baptism

[Amberlight]

Jesus and the apostles did not say one must be baptised to be saved, You are.

What is your issue with baptism ?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

What is your issue with baptism ?

i think his issue is in saying anything other than Jesus and faith in Him saves


not at all with baptism

 

[hornetguy]

Jesus and the apostles did not say one must be baptised to be saved, You are.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. [SUP]19 [/SUP][SUP][e][/SUP]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you [SUP][f][/SUP]always, even to the end of the age.”

[SUP]37 [/SUP]Now when they heard this, they were [SUP][aj][/SUP]pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “[SUP][ak][/SUP]Brethren, [SUP][al][/SUP]what shall we do?” [SUP]38 [/SUP]Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” [SUP]40 [/SUP]And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “[SUP][am][/SUP]Be saved from this perverse generation!” [SUP]41 [/SUP]So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand [SUP][an][/SUP]souls. [SUP]42 [/SUP]They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and [SUP][ao][/SUP]to prayer.

I don't know why you don't think this is important.... it was commanded by both Jesus and the apostles.

And, you really need to stop trying to put words in my mouth. I can find you probably 100 quotes of me saying "we are saved by grace through faith".... I have not said that baptism "saves" us. That is only you projecting what you want me to be saying, so that you can denounce me.... games at best, slander and lies at worst.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't know why you don't think this is important.... it was commanded by both Jesus and the apostles.

And, you really need to stop trying to put words in my mouth. I can find you probably 100 quotes of me saying "we are saved by grace through faith".... I have not said that baptism "saves" us. That is only you projecting what you want me to be saying, so that you can denounce me.... games at best, slander and lies at worst.

your the one who says baptism is required. Either you believe it or not.

Neither one of the passages you posted say baptism is a requirement to be saved.

talk about slander. Can you tell me where I said baptism was not important? Or i have slammed baptism as something one can just ignore. And should not obey?

Your the one slandering my friend, All I am doing is asking you to stop saying baptism is a requirment when it is not. It is a command yes, A requirement? That would make salvation by works, not grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What is your issue with baptism ?

I have no issue with baptism,

I have an issue with people trying to add it as a work required fort a person to be saved.

 

[mailmandan]

I have no issue with baptism,

I have an issue with people trying to add it as a work required fort a person to be saved.

Amen! I believe that water baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

 

[Nehemiah6]

your the one who says baptism is required. Either you believe it or not.

You responded to hornetguy's post which you quoted, and which also made it clear that he does not believe that baptism is required for salvation. So what was the reason for making this statement? I believe that most of us understand that water baptism is a command to believers, so it is a requirement. But it does not save anyone.

At the same time, there are two Bible passage which *appear* to say that baptism is required for salvation. Mark 16:15,16 and Acts 2:38. However, the rest of the New Testament makes it clear that water baptism FOLLOWS conversion and salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You responded to hornetguy's post which you quoted, and which also made it clear that he does not believe that baptism is required for salvation. So what was the reason for making this statement? I believe that most of us understand that water baptism is a command to believers, so it is a requirement. But it does not save anyone.

At the same time, there are two Bible passage which *appear* to say that baptism is required for salvation. Mark 16:15,16 and Acts 2:38. However, the rest of the New Testament makes it clear that water baptism FOLLOWS conversion and salvation.

He says baptism is required. (My only beef is the word required)

either it is required or it is not. People need to make up their minds, then stick with it.

As I explained, sayi9ng something is required MAKES it a prerequisite.

If you do not think it is required to be saved, then STOP saying it is required. Thats all I ask. Otherwise, You are giving people a false impression of what you believe.


As for the two chapters. Acts 2 sis peter commanding all who have been given the HS because they repented to be baptised because they recieved remission of sin.

Mark 16 is not even in most bibles and can not be trusted, It is not repeated anyplace else. Even thought the same conversation is recorded other places with no mention of baptism.

And many people teach one must be baptised to be saved, So please. Do not say no one teaches it.

 

[PJW]

Romans 6 speaks of HS baptism, No man and no water can raise us to new life, only God immersing us into Christ and his death and burial can.

I don't agree.
How can HS baptism "bury"us?

Acts 2: 30 does not say baptism washes our sin away, It says repentance does (actually the faith whcih comes from true repentance does)

Your POV cancels out Col 2:11-13.
As I stand by water baptism being our "immersion" into Christ's death, resulting in the death of the old man and his burial and resurrection with Christ, perhaps we should look at the finished result; listed in Rom 6:7??
"For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Did your HS baptism result in a life free from sin?
That would be the indicator of it's efficiency.

Before you ask...yes, I am free from sinning. Thanks be to God in Jesus' name.

 

[PJW]

In regards to Romans 6:3-7, as Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance.

The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forward to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

*See post #33 on Acts 2:38. - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/157961-baptism-2.html

It seems you have chosen to follow "symbols" instead of reality.

Has your "symbolism" allowed you to be free from sin?
That is the outcome listed by Paul for "immersion" into Christ and into Hi=s death, burial, and resurrection. (Rom 6:7)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't agree.
How can HS baptism "bury"us?

How can your pastor bury you in christs death when it happened over 2000 years ago? All he can do is immerse you in water,

but God can, he can take us back 2000 years and immerse us into the death and burial of christ (the literal translation of romans 6, baptism is just a transliteration, not a translation)

I did not say HS baptism burys us by the way, I said the HS Bury's us, that is HS baptism.

Your POV cancels out Col 2:11-13.
As I stand by water baptism being our "immersion" into Christ's death, resulting in the death of the old man and his burial and resurrection with Christ, perhaps we should look at the finished result; listed in Rom 6:7??
"For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Did your HS baptism result in a life free from sin?
That would be the indicator of it's efficiency.

Before you ask...yes, I am free from sinning. Thanks be to God in Jesus' name.

Col 2 agrees with me, it is not the physical circumcision done but man, or the water baptism done by man, it is the spiritual circumcision done by the hands of God through the spirit baptism done by the HS Himself.

There is no water baptism in romans 6 or Col 2.

Also, Titus 3: 5 explains it, Not by works of righteousness which we have done (water baptism would be a work of righteousness we do) but by HIS MERCY, HE SAVED US by the WASHING and renewal (new birth) of the HS.

 

[PJW]

Ananias said to Paul "What are you waiting for, arise, be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
Only Christ blood washes away sin, and baptism puts us in Christ's death where He shed His blood (Romans 6:3),
BINGO!
We have a winner!

and God uses it during baptism to perform circumcision of the heart. (Colossians 2:11,12).

Yes, He uses our "immersion" into Christ's death to kill the old man...entirely, and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

 

[He_reigns]

How can your pastor bury you in christs death when it happened over 2000 years ago? All he can do is immerse you in water,

but God can, he can take us back 2000 years and immerse us into the death and burial of christ (the literal translation of romans 6, baptism is just a transliteration, not a translation)

I did not say HS baptism burys us by the way, I said the HS Bury's us, that is HS baptism.



Col 2 agrees with me, it is not the physical circumcision done but man, or the water baptism done by man, it is the spiritual circumcision done by the hands of God through the spirit baptism done by the HS Himself.

There is no water baptism in romans 6 or Col 2.

Also, Titus 3: 5 explains it, Not by works of righteousness which we have done (water baptism would be a work of righteousness we do) but by HIS MERCY, HE SAVED US by the WASHING and renewal (new birth) of the HS.

The Bible says Jesus' Baptizes us in the Holy Spirit and The Holy Spirit baptizes us in Jesus. Is this what you are trying to say, when you say it is the HS baptism?

Romans 6 is about the Holy Spirit baptizing us in the body of Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

It seems you have chosen to follow "symbols" instead of reality.

Has your "symbolism" allowed you to be free from sin?
That is the outcome listed by Paul for "immersion" into Christ and into Hi=s death, burial, and resurrection. (Rom 6:7)

A symbol (water baptism) is not the reality (Spirit baptism), but is the picture of the reality. So in addition to teaching baptismal regeneration, do you also teach sinless perfection?

 

[PJW]

How can your pastor bury you in Christs death when it happened over 2000 years ago? All he can do is immerse you in water,
but God can, he can take us back 2000 years and immerse us into the death and burial of christ (the literal translation of romans 6, baptism is just a transliteration, not a translation)

Thanks for answering your own question.
In spite of your added confusings.

I did not say HS baptism burys us by the way, I said the HS Bury's us, that is HS baptism.

Scripture please.

Col 2 agrees with me, it is not the physical circumcision done but man, or the water baptism done by man, it is the spiritual circumcision done by the hands of God through the spirit baptism done by the HS Himself.
There is no water baptism in romans 6 or Col 2.

If not, then the results written of by Paul in Romans 6:7 should be evident in you. ie "He that is dead is freed from sin."
Are you a non-sinner since the death, burial, and resurrection (with Christ) of your old self?

Also, Titus 3: 5 explains it, Not by works of righteousness which we have done (water baptism would be a work of righteousness we do) but by HIS MERCY, HE SAVED US by the WASHING and renewal (new birth) of the HS.

Romans 6:7 would be the proof of your POV

 

[PJW]

How can your pastor bury you in Christs death when it happened over 2000 years ago? All he can do is immerse you in water,
but God can, he can take us back 2000 years and immerse us into the death and burial of christ (the literal translation of romans 6, baptism is just a transliteration, not a translation)

Thanks for answering your own question.
In spite of your added confusings.

I did not say HS baptism burys us by the way, I said the HS Bury's us, that is HS baptism.

Scripture please.

Col 2 agrees with me, it is not the physical circumcision done but man, or the water baptism done by man, it is the spiritual circumcision done by the hands of God through the spirit baptism done by the HS Himself.
There is no water baptism in romans 6 or Col 2.

If not, then the results written of by Paul in Romans 6:7 should be evident in you. ie "He that is dead is freed from sin."
Are you a non-sinner since the death, burial, and resurrection (with Christ) of your old self?

Also, Titus 3: 5 explains it, Not by works of righteousness which we have done (water baptism would be a work of righteousness we do) but by HIS MERCY, HE SAVED US by the WASHING and renewal (new birth) of the HS.

Romans 6:7 would be the proof of your POV

 

[PJW]

A symbol (water baptism) is not the reality (Spirit baptism), but is the picture of the reality. So in addition to teaching baptismal regeneration, do you also teach sinless perfection?

They are both reality.
Yes, I do teach, and live, sinless perfection.
It is the result of a true repentance from sin, and of the death of the old man.

In Acts 2:38, Peter said that you would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost AFTER repentance and baptism.
Only once was a different sequence shown in scripture, and that was Cornelius's household and the first of the Gentiles to be converted...a special case.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Bible says Jesus' Baptizes us in the Holy Spirit and The Holy Spirit baptizes us in Jesus. Is this what you are trying to say, when you say it is the HS baptism?

Romans 6 is about the Holy Spirit baptizing us in the body of Christ.

Yes, Roman 6 is about the HS baptizing us into christ, that is what I was saying, that is the baptism of the spirit. Jesus said he must leave, so he could send the spirit. That is one of the spirit jobs Aklso seen in Titus 3: 5

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thanks for answering your own question.
In spite of your added confusings.


Scripture please.[/B][/COLOR]


If not, then the results written of by Paul in Romans 6:7 should be evident in you. ie "He that is dead is freed from sin."
Are you a non-sinner since the death, burial, and resurrection (with Christ) of your old self?


Romans 6:7 would be the proof of your POV

You make no sense at all. Can you please try to redo this. And actually answer what I said.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They are both reality.
Yes, I do teach, and live, sinless perfection.
It is the result of a true repentance from sin, and of the death of the old man.

In Acts 2:38, Peter said that you would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost AFTER repentance and baptism.
Only once was a different sequence shown in scripture, and that was Cornelius's household and the first of the Gentiles to be converted...a special case.

Oh boy, another worker who is a perfectionalist. Or have you been here before?

John proves you wrong as far as sin goes. And says you have decieved yourself if you claim to be without sin.