Not By Works

[VCO]

I'm pretty sure you have dismissed yourself from that demand for perfection in YOUR belief that saved people have to produce works because that's what faith does, right? So why don't you cut them the same slack?

You not only have swallowed a LIE about what we teach and believe, but YOU also REFUSE to believe what we say when we do explain our beliefs to you.

Because we are SAVED (BORN AGAIN) with the Holy Spirit in us, WHO poured GOD's Love into our hearts; out of that LOVE from GOD in our heart, IT WILL PRODUCE IN OUR NEW BORN AGAIN SPIRIT a strong desire to show LOVE for GOD by obeying HIM.

"HAVE TO PRODUCE WORKS" is a LIE ABOUT US.

WILL WANT TO PRODUCE WORKS AS AN ACT OF LOVE FOR GOD IS THE TRUTH.

HE BIRTHED our Born Again human spirit, giving it a NEW ABILITY TO LOVE GOD, and as we mature spiritually OUR Born Again Human Spirit will become dominant over our carnal MIND between our ears.

The way you phrase things, and KEEP focusing on phrases VOID OF LOVE; you give us every reason to suspect you have NEVER been born again.

 

[PHart]

Are you saying I have said this? Please show me where.

Just tell us.....is there ANYTHING a believer can say, or do, or think that can cause them to lose their salvation? If you say, 'no', then you say that grace is a license to sin.

If you are already justified and sanctified, does that mean you reject that, aside from being positionally sanctified (set apart), there is no process you go through to become progressively more Christ like?

No, I do not reject that. I made reference to the fact that we spend the rest of our lives growing up into actually acting like the set apart vessels that we became the moment we believed.

I thought your whole position was based on such a premise. It is funny you call yourself (and everyone else!) a spiritual idiot, but then turn around and say you can recognize true believers by certain qualities, when you have also said that everything can be faked (except the love of God).

The true, sacrificial love of God can not be faked--that's how you can recognize a true believer. What do I need to explain about being able to recognize true believers?

John spoke about telling us things so that we would KNOW we have eternal life, which means we are saved, and can know it.

And so what was it exactly that John said that makes it so we know we have eternal life? Do you know? It isn't that your gums are flapping, saying, "I believe in God". And he surely didn't say you know you have eternal life by saying, "I believe I can't lose my salvation." No, he said you know that you are saved by how you act:


"3By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked." (1 John 2:3-6 NASB)

There is much more in his letter, but this covers it very well.

A believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit of God. We are promised that He would not lose any given to Him, that He would complete the work begun in us. I don't see that as a license to sin when God gives us new desires. I wonder why you keep brushing these truths of Scripture aside.

I'm not brushing them aside. I'm telling you what the Bible says. These promises are conditioned on you staying in Christ through your continued believing. He doesn't do these things for those who are not in him because of a return to unbelief.

What you say would mean something if we could see that the church was indeed walking in new desires. But it's not. Even the world knows that. We are a joke. A big fat joke. We are the laughing stock because we act just like the world while we condemn them for 'their' ungodliness. I know I'm posting a lot.....I hope I'm not keeping anyone from their 'Game of Thrones' viewing, lol.

If you want to have a OSAS discussion I have found the best thing to do is put your scriptures along side mine and that will show that the interpretation of your scriptures you use to defend OSAS nullify my scriptures (which obviously must not be done), but my interpretation of my scriptures do not nullify your scriptures. Try it.

 

[PHart]

You not only have swallowed a LIE about what we teach and believe, but YOU also REFUSE to believe what we say when we do explain our beliefs to you.

Because we are SAVED (BORN AGAIN) with the Holy Spirit in us, WHO poured GOD's Love into our hearts; out of that LOVE from GOD in our heart, IT WILL PRODUCE IN OUR NEW BORN AGAIN SPIRIT a strong desire to show LOVE for GOD by obeying HIM.

"HAVE TO PRODUCE WORKS" is a LIE ABOUT US.

WILL WANT TO PRODUCE WORKS AS AN ACT OF LOVE FOR GOD IS THE TRUTH.

HE BIRTHED our Born Again human spirit, giving it a NEW ABILITY TO LOVE GOD, and as we mature spiritually OUR Born Again Human Spirit will become dominant over our carnal MIND between our ears.

The way you phrase things, and KEEP focusing on phrases VOID OF LOVE; you give us every reason to suspect you have NEVER been born again.

Listen to yourself: You said, "...LOVE from GOD in our heart, IT WILL PRODUCE IN OUR NEW BORN AGAIN SPIRIT a strong desire to show LOVE for GOD by obeying HIM." How is that not having to produce works? You have to have that result in your life, or you're not saved. How can you not see that is exactly what you folks are saying? But when we say it all of a sudden it means 'trying to earn your own salvation'.

 

[PHart]

There are those who DO say that...

Who?
Seriously, who?

...and that people in the OT did as well.

Do you know the definition of 'blameless'?
It does NOT mean sinlessly perfect.

Have you really never met any of them that claim to be without sin? How very odd.

I heard a woman on a call in show claim that 1 John was saying believers don't sin. That's the only person I have ever heard claim that they do not sin.

Other odd situations I have encountered here are those who keep saying they would rather tell the truth to others and risk offending them, but are then offended when the truth is told to them.

I see offense on your team. I see people getting unfairly provoked on my team.

Likewise peculiar those who claim we need to accept the truth of Scripture while they in turn deny it, such as people who reject the divinity of Jesus Christ, for example. This place certainly lacks nothing in terms of contradictory people who do not see themselves very well.

Start another thread about it. We're talking about being observant here (you know what that means, right?). You people don't seem to understand Romans 14 very well. They are observant because their conscience won't allow them to observe the church's pagan holidays because that would be unloving and unfaithful to God. But all you people can hear is they are trying to justify themselves by keeping the Mosaic observances. Even when it's plainly explained to you why they are doing it!

 

[dcontroversal]

Funny. You have not answered me at all, and now you lie. I suppose this is your idea of keeping the law? I always find it interesting how often people who claim we must keep the law, break it themselves.

Regularly I might add......the same ones that push a law abiding, working for, I must keep myself saved dogma regularly do things that break the very law and working for dogma they espouse.........and then hammer us because we state clearly that JESUS saves by faith, based upon grace and any good deed, work etc. produced are the result of Christ in us by faith.....crazy...

 

[Hizikyah]

DC is this true:

Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”

You are not getting what I am saying. Some obey Yah Commands/Law/Instructions/Torah because it is the right way to live, and they want to live for Yah. You seem to ignore this and go straight to justificaion by works. I assume this is why you seem to ignore or not believe many Scriptures like the following;

If not can you tell me your understanding of these 3 passages;

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of יהוה and the belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”




1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”

Dc may I get a breakdown of these 3 passages?

 

[dcontroversal]

Oh my, first you claim he did not even touch on the passages, now you are changing your tune but finding fault with me for pointing out your error? You people never admit when you are wrong, do you? Are you one of those sinless perfectionists?

He is a self appointed HEBREW that keeps the law by his own admission.....even though NO one but JESUS has ever kept the law.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Justification is a one-time event that is completed the moment you believe. And Christ is the rock that holds up that declaration of righteousness (justification). Although the justification Christ secured on our behalf is complete, His sacrifice and ministry that obtained that justification must continually be before God on our behalf holding up the justification it secures. But since he always lives to do that there is no danger of his ministry and sacrifice petering out like a sputtering Sopwith Camel aeroplane in a Snoopy cartoon causing us to lose our justification. That's what was wrong with the Levitical priesthood. It was not sustainable as to keep the worshiper justified, I mean in regard to the things that the law could forgive--Acts 13:39 (some things could not be forgiven through the Levitical priesthood--murder, adultery, etc.).

The only other way Christ can cease interceding before God for our completed and ongoing justification is if we stop believing in Christ. Hebrews 10:26 is clear that if you stop believing and go back in a willful return to the world no sacrifice for sin remains for you. You lose the efficacy of Christ's ministry toward justification. He becomes of no effect to you toward justification if you stop believing in Him for justification and instead turn to something else, or nothing else, to justify you (Galatians 5:2,4).




Are you aware that you are already sanctified? It also happened the moment you believed. You were set apart for a holy purpose the moment you believed. What is ongoing about it is you are going to now live an entire life acting out your 'set apartness' (your sanctification) in actual deeds until the day you die.



I wouldn't say too many have been tainted by the erroneous Catholic doctrine that says justification happens over and over and over again. I see way more people in the church tainted by the erroneous Protestant doctrine that you can not lose the completed justification that Christ secured for you and keeps secure for you through your continuing believing (Hebrews 7:25).

Christ must continue to minister through his one-time for all time sacrifice for you to stay completely justified as you are now. That's why you have to continue to believe. Believing is what lays hold of his ministry in heaven for you. But too many people in the church thinks the completed justification you have received means you can't lose it, thinking that if you could lose it that means you have to work to keep it. No, you have to continue to believe to keep the completed justification you have in Christ.

This has got to be one of the biggest cake taking posts I have ever seen.......there is not ne verse that states that JESUS ever stops mediating for those who are saved......and this post reeks of deceit that is contrary tothe bible......

 

[dcontroversal]

There you go again, proving your l;ack of understanding, Give it up dude, Your a slanderer, No one is giving anyone a license to sin. Repent dude, repent!

Must be more of him keeping himself saved rigmarole....

 

[dcontroversal]

REPEAT....don't EVER play the 'nobody can keep the law' card again. NOBODY here is saying they keep the law perfectly. Got it? They rely on the blood of Christ for forgiveness when they fall short just like the rest of us (well, most of us).

Either one KEEPS the law 24/7/365 or they DO NOT KEEP THE LAW AT ALL! <---ACE in the hole!

 

[dcontroversal]

When you say there is NOTHING the believer can say, or do, or think to lose his salvation you are making the grace of God a license to do anything.

No not really....what she is doing is understanding fully.....WHERE SIN ABOUNDS, GRACE did MUCH MORE ABOUND.....You should try grace and genuine faith into JESUS....he really does save eternally!

 

[PHart]

Your right, it does,

1. It calls them antichrists
2. It says they never had faith to begin with. And were never a true part of the church. For if they were a true part. Then never would have left. And rejected christ.

Next.

As long as you ignore vs. 24 (and the fact that 'never' is not even in the verse) I guess that's what you're going to erroneously believe. Hebrews 10 is so clear about the danger of the believer going back to unbelief that it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[preacher4truth]

Justification is a one-time event that is completed the moment you believe. And Christ is the rock that holds up that declaration of righteousness (justification). Although the justification Christ secured on our behalf is complete, His sacrifice and ministry that obtained that justification must continually be before God on our behalf holding up the justification it secures. But since he always lives to do that there is no danger of his ministry and sacrifice petering out like a sputtering Sopwith Camel aeroplane in a Snoopy cartoon causing us to lose our justification. That's what was wrong with the Levitical priesthood. It was not sustainable as to keep the worshiper justified, I mean in regard to the things that the law could forgive--Acts 13:39 (some things could not be forgiven through the Levitical priesthood--murder, adultery, etc.).

The only other way Christ can cease interceding before God for our completed and ongoing justification is if we stop believing in Christ. Hebrews 10:26 is clear that if you stop believing and go back in a willful return to the world no sacrifice for sin remains for you. You lose the efficacy of Christ's ministry toward justification. He becomes of no effect to you toward justification if you stop believing in Him for justification and instead turn to something else, or nothing else, to justify you (Galatians 5:2,4).




Are you aware that you are already sanctified? It also happened the moment you believed. You were set apart for a holy purpose the moment you believed. What is ongoing about it is you are going to now live an entire life acting out your 'set apartness' (your sanctification) in actual deeds until the day you die.



I wouldn't say too many have been tainted by the erroneous Catholic doctrine that says justification happens over and over and over again. I see way more people in the church tainted by the erroneous Protestant doctrine that you can not lose the completed justification that Christ secured for you and keeps secure for you through your continuing believing (Hebrews 7:25).

Christ must continue to minister through his one-time for all time sacrifice for you to stay completely justified as you are now. That's why you have to continue to believe. Believing is what lays hold of his ministry in heaven for you. But too many people in the church thinks the completed justification you have received means you can't lose it, thinking that if you could lose it that means you have to work to keep it. No, you have to continue to believe to keep the completed justification you have in Christ.

Utter nonsense. Obviously you don't understand or know the Gospel. Your downgrading of the person, work and ministry of Christ is committed without shame or even batting an eye.

 

[PHart]

No not really....what she is doing is understanding fully.....WHERE SIN ABOUNDS, GRACE did MUCH MORE ABOUND.....You should try grace and genuine faith into JESUS....he really does save eternally!

Grace does not follow the ex-believer back into his unbelief. You can believe that believers can never not believe, or that they are still saved even if they do, but Hebrews 10 is very clear what the fate of the ex-believer is.

You have to continue to believe to continue to be protected by the sacrifice of Christ for the Day of Salvation.

 

[preacher4truth]

Grace does not follow the ex-believer back into his unbelief.

Made up doctrine of a false gospel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As long as you ignore vs. 24 (and the fact that 'never' is not even in the verse) I guess that's what you're going to erroneously believe. Hebrews 10 is so clear about the danger of the believer going back to unbelief that it doesn't matter anyway.

Lol. He said, "If they were of us, they never would have departed, but they departed to expose the fact they were NEVER OF US.

Sorry, but, Bs 24 does nbot negate what he said in the earlier verse. Where NEVER is used.

 

[VCO]

Listen to yourself: You said, "...LOVE from GOD in our heart, IT WILL PRODUCE IN OUR NEW BORN AGAIN SPIRIT a strong desire to show LOVE for GOD by obeying HIM." How is that not having to produce works? You have to have that result in your life, or you're not saved. How can you not see that is exactly what you folks are saying? But when we say it all of a sudden it means 'trying to earn your own salvation'.

1 Corinthians 2:7-14 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"--
[SUP]10 [/SUP] but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Either one KEEPS the law 24/7/365 or they DO NOT KEEP THE LAW AT ALL! <---ACE in the hole!

Just in case

James said, if we break the least of the commands (1 sin) we are guilty of the whole law

Moses and Paul both said, cursed is everyone who does not confirm AND OBEY EVER WORD.

 

[PHart]

Utter nonsense. Obviously you don't understand or know the Gospel. Your downgrading of the person, work and ministry of Christ is committed without shame or even batting an eye.

I have no reason to be ashamed of saying God's grace does not apply to the UNBELIEVER. I can't even believe that the church has to be told this.

You have to continue to believe to continue to be saved. Christ's ministry is an ongoing ministry and sacrifice (Hebrews 7:25), which shows us the necessity of it having to be continually applied . Not continually sacrificed, continually applied on our behalf. And that happens through YOUR FAITH. If you stop believing, Christ's sacrifice ceases to represent you before the Father. It does not remain for the person who goes back to the world (Hebrews 10:26). It only remains for the believer.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Grace does not follow the ex-believer back into his unbelief. You can believe that believers can never not believe, or that they are still saved even if they do, but Hebrews 10 is very clear what the fate of the ex-believer is.

You have to continue to believe to continue to be protected by the sacrifice of Christ for the Day of Salvation.

Hebrews 10 does not negate 1 John 2 either

Get over it, They Left because they were NEVER OF US.

You have no arguments, give it up/