Not By Works

LoveGodForever · Oct 15, 2017

I speak the truth in love yet you judge me? I judge righteous judgment which is God's Word that says he that says he knows him and keeps not his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. It is because of love that I share God's Word. It is my duty of love that I say we need to fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come. Only those that are born again can see the garden of Eden. Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. Only the blind can see. It is hard to kick against the pricks....

PHart · Oct 15, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

To which I say, using your own words:

eternally-gratefull said:

You and countless other Protestants simply do not understand their argument. They feel compelled by conscience to be observant for the same reason you and I are compelled by conscience to not steal, or murder, or lie. We don't do it to justify ourselves and neither do they. I don't know if you people refuse to understand the argument or you are simply incapable of understanding it. I tend to lean toward the latter.

PHart · Oct 15, 2017

PennEd said:

This is about enduring in your BELIEVING. Work is just the outward sign of that believing. We have so many people in the church today thinking they are enduring in their faith in Christ without the lifestyle of faith to prove it because they have been told that to even think they have to have a lifestyle of faith to go along with their believing is to think they are saved by their works.

PennEd said:

It is the endurance of my BELIEVING that lays hold of Jesus' sacrifice that saves. No faith = no power of God in Christ for salvation. What is it about that that you do not understand????

PennEd said:

You are Protestant. That's why you can not fathom that faith and works go hand in hand. You have been taught that to include the word 'works' in any way in a discussion about faith is to believe that you are saved by your works, oblivious to the fact that genuine faith is signified by what it does.

And all of this is complicated for you by the erroneous doctrine that you have been taught that a believer can not lose his salvation no matter what he thinks, does, or says. In fact, I'm pretty sure OSAS is the exact reason you are blind to the faith/works connection. Still, even now, I'm confident that you think I just said salvation is by faith + works. That's how deep this disturbing indoctrination of the enemy goes in the church today. You can't 'hear' a word I'm actually saying. You can only hear what you've been programmed by OSAS to hear.

PennEd said:

Yes, I know....stop believing and instead start trusting in Christ for your salvation. The sad part being you don't even know how pathetically absurd and nonsensical that is. I'm enduring in my trusting of Christ for my salvation, yet you tell me to stop doing that and start trusting in Christ for my salvation. Listen to yourselves, folks. Good grief, lol.

preacher4truth · Oct 15, 2017

Here is a bit of info on these pushing SDA doctrine, such as LoveGodForever who deny this while claiming to be non-denominational:

"SDAs use an effective, but deceptive, method of evangelism Adventists are very good at using mass media and sponsor many localevangelistic meetings often advertised as non-denominational Bible lectures orRevelation Seminars. They continue to target Christians in other churches as wellas unbelievers and baptize people by the thousands in all parts of the world."

They do this so others won't catch on to the fact they are a cult.

Source: http://www.lifeassuranceministries.com/pdf files/sprolet.pdf

PHart · Oct 15, 2017

preacher4truth said:

Faith is God's gift to you so you can then believe in what the gift of faith (the gift of 'knowing') has shown you to be true. Believing is what YOU do in response to God's gift of faith. God does not do your believing for you. He gives you the ability to believe. You do the believing. And if you thin that's a works gospel all you have to do is post the scripture that explains that believing is a work of the damnable works gospel. Do that and you will have won. I will leave and never come back. Can you do it? Of course you can't. There is no scripture that says believing is a self righteous work. But there is one that explains how trusting in Christ for justification is exactly opposite work:

"5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5 NASB)

See? Paul is not saying believing is on the side of works as you and others are insisting. He directly CONTRASTS them. But you folks keep telling me my believing is the work that can not justify.

preacher4truth said:

How does God not withdrawing his promise to later generations of Isrealites, even though they rejected Him while he was on earth, somehow mean once a person believes they are forever and irretrievably saved? Context, p4t, context!

preacher4truth said:

Don't you realize that makes believing to the very end required in your doctrine, too, or else you're not really saved, lol?

If you want to argue that the true believer can never stop believing, that's fine. But you should be aware that makes believing to the very end required in salvation. And yet you beat me up for saying it, too.

preacher4truth said:

So now you are H-grace. I suspected that underneath these Calvinist ideas being represented here lies closet H-grace adherents. No unbeliever or ex-believer will be saved on the day of Judgment. I can't believe the church is now believing that people who do not trust in Christ will be saved on the Day of God's Wrath. I'm confident this is because so many unbelievers were lured into the church starting in the 90's with fun fairs and hot dogs and bouncy tents that they are now rewriting the doctrines of Christianity from within to suit their selfish desires that we catered to in order to lure them into the church.

preacher4truth said:

All you have to do is post the passage of scripture that says believing is my work of self righteousness and you will have made your point. But we now that scripture does not exist. I posted the scripture that says it is not.

preacher4truth said:

It's funny how you say the believer can never stop believing, but then you say out the other side of your mouth that the one who has departed the faith is still saved. I hope to God you are not in the ministry. I mean that. You are very confused.

PennEd · Oct 15, 2017

PHart said:

This is about enduring in your BELIEVING. Work is just the outward sign of that believing. We have so many people in the church today thinking they are enduring in their faith in Christ without the lifestyle of faith to prove it because they have been told that to even think they have to have a lifestyle of faith to go along with their believing is to think they are saved by their works.

It is the endurance of my BELIEVING that lays hold of Jesus' sacrifice that saves. No faith = no power of God in Christ for salvation. What is it about that that you do not understand????

You are Protestant. That's why you can not fathom that faith and works go hand in hand. You have been taught that to include the word 'works' in any way in a discussion about faith is to believe that you are saved by your works, oblivious to the fact that genuine faith is signified by what it does.

And all of this is complicated for you by the erroneous doctrine that you have been taught that a believer can not lose his salvation no matter what he thinks, does, or says. In fact, I'm pretty sure OSAS is the exact reason you are blind to the faith/works connection. Still, even now, I'm confident that you think I just said salvation is by faith + works. That's how deep this disturbing indoctrination of the enemy goes in the church today. You can't 'hear' a word I'm actually saying. You can only hear what you've been programmed by OSAS to hear.

Yes, I know....stop believing and instead start trusting in Christ for your salvation. The sad part being you don't even know how pathetically absurd and nonsensical that is. I'm enduring in my trusting of Christ for my salvation, yet you tell me to stop doing that and start trusting in Christ for my salvation. Listen to yourselves, folks. Good grief, lol.

Yeah... 8 yrs catholic school, most of large family remains catholic, intimately familiar with their heretical works doctrines, and your post is crystal clear to me.

You depend on YOU for your salvation. I rest in Jesus Christ, and depend on His Spirit to sanctify me, and do the works He has set for me.

Studyman · Oct 15, 2017

PHart said:

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Some food for thought PH,

satan uses God's Word to deceive God's people into disobeying Him. That is its goal. To turn us away from obedience to God. The one common thread in all the faith examples of the Bible is their submission to God's Laws (His Righteousness) There is no way you can read the Bible and not see the importance of God's Laws in man's life. It would be a no brainer if it wasn't for satan using God's own words to confuse and deceive as it did to Eve.

Matt. 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

This must be pretty important to remember. "Take Heed" He says. Take heed of what?

5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

There is only one group of people on the planet that fit's this description and that is "Christianity".

Can you show me where that is not correct?

So Jesus could have warned about Atheists or Islam or heathens. But He didn't. He warned them and us about "Christians" who claim Jesus is truly the Messiah, deceiving us. And how will they deceive us? What does it mean to deceive? Is it not teaching lies about God and His Word?

Is it not "Teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men"?

Did the Apostles understand this?

2 Cor. 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

So there can be no question, as far as the Bible is concerned, that satan is in "MANY" Mainstream Christian churches and it is working to deceive us.

Deceive us into what? Obeying God as Jesus did? Or disobeying God as Eve did. It is really so simple even a child can understand. But this wicked influence Jesus warned us of has muddied the waters to the point where most just don't know what is truth and what is not.

As a result we have hundreds of denominations with thousands of churches all preaching slightly different doctrines.

But they all have one thing in common. They all preach that we are not obligated to obey God's Commandments. They refuse to know and accept that the "Works of the Law" Paul speaks of is the separate Levitical Priesthood sacrifices and ceremonies God gave to a people He separated from all others. They falsely preach that the "Works of the Law" are not the sacrifices God initiated for the remission of sins until the Seed should come, but the he is talking about the 10 commandments, Holy Days and creation laws.

It used to be, before Jesus, that if I sinned, I went and found a Levite Priest who performed ceremonial, sacrificial, "words and Deeds of this Law" to cleanse me of my sins. But now that Jesus has come, we are no longer "Justified by the Law", or by the blood of Goats. We are now under Grace for remission of sins, not the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins. This is the New Covenant.

But this has nothing to do with the definition of sin. That's why Paul said.

1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

He isn't talking about being justified by the blood of goats here, he is talking about the Faith of Abraham and the "works" that show our Faith.

Just remember that there were laws in place, before Jesus, that were used to justify sin. Then Jesus the Seed came. But the Mainstream Church of that time couldn't accept that their Priesthood, with their social power, free money, importance in society was gone. So they killed Jesus and continued to preach their man made doctrines and perform these Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for justification and remission of sins.

Even some "believers" pushed this Old Covenant.

Acts. 15:But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

It was this continued doctrine that was preached to the Galatians.

Gal. 1:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, (blood of goats and Levitical ceremonies) or by the hearing of faith? (Repentance and belief in Christ's Blood for the remission of sins.)

The idea that the Galatians were tricked, or bewitched, into obeying God's Commandments is foolish of course, yet this is what "many" on this forum are preaching. It makes no sense to engage them given they refuse to respond to scripture that brings their doctrine into question.

Mainstream Christianity will never accept this truth because it destroys the very foundation of their belief. Jesus knows this and therefore He warned us, and specifically I might add.

I know this is a lot to swallow but after reading your posts it is evident that you know something is wrong with Mainstream preaching.

Think about this in closing. Do you know that the Mainstream Christian Church in it's entirety are the largest purveyors of disobedience to the God of Abraham on the planet?

I'll take some arrows for that statement but you think about that for a moment.

Rejection of Sabbaths, Holy Days, definition of clean and unclean, Holy and Unholy. Images of God/Jesus created after their own imaginations. I could go on and on. Given these absolute facts we can see if we stand back and look, doesn't that shed a whole new light on Jesus warning to "Take Heed"?

Love your posts PH

Hope you don't mind the intrusion.

He_reigns · Oct 15, 2017

dcontroversal said:

You state Romans 5:20-21 and stop, but this is not the rest of the Gospel.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, [SUP]21 [/SUP]so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

What you do not ever state is the continuation of Romans 5:20-21 which says this:

Romans 6:1-19

6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?[SUP]2 [/SUP]May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [SUP]7 [/SUP]for he who has died is freed from sin.[SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! [SUP]16 [/SUP]Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? [SUP]17 [/SUP]But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, [SUP]18 [/SUP]and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. [SUP]19 [/SUP]I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

You say the complete opposite, that SIN is not the issue because of Grace abounding over your sin, but Paul says you are your band of merry little men, are wrong. Spiritual maturity is not sinning just because you have grace. Spiritual maturity is understanding that where saving grace stops, empowering grace, takes over, Romans 5:18-21 is not talking about saving grace, it is talking about empowering grace that abounds over your sin, but should also empower you to not continue to sin. Just as Romans 6 says. Empowering grace is a result of being Justified by Christ and him alone.

Now I fully expect you to shift gears and tell me I am pushing sinless perfection, but I am not.

Romans 5:18- Romans 6:23 is one complete thought and truth.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. [SUP]20 [/SUP]The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, [SUP]21 [/SUP]so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? [SUP]2 [/SUP]May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [SUP]7 [/SUP]for he who has died is freed from sin.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, [SUP]9 [/SUP]knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! [SUP]16 [/SUP]Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? [SUP]17 [/SUP]But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, [SUP]18 [/SUP]and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. [SUP]19 [/SUP]I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

dcontroversal · Oct 15, 2017

preacher4truth said:

PHart's wording is off, which shows just how easy it is to have a false gospel message.

It isn't that a person MUST CONTINUE to believe, as if this were some effort on their part. Faith is first God's gift. Secondly, salvation in all of its phases is secured and irrevocable as per Romans 8:28-39. To believe in vain is not to have truly believed.

That a believer believes until the end is redundant, it is what a true convert does, it is what God does in them and through them, Philippians 1:6 &c. There is not one verse of Scripture that shows any person ever lost salvation. Depart from the faith? Yes. That is not loss of salvation.

PHart makes all this about what a person must do with effort or the person will not make it into heaven. Frankly, his asinine obsession with this effort is disturbing. It is to the point of being mental.

The workers have tricked themselves by misinterpretation into believing their efforts are not works. It's like:

"Concentrate really hard now, today, keep believing! Don't stop! Concentrate! CAREFUL!!!!!!!!! Do you believe now? Right now? In 5 minutes? Tomorrow????? CAREFUL!!! Hey, don't stop believing!!!!! Are you sure you believe????? Did you STOP? Watch out!!!!! Careful!!! Do you believe like RIGHT NOW????? 2018 is coming, better make a RESOLUTION to NOT STOP BELIEVING the WHOLE year!!! 2018 could be the year you STOP believing and then you're going to HELL pal!!! If you wake up tomorrow and don't believe, it is hell for you!!!!"

Not to mention the person also has to do something "really stupid" according to PHart's PHalse gospel.

Just imagine the "freedom" in the above paranoia and misunderstanding of texts such as 1 Corinthians 15:2 to which he has misused to arrive where he is. No thanks, I'll pass on that PHalse gospel.

Yep. PHart; perpetually trying to sift the wheat from the wheat and divide the sheep from the sheep.

AMEN.....Jesus begins, finishes and completes.....these three words alone dispel his ridiculous stance that a believer MUST KEEP himself saved when it comes to faith......!

dcontroversal · Oct 15, 2017

PennEd said:

As has been said numerous times........Jesus begins, finishes and completes the work of faith in us....his view makes Jesus into an inept liar that does not or cannot keep his word without the help of men....

blue_ladybug · Oct 15, 2017

Thank goodness people here are wise enough to recognize and expose false prophets...

dcontroversal · Oct 15, 2017

He_reigns said:

You state Romans 5:20-21 and stop, but this is not the rest of the Gospel.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, [SUP]21 [/SUP]so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

What you do not ever state is the continuation of Romans 5:20-21 which says this:

Romans 6:1-19

6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?[SUP]2 [/SUP]May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [SUP]7 [/SUP]for he who has died is freed from sin.[SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! [SUP]16 [/SUP]Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? [SUP]17 [/SUP]But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, [SUP]18 [/SUP]and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. [SUP]19 [/SUP]I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

You say the complete opposite, that SIN is not the issue because of Grace abounding over your sin, but Paul says you are your band of merry little men, are wrong. Spiritual maturity is not sinning just because you have grace. Spiritual maturity is understanding that where saving grace stops, empowering grace, takes over, Romans 5:18-21 is not talking about saving grace, it is talking about empowering grace that abounds over your sin, but should also empower you to not continue to sin. Just as Romans 6 says. Empowering grace is a result of being Justified by Christ and him alone.

Now I fully expect you to shift gears and tell me I am pushing sinless perfection, but I am not.

Romans 5:18- Romans 6:23 is one complete thought and truth.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. [SUP]20 [/SUP]The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, [SUP]21 [/SUP]so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? [SUP]2 [/SUP]May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [SUP]7 [/SUP]for he who has died is freed from sin.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, [SUP]9 [/SUP]knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! [SUP]16 [/SUP]Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? [SUP]17 [/SUP]But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, [SUP]18 [/SUP]and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. [SUP]19 [/SUP]I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Did you say something....No not really...no one is pushing a life of sin and either sin has been paid for or not....seemingly in your case is has not been dealt with and take your argument up with JOHN......no wonder you like junior's posts....both of you push a self saving I work for and keep myself perfectly saved with no sin because I do not need Jesus.....

dcontroversal · Oct 15, 2017

blue_ladybug said:

AMEN Blue....and as long as the workers for, sinless perfectionists, lawyers and Pharisees keep pushing their dogma we will continue to swing away......ching, ching, ching, parry.......thrust, ching, ching, ching

TruthTalk · Oct 15, 2017

preacher4truth said:

Great info Preacher4Truth. If we learn the True Gospel we won't get caught believing a lie.
False gospel = false christ.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2Timothy2:15

Walter Ralston Martin (1928 - 1989), was an Evangelical Christian apologist who founded the Christian Research Institute in 1960 as a para-church ministry specialising as a clearing-house of information in both general Christian apologetics and in countercult apologetics.

$7.99
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Attribute: Book Review: "Kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin (The Prayer Foundation)

Magenta · Oct 15, 2017

If one can know they are saved by keeping His commandments, then those who believe they are saved by keeping the commandments and yet still sin must not be saved at all, according to their very own words. Romans 8 was mentioned, and I had a fairly lengthy reply started which I lost when my computer froze and then restarted, but I will bring this up, for following justification, is glorification according to the passage (Romans 8:30) I am thinking of, and yet for others, they must read "glorification" as the possibility of falling away and condemnation.

He_reigns · Oct 15, 2017

dcontroversal said:

I warned you he would do it:

BillG · Oct 15, 2017

I can’t recall DC saying that sin is not the issue and that sinning doesn’t matter.
If I read him correctly he states that where sin abounds Gods grace abounds even more.

He not pushing antinomianism. Which Paul had to address in Romans 6.
Just like you are not pushing sinless perfection.

I am sure most of us would agree with you in that the grace that saves us is the grace that sets us free to overcoms.
Firstly the security of salvation through faith in Jesus alone after which we receive the Holy Spirit to help us, conform us to the image of Jesus.

PS, can I ask you to refrain from comments like “you and your merry little men”
All that does is out heckles up and can detract from what it is you are trying to say.
I implore all on here to do the same. Whether it be me, you or DC.

Althiugh I must give DC some credit. I can’t say I have seen him post “Cake taker for a while”

Your brother in Jesus.

Magenta · Oct 15, 2017

PHart said:

Your logical fallacy notwithstanding, I say no such thing

It is however, one of the despicable things you like to repeat.

If keeping His commandments is all that allows you to know
you are saved, I pity you, for you do not keep His commands,
and therefore you cannot know you are saved at all. I wonder
why you might think you are? You have no assurance whatsoever.

Amberlight · Oct 15, 2017

Magenta said:

... Yes i do not think the poster understands what is to be in faith.

If one has faith he will not do habitual sin and if believer happens to do sin he/she will seek forgiveness from lord.

All sins are forgiven in faith..

If you think you can sin all the time do evil be against lord.... well then most likely.. you have no faith...

preacher4truth · Oct 15, 2017

TruthTalk said:

I read this book years ago, and was shocked Walter Martin didn't include SDA as a cult. But, of course they lied to him and Donald Grey Barnhouse about their true beliefs when they formed a meeting to discuss what they believe prior to his writing of them in his book.

Walter Martin based his findings off of their discussion which was not forthcoming. He was lied to and was deceived by this cult.

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