The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[peacefulbeliever]

Bupkis! My story is the familiar one. I went to sleep as a nonbeliever and woke up his! Same story as my husband. Same story as most folks I know. The only other story is it happened during the day, but always with a mind on anything but the Lord.

And now you're taking this to God owes you, because you heard, you believed, you accepted the tattoo, and you praised him.

Is that not what Ephesians 1:13,14 says? Now does God owe it to me to back up His word? Shouldn't He keep His promises? Didn't He say that His word would go forth and not return void but will accomplish what He has purposed? Well, it seems that salvation is His plan and purpose . . . I think that is why He sent his Son . . . . to cancel out "the wages of sin is death" and give "the gift of God . . . . eternal life IN Jesus Christ our Lord." How is one IN Jesus Christ? Oh goodness, there we go back to that word "believe", i.e. have faith in.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I didn't pull out just one verse . . . Does Romans 1-7 in any way make null and void the scriptures I quoted? It is all still the same . . . I pulled out verses that don't mean what I think they mean but no explanation as to where my understanding in those verses are wrong.

The whole scope of scripture is what God did about our failure . . . the coming Messiah, the birth of the Messiah, the death of the Messiah and the resurrection of the Messiah which constitutes the gospel of our salvation.

You don't respond to me because I am here to prove MY point? . . . Do you not do the same? . . . As for that, aren't we all, in one way or another, here to prove what we believe?

I have no problem knowing who God is . . . I talk easily about believing???? It seems God also talks a lot about believing . . 289 times in the OT . . . 263 times in the NT; [which doesn't even touch on the word "faith" which is the same Greek word as "belief"] Heck - Abraham was accounted righteous because he believed God! Isn't it funny that we are also accounted righteous through belief in God and Jesus Christ, the one He sent. "Do not let your hearts be trouble. You believe in God; believe also in me." . . . "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." [sounds a little like Eph. 1:13,14] Oh goodness, there I go again trying to prove MY point and I am sure I have the wrong understanding of those verses.

WHO are we believing in? A God in whom we can trust because he is trustworthy and He is faithful and just and because we can be assured of His promise of eternal life through belief in Jesus Christ which He has stated repeatedly . . . . not just MY point.

My Sister, I posted this t'other day. Please read it again...

Atoned:

--to make amends or reparation, as for an offense or a crime, or for an offender (usually followed by for): to atone for one's sins

If the Christ atoned for everybody's sin w/o exception, then He has amended, repaired their stance before the Father. None in this category will ever taste eternal death.

--to make up, as for errors or deficiencies (usually followed by for): to atone for one's failings.

Seeing that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, all are failures. If the Christ atoned for all w/o exception, He has atoned for their failings. When we were this--->For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly[Romans 5:6], so if this is applied to everybody w/o exception, then everybody w/o exception has been atoned for, has been reconciled to the Father, has had their failings atoned for.

--to make amends for; expiate: He atoned his sins.

To expiate means to extinguish the guilt incurred by. So, if the Christ atoned for everybody w/o exception, then there is no guilt imputed to them.


--to bring into unity, harmony, concord, etc

So, if the Christ atoned for everybody w/o exception, everybody is united, in a harmonious relationship, in an accord with the Father.


One can not hold to a universal atonement and not also hold to universalism, and remain consistent in their theology.

This is what the cross actually accomplished for us. Nothing can be added to it or taken from it.

There is no potentiality to the cross of the Christ. If He atoned for every person whoever lived, then every person whoever lived is saved. There is no potentiality to being saved. He ever saves or He does not. If He died for them, He will save them.

Romans 4:25 says He rose again for our justification. If His resurrection is for every person whoever lived, He then justified every person whoever lived. If every person whoever lived is justified, then every person whoever lived is saved, seeing we are justified(declared righteous before God) by faith.

You are making the atonement, along with the resurrection of the Christ, and reducing it down to potentiality. In other words, you are, in essence, saying "God did His part, now you must do yours." Salvation is either all of God or its not. Which is it? If we mingle in this, we add to the cross of the Christ.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Is that not what Ephesians 1:13,14 says? Now does God owe it to me to back up His word? Shouldn't He keep His promises? Didn't He say that His word would go forth and not return void but will accomplish what He has purposed? Well, it seems that salvation is His plan and purpose . . . I think that is why He sent his Son . . . . to cancel out "the wages of sin is death" and give "the gift of God . . . . eternal life IN Jesus Christ our Lord." How is one IN Jesus Christ? Oh goodness, there we go back to that word "believe", i.e. have faith in.

What must we do to do the works of God? The works of God is this, that you believe upon the One He sent.[John 6:28,29{I paraphrased that, btw}]

We were dead inwardly, and could not believe. We could not believe because we would not believe, because our hearts hated Him. Those who love Him have been(past tense, meaning already done) born of Him.[1 John 4:7]

 

[shrume]

My Sister, I posted this t'other day. Please read it again...



This is what the cross actually accomplished for us. Nothing can be added to it or taken from it.

There is no potentiality to the cross of the Christ. If He atoned for every person whoever lived, then every person whoever lived is saved. There is no potentiality to being saved. He ever saves or He does not. If He died for them, He will save them.

Romans 4:25 says He rose again for our justification. If His resurrection is for every person whoever lived, He then justified every person whoever lived. If every person whoever lived is justified, then every person whoever lived is saved, seeing we are justified(declared righteous before God) by faith.

You are making the atonement, along with the resurrection of the Christ, and reducing it down to potentiality. In other words, you are, in essence, saying "God did His part, now you must do yours." Salvation is either all of God or its not. Which is it? If we mingle in this, we add to the cross of the Christ.

That is the truth.

Your part is to choose to believe.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You've been called on your lack of logic, your distortions, and your lies enough that there is no purpose in repeating that.

False accusations are just like fake news. They have absolutely no merit. There are plenty of Christians here who would say that all of these accusations are lies. And when people cannot (or will not) respond to Bible truth, then they have to resort to attacking the messenger with lies.

 

[valiant]

That is certainly NOT what the Bible reveals. The APPLICATION of atonement is limited to those who believe, but the atonement itself is NOT limited at all.

That is nonsense. Without belief there is no atonement. Application brings atonement. No man has atonement until he believes.

Christ took away the sin of the WORLD,

But not of all the people in the world.

Christ became a ransom FOR ALL,

But on behalf of many, (Mark 10.45)

God laid on Christ the INIQUITY OF US ALL,

all Christians

Christ tasted death FOR EVERY MAN,

both Jew and Gentile, He brought many sons unto glory

Christ was made the Propitiation (Atoning Sacrifice) for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.

He was made a propitiation so that God could delay His justice, He was not made an atoning sacrifice.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

He was made a propitiation for the whole world (averter of the wrath of God). He did not atone for their sins.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Salvation is either all of God or its not. Which is it?

Since the Bible commands men to repent and believe the Gospel, it should be obvious that God does not do the repenting and believing. He does the saving, but without the repenting and the believing, He will not save anyone.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

[All Bible quotes from the book of Acts]

 

[preacher4truth]

what was the Lord Jesus doing on the cross? if we can answer that question, it would help.

was He actually propitiating the wrath of God for sinners? in other words, was it a r-e-a-l sacrifice?

was payment made?

Jesus did all he could, now it is up to us!

That's the gospel!

Yes he is waiting for those of us who truly love him to come to him and prove it. Then we can say, as the armininans and anti-election folks;

"God doesn't want robots, he doesn't force people to be saved! I came to him out of my free choice!"

"That is what he wants, people to come to him out of their own special love they have for him. He doesn't choose to save certain people, that would be forcing them to be saved! Instead, he waits for people like me to come to him out of our own love for him because that proves our love for him is real! Then he saves us because we did that! All this stuff about being unable, John 6:44, and being incapable of pleasing him, Romans 8:8 is hogwash! We can come to him proving we love him! Jesus did what he could now it is up to us! He is waiting for people to come to him because they love him and because they want to! That is true love!"

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

My Sister, I posted this t'other day. Please read it again...

And dear brother, I responded to that post in #116 . . . .

This is what the cross actually accomplished for us. Nothing can be added to it or taken from it.

There is no potentiality to the cross of the Christ. If He atoned for every person whoever lived, then every person whoever lived is saved. There is no potentiality to being saved. He ever saves or He does not. If He died for them, He will save them.

Christ died to rid us of - the wages of sin, death. The gift of God, salvation, is through him, by him and in him. Christ death accomplished what it was supposed to accomplish . . . for all mankind w/o exception but only those who believe in him will receive eternal life, i.e. salvation - all with distinction.

Romans 4:25 says He rose again for our justification. If His resurrection is for every person whoever lived, He then justified every person whoever lived. If every person whoever lived is justified, then every person whoever lived is saved, seeing we are justified(declared righteous before God) by faith.

What else does Romans 4 say speaking of Abraham believing God, being fully persuaded that God would do what he promised - right before in v24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. Yes, we are justified, made righteous by faith. I have asked a number of times what are people defining as faith?
Faith is to be fully persuaded in something or someone, faith is trust, faith is the same Greek word as belief . . . Abraham believed God . . . Abraham had faith (believed) God and was counted righteous; Abraham had faith (believed) in God's promise of receiving an inheritance; Abraham was ready to sacrifice Isaac because he had faith (believed) that God would raise him from the dead; Sarah had faith (believed) God would give her a child because she considered God faithful in his promise . . . etc., etc., etc.

You are making the atonement, along with the resurrection of the Christ, and reducing it down to potentiality. In other words, you are, in essence, saying "God did His part, now you must do yours." Salvation is either all of God or its not. Which is it? If we mingle in this, we add to the cross of the Christ.

It isn't that "God did his part, now we must do ours." It's - God's promises are to those who believe.

 

[valiant]

Since the Bible commands men to repent and believe the Gospel, it should be obvious that God does not do the repenting and believing. He does the saving, but without the repenting and the believing, He will not save anyone.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

[All Bible quotes from the book of Acts]

Acts also says God GAVE the GIFT of repentance to Israel.

 

[Nehemiah6]

He was made a propitiation for the whole world (averter of the wrath of God). He did not atone for their sins.

Obviously you do not understand what propitiation and atonement mean. Hence this contradictory statement to support your false doctrine. For the truth see below:


Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words

Propitiation


A — 1: ἱλάσκομαι

(Strong's #2433 — Verb — hilaskomai — hil-as'-kom-ahee )
was used amongst the Greeks with the significance "to make the gods propitious, to appease, propitiate," inasmuch as their good will was not conceived as their natural attitude, but something to be earned first. This use of the word is foreign to the Greek Bible, with respect to God, whether in the Sept. or in the NT. It is never used of any act whereby man brings God into a favorable attitude or gracious disposition.

It is God who is "propitiated" by the vindication of His holy and righteous character, whereby, through the provision He has made in the vicarious and expiatory sacrifice of Christ, He has so dealt with sin that He can show mercy to the believing sinner in the removal of his guilt and the remission of his sins.

Thus in Luke 18:13 it signifies "to be propitious" or "merciful to" (with the person as the object of the verb), and in Hebrews 2:17 "to expiate, to make propitiation for" (the object of the verb being sins); here the RV, "to make propitiation" is an important correction of the AV, "to make reconciliation."

Through the "propitiation" sacrifice of Christ, he who believes upon Him is by God's own act delivered from justly deserved wrath, and comes under the covenant of grace. Never is God said to be reconciled, a fact itself indicative that the enmity exists on man's part alone, and that it is man who needs to be reconciled to God, and not God to man.

God is always the same and, since He is Himself immutable, His relative attitude does change towards those who change. He can act differently towards those who come to Him by faith, and solely on the ground of the "propitiatory" sacrifice of Christ, not because He has changed, but because He ever acts according to His unchanging righteousness.

The expiatory work of the Cross is therefore the means whereby the barrier which sin interposes between God and man is broken down. By the giving up of His sinless life sacrifically, Christ annuls the power of sin to separate between God and the believer.

In the OT the Hebrew verb kaphar is connected with kopher, "a covering" (see MERCY SEAT), and is used in connection with the burnt offering, e.g., Leviticus 1:4 ; 14:20 ; 16:24 , the guilt offering e.g., Leviticus 5:16,18 , the sin offering, e.g., Leviticus 4:20,26,31,35 , the sin offering and burnt offering together, e.g., Leviticus 5:10 ; 9:7 , the meal offering and peace offering, e.g., Ezekiel 45:15,17 , as well as in other respects. It is used of the ram offered at the consecration of the high priest, Exodus 29:33 , and of the blood which God gave upon the altar to make "propitiation" for the souls of the people, and that because "the life of the flesh is in the blood," Leviticus 17:11 , and "it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life" (RV). Man has forfeited his life on account of sin and God has provided the one and only way whereby eternal life could be bestowed, namely, by the voluntary laying down of His life by His Son, under Divine retribution. Of this the former sacrifices appointed by God were foreshadowings.B — 1:

ἱλαστήριον

(Strong's #2435 — Noun Neuter — hilasterion — hil-as-tay'-ree-on )

akin to A, is regarded as the neuter of an adjective signifying "propitiatory." In the Sept. it is used adjectivelly in connection with epithema, "a cover," in Exodus 25:17 ; 37:6 , of the lid of the ark (see MERCY SEAT), but it is used as a noun (without epithema), of locality, in Exodus 25:18-22 ; 31:7 ; 35:12 ; 37:7,8,9 ; Leviticus 16:2,13-15 ;Numbers 7:89 , and this is its use in Hebrews 9:5 .

Elsewhere in the NT it occurs in Romans 3:25 , where it is used of Christ Himself; the RV text and punctuation in this verse are important: "whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, by His blood." The phrase "by His blood" is to be taken in immediate connection with "propitiation." Christ, through His expiatory death, is the Personal means by whom God shows the mercy of His justifying grace to the sinner who believes. His "blood" stands for the voluntary giving up of His life, by the shedding of His blood in expiatory sacrifice, under Divine judgment righteously due to us as sinners, faith being the sole condition on man's part.

Note: "By metonymy, 'blood' is sometimes put for 'death,' inasmuch as, blood being essential to life, Leviticus 17:11 , when the blood is shed life is given up, that is, death takes place. The fundamental principle on which God deals with sinners is expressed in the words 'apart from shedding of blood,' i.e., unless a death takes place, 'there is no remission' of sins, Hebrews 9:22 .

"But whereas the essential of the type lay in the fact that blood was shed, the essential of the antitype lies in this, that the blood shed was that of Christ. Hence, in connection with Jewish sacrifices, 'the blood' is mentioned without reference to the victim from which it flowed, but in connection with the great antitypical sacrifice of the NT the words 'the blood' never stand alone; the One Who shed the blood is invariably specified, for it is the Person that gives value to the work; the saving efficacy of the Death depends entirely upon the fact that He Who died was the Son of God." * [* From

Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, p. 168.]B — 2: ἱλασμός

(Strong's #2434 — Noun Masculine — hilasmos — hil-as-mos' )

akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1 John 2:2 ; 4:10 , signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world."

The italicized addition in the AV, "the sins of," gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe.

In 1 John 4:10 , the fact that God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins," is shown to be the great expression of God's love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another. In the Sept., Leviticus 25:9 ; Numbers 5:8 ; 1 Chronicles 28:20 ; Psalm 130:4 ; Ezekiel 44:27 ; Amos 8:14 .

 

[valiant]

Obviously you do not understand what propitiation and atonement mean. Hence this contradictory statement to support your false doctrine. For the truth see below:


Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words

Propitiation


A — 1: ἱλάσκομαι

(Strong's #2433 — Verb — hilaskomai — hil-as'-kom-ahee )
was used amongst the Greeks with the significance "to make the gods propitious, to appease, propitiate," inasmuch as their good will was not conceived as their natural attitude, but something to be earned first. This use of the word is foreign to the Greek Bible, with respect to God, whether in the Sept. or in the NT. It is never used of any act whereby man brings God into a favorable attitude or gracious disposition.

It is God who is "propitiated" by the vindication of His holy and righteous character, whereby, through the provision He has made in the vicarious and expiatory sacrifice of Christ, He has so dealt with sin that He can show mercy to the believing sinner in the removal of his guilt and the remission of his sins.

Thus in Luke 18:13 it signifies "to be propitious" or "merciful to" (with the person as the object of the verb), and in Hebrews 2:17 "to expiate, to make propitiation for" (the object of the verb being sins); here the RV, "to make propitiation" is an important correction of the AV, "to make reconciliation."

Through the "propitiation" sacrifice of Christ, he who believes upon Him is by God's own act delivered from justly deserved wrath, and comes under the covenant of grace. Never is God said to be reconciled, a fact itself indicative that the enmity exists on man's part alone, and that it is man who needs to be reconciled to God, and not God to man.

God is always the same and, since He is Himself immutable, His relative attitude does change towards those who change. He can act differently towards those who come to Him by faith, and solely on the ground of the "propitiatory" sacrifice of Christ, not because He has changed, but because He ever acts according to His unchanging righteousness.

The expiatory work of the Cross is therefore the means whereby the barrier which sin interposes between God and man is broken down. By the giving up of His sinless life sacrifically, Christ annuls the power of sin to separate between God and the believer.

In the OT the Hebrew verb kaphar is connected with kopher, "a covering" (see MERCY SEAT), and is used in connection with the burnt offering, e.g., Leviticus 1:4 ; 14:20 ; 16:24 , the guilt offering e.g., Leviticus 5:16,18 , the sin offering, e.g., Leviticus 4:20,26,31,35 , the sin offering and burnt offering together, e.g., Leviticus 5:10 ; 9:7 , the meal offering and peace offering, e.g., Ezekiel 45:15,17 , as well as in other respects. It is used of the ram offered at the consecration of the high priest, Exodus 29:33 , and of the blood which God gave upon the altar to make "propitiation" for the souls of the people, and that because "the life of the flesh is in the blood," Leviticus 17:11 , and "it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life" (RV). Man has forfeited his life on account of sin and God has provided the one and only way whereby eternal life could be bestowed, namely, by the voluntary laying down of His life by His Son, under Divine retribution. Of this the former sacrifices appointed by God were foreshadowings.B — 1:

ἱλαστήριον

(Strong's #2435 — Noun Neuter — hilasterion — hil-as-tay'-ree-on )

akin to A, is regarded as the neuter of an adjective signifying "propitiatory." In the Sept. it is used adjectivelly in connection with epithema, "a cover," in Exodus 25:17 ; 37:6 , of the lid of the ark (see MERCY SEAT), but it is used as a noun (without epithema), of locality, in Exodus 25:18-22 ; 31:7 ; 35:12 ; 37:7,8,9 ; Leviticus 16:2,13-15 ;Numbers 7:89 , and this is its use in Hebrews 9:5 .

Elsewhere in the NT it occurs in Romans 3:25 , where it is used of Christ Himself; the RV text and punctuation in this verse are important: "whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, by His blood." The phrase "by His blood" is to be taken in immediate connection with "propitiation." Christ, through His expiatory death, is the Personal means by whom God shows the mercy of His justifying grace to the sinner who believes. His "blood" stands for the voluntary giving up of His life, by the shedding of His blood in expiatory sacrifice, under Divine judgment righteously due to us as sinners, faith being the sole condition on man's part.

Note: "By metonymy, 'blood' is sometimes put for 'death,' inasmuch as, blood being essential to life, Leviticus 17:11 , when the blood is shed life is given up, that is, death takes place. The fundamental principle on which God deals with sinners is expressed in the words 'apart from shedding of blood,' i.e., unless a death takes place, 'there is no remission' of sins, Hebrews 9:22 .

"But whereas the essential of the type lay in the fact that blood was shed, the essential of the antitype lies in this, that the blood shed was that of Christ. Hence, in connection with Jewish sacrifices, 'the blood' is mentioned without reference to the victim from which it flowed, but in connection with the great antitypical sacrifice of the NT the words 'the blood' never stand alone; the One Who shed the blood is invariably specified, for it is the Person that gives value to the work; the saving efficacy of the Death depends entirely upon the fact that He Who died was the Son of God." * [* From

Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, p. 168.]B — 2: ἱλασμός

(Strong's #2434 — Noun Masculine — hilasmos — hil-as-mos' )

akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1 John 2:2 ; 4:10 , signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world."

The italicized addition in the AV, "the sins of," gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe.

In 1 John 4:10 , the fact that God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins," is shown to be the great expression of God's love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another. In the Sept., Leviticus 25:9 ; Numbers 5:8 ; 1 Chronicles 28:20 ; Psalm 130:4 ; Ezekiel 44:27 ; Amos 8:14 .

I am not impressed by somebody else's Greek. But if their sin is atoned for then they are right with God. Its as simple as that.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

What must we do to do the works of God? The works of God is this, that you believe upon the One He sent.[John 6:28,29{I paraphrased that, btw}]

We were dead inwardly, and could not believe. We could not believe because we would not believe, because our hearts hated Him. Those who love Him have been(past tense, meaning already done) born of Him.[1 John 4:7]

What is the context: Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval. Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered: The work of God (the work God requires - in answer to their question "the works God requires") is this: to believe in the one he has sent.

Can we not reason as human beings as to whether we believe something is true or not? It seems we can "hear" enough to believe (have faith) . . . because it comes from hearing. I guess you have a different meaning for the process in Ephesians 1:13 also? It should read - you receive the seal of holy Spirit, you hear, then you believe????

 

[SovereignGrace]

Jesus did all he could, now it is up to us!

That's the gospel!

Yes he is waiting for those of us who truly love him to come to him and prove it. Then we can say, as the armininans and anti-election folks;

"God doesn't want robots, he doesn't force people to be saved! I came to him out of my free choice!"

"That is what he wants, people to come to him out of their own special love they have for him. He doesn't choose to save certain people, that would be forcing them to be saved! Instead, he waits for people like me to come to him out of our own love for him because that proves our love for him is real! Then he saves us because we did that! All this stuff about being unable, John 6:44, and being incapable of pleasing him, Romans 8:8 is hogwash! We can come to him proving we love him! Jesus did what he could now it is up to us! He is waiting for people to come to him because they love him and because they want to! That is true love!"

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[SovereignGrace]

What is the context: Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval. Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered: The work of God (the work God requires - in answer to their question "the works God requires") is this: to believe in the one he has sent.

Can we not reason as human beings as to whether we believe something is true or not? It seems we can "hear" enough to believe (have faith) . . . because it comes from hearing. I guess you have a different meaning for the process in Ephesians 1:13 also? It should read - you receive the seal of holy Spirit, you hear, then you believe????

You are approaching this from the outside in, whereas I approach this from the inside out. Salvation starts inwardly and manifests itself outwardly, not vice versa. Until God wroughts grace upon their hearts, they are blind as a bat and deaf as a post. The words of God spoken to them just 'wooooosh' by them. But when God wroughts grace upon their hearts, they are made alive, given eyes to see with, ears to hear with, faith and repentance are given to them, they exercise them and are saved.

Look at Ezekiel 37. Those bones had no hope within themselves of ever living again. They could not see, hear, or have a will they could exert to make themselves alive. It was only after Ezekiel prophesied the words he was given from God, did they come alive again. That is how God works through the gospel. Those who are lost are inwardly like those bones in that valley. They have no ears to hear with, no eyes to see with, no will they could exert to ever make themselves spiritually alive. It is when God works through the words of the preacher, teacher, missionary, et al, that they come alive again and exercise faith and repentance. Faith and repentance are the result of salvation, not the cause of it. Those who believe have already been saved.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well, time to get ready for SS & church. Y'all be safe. May He richly bless you this Lord's day.

 

[Snoozy]

ezekiel 37 is about the people of israel.

this is why its important to rightly divide the word of truth.
we cant take promises from Israel and apply them to gentiles in the church age. unless its done in the nt. thats how its easy to get mixed up on doctrines

 

[preacher4truth]

Jesus, concerning a person's part in salvation?: "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all*. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)

Those who deny this: "Your Gospel is heresy and of the devil! We CAN all choose to go to heaven! Jesus said we can choose him! Anything else is of the devil and Calvinism is blasphemy!"



(*Oh, and for the record, a couple verses later and those who didn't like his gospel of Sovereign election? They stopped following him.)

 

[peacefulbeliever]

You are approaching this from the outside in, whereas I approach this from the inside out. Salvation starts inwardly and manifests itself outwardly, not vice versa. Until God wroughts grace upon their hearts, they are blind as a bat and deaf as a post. The words of God spoken to them just 'wooooosh' by them. But when God wroughts grace upon their hearts, they are made alive, given eyes to see with, ears to hear with, faith and repentance are given to them, they exercise them and are saved.

So, you are saying that we receive holy Spirit first? Where is this "until God wroughts grace"? Where is this - "faith and repentance are given to them"? Where is this "they exercise them and are saved"?

Look at Ezekiel 37. Those bones had no hope within themselves of ever living again. They could not see, hear, or have a will they could exert to make themselves alive. It was only after Ezekiel prophesied the words he was given from God, did they come alive again. That is how God works through the gospel. Those who are lost are inwardly like those bones in that valley. They have no ears to hear with, no eyes to see with, no will they could exert to ever make themselves spiritually alive. It is when God works through the words of the preacher, teacher, missionary, et al, that they come alive again and exercise faith and repentance. Faith and repentance are the result of salvation, not the cause of it. Those who believe have already been saved.

Those "bones" were actually DEAD . . . no life whatsoever. A sinner is dead in trespasses and sins but not literally DEAD. A sinner is dead spiritually - they can still hear, see, taste, touch, and smell. They are still intelligent beings and can make logical decisions based on what they know to be right or wrong, i.e. moral decisions.

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? . . . So then, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. . . . .

I think it's pretty important to look at these words - believe and faith.

Believe is the Greek word pisteuo meaning - to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in) and it comes from the Greek word for faith - pistis meaning the conviction of the truth of anything, belief; and pistis comes from the root wd peitho meaning persuade, be persuaded, to trust, have confidence, be confident. All this comes from hearing the word of God. Hearing helps us believe (verb) for we hear and we are persuaded that it is true and we can place our confidence in God; the result is faith . And watch this - these words basically mean "trust" - a synonym for believe is to trust and rely on, have faith in; a synonym for belief is faith . . . a synonym for trust is faith and faith is belief and trust in and loyalty to God.

Hearing the word of God, thinking it to be true, becoming fully persuaded that we can trust what is within those pages - trusting that what God says is true and that he is a faithful God brings about a person wanting to call upon God.

Just as the jailer in Acts 16 - Sirs, what must I do to be saved? They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved . . . .Salvation is the result of faith (belief) in the Father and in the one whom he has sent, Jesus Christ. I see it too many times throughout the scope of scripture.

I haven't read where one receives the holy Spirit first . . . But that doesn't keep me from hearing your explanations and coming to a better understanding of what you believe . . .

 

[Nehemiah6]

I am not impressed by somebody else's Greek. But if their sin is atoned for then they are right with God. Its as simple as that.

So according to your weird theology, there is no need to preach the Gospel, or for sinners to repent and believe. Everyone is automatically saved.

Since you dismissed the proper understanding of propitiation with a smart remark about somebody else Greek, we can conclude that you too have no interest in the truth, when it exposes the gross errors of Calvinism. This is pretty cultish.