Grace alone or grace plus works?

[eternally-gratefull]

If someone believes that salvation is "obtained" and "maintained" by works, then they could NEVER have absolute assurance of salvation because they would always be wondering if their performance measures up, which is not genuine faith and hope.

Also, unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope.

If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1).

Titus 3:7 - so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

You must spread some rep around


Amen brother,. Great words of wisdom. Why people can not see what the terms faith and hope really mean, it is sad. They water those words down like they do the rest of Gods word. Its sad.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is not the Mormon's assurance of his individual future outcome on judgement day that is the question. It is the notion that Mormon theology is unquestionably assured to be true. If Mormon theology is false than having 100% assurance in its tenets is worthless.

To be able to claim unquestionable assurance one must first be able to know without a doubt that their theology is correct and also that they have fulfilled the requirements of said theology. I cannot see how someone can honestly say yes to either of these points.

Thats where it is up to God to change ones view.

If people are assure they are right, that is between them and God. All we can do is share Gods word. And pray it takes root.

It still does not take away from the fact that I gave you Gods word, and you still could not tell me if I was correct or not.

 

[Hizikyah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 8:21, “And He answering, said to them, “My mother and My brothers are those who are hearing the Word of Yah and doing it.”[/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is certainly misunderstandings. Grace comes "Through Faith". Faith without works is dead. But we all have works. Catholics do Lent and eat fish on Friday. This is their religious tradition. If I see someone following this church tradition, I know what their "Faith" is. We all have faith in something.

But only by Faith in the God of Abraham, which became a man in the person of Jesus and purchased me with His Blood, can we have life.

Part of that Faith must entail trust in His Instructions as the Faith of Abraham shows us.

Abraham believed in God enough to follow His Instructions and the New Testament calls this "Faith".

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

There have been forces working to deceive people into disobedience since satan used part God's Words to deceive Eve.

We know Jesus said not everyone is saved by His Grace. It would be good if people would do a word study on what "Work iniquity" means. There wouldn't so much division if everyone understood Matt. 7:22.

there is self righteous works, and their are spiritual works. (These works could be the same works)

what differentiates the two is the motivation behind the work.

The catholic does self righteous works. They are doing them so that God will look kindly on them

 

[DJ2]

If someone believes that salvation is "obtained" and "maintained" by works, then they could NEVER have absolute assurance of salvation because they would always be wondering if their performance measures up, which is not genuine faith and hope.

Also, unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope.

If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1).

Titus 3:7 - so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

"If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope."

When the prospect of an "if" exist there cannot be unquestionable assurance. We cannot be completely assured that the "if" does not apply to us.

This is not about works but our inability as humans to predict the future.

He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to the end. Ecclesiastes 3:11

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Luke 8:21, “And He answering, said to them, “My mother and My brothers are those who are hearing the Word of Yah and doing it.”

How many times do you have to post this same verse? Seems like you do it a few times every day (maybe less)

Do you not think and KNOW by now everyone agrees with this verse. And no one is teaching against it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope.


When the prospect of an "if" exist there cannot be unquestionable assurance. We cannot be completely assured that the "if" does not apply to us.

This is not about works but our inability as humans to predict the future.

He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to the end. Ecclesiastes 3:11

If you do not KNOW you have eternal life
’
You have no hope. Period!

there is no hope in insecurity!

 

[Hizikyah]

How many times do you have to post this same verse? Seems like you do it a few times every day (maybe less)

Do you not think and KNOW by now everyone agrees with this verse. And no one is teaching against it?

Why do you have an issue with me posting it, we are tp meditate upon the word, I read it and others daily. These are also really awseome;

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Titus 3:8, “Trustworthy is the word, and in this regard I wish you to strongly affirm, that those who have believed in YHWH should keep their minds on maintaining right works. This is excellent and profitable to men.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 16:24-27, “Then [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his stake, and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it. For what is a man profited if he gains all the world, and loses his own life? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his life? For the Son of Aḏam is going to come in the esteem of His Father with His messengers, and then He shall reward each according to his works.”[/FONT]

 

[DJ2]

If you do not KNOW you have eternal life
’
You have no hope. Period!

there is no hope in insecurity!

There is also no hope in honest but misguided beliefs of assurance.

 

[Studyman]

=mailmandan;3355007]If someone believes that salvation is "obtained" and "maintained" by works, then they could NEVER have absolute assurance of salvation because they would always be wondering if their performance measures up, which is not genuine faith and hope.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

1 Pet. 1:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

1 Cor. 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Rom. 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1 Tim. 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1 Cor. 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

1 Cor. 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.



I don't think Paul and you are on the same page here MM.

We are in a race, a battle for our life and there are forces out to turn us away from the Jesus of the Bible to "Another jesus".

Jesus has given us the tools to use to win this race and over come as He overcome.

But we must have enough Faith in Him to use them and follow His instructions.

He says "Most" will create their own way. He says we will know them by their WORKS. He says to live by EVERY Word of God, which would include the verses I posted.

Just food for thought.

 

[Studyman]

there is self righteous works, and their are spiritual works. (These works could be the same works)

what differentiates the two is the motivation behind the work.

The catholic does self righteous works. They are doing them so that God will look kindly on them

You mean like Christmas and hanging pictures of some long haired men's hair dye model and calling it Jesus?

 

[Studyman]

If you do not KNOW you have eternal life
’
You have no hope. Period!

there is no hope in insecurity!

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

I guess Jesus didn't have hope then.

 

[tourist]

How could anyone be converted if they believed they possessed unquestionable assurance?

They receive the unquestionable assurance after conversion when they confessed their sins with a contrite heart, invite the Holy Spirit to live in their hearts and guide them on their spiritual journey. They now have the blessed assured hope that their salvation is secure and cannot be taken away.

 

[Hizikyah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Corinthians 4:4-5, “For I know nothing by myself; yet by this I am not justified, for He Who judges me is [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]! Therefore, judge nothing before the time. Wait until Yahshua comes, Who will bring to light the things hidden in darkness, and will reveal the secret intentions of men's hearts; and then each man will receive praise from [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”[/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is also no hope in honest but misguided beliefs of assurance.

lol. Again, only one group teaches assurance.. And they are seen as sin loving grace only fanatics..

the problem is not misguided assurance, the problem is misguided non assurance because of a lack of true faith in God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why do you have an issue with me posting it, we are tp meditate upon the word, I read it and others daily. These are also really awseome;

Titus 3:8, “Trustworthy is the word, and in this regard I wish you to strongly affirm, that those who have believed in YHWH should keep their minds on maintaining right works. This is excellent and profitable to men.”


Matthew 16:24-27, “Then יהושע said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his stake, and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it. For what is a man profited if he gains all the world, and loses his own life? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his life? For the Son of Aḏam is going to come in the esteem of His Father with His messengers, and then He shall reward each according to his works.”

whatever man,, I think you have ulterior motives, And I see no need to post the same verse over and over again when EVERYONE already believes it

But to each his own..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You mean like Christmas and hanging pictures of some long haired men's hair dye model and calling it Jesus?

Goes much deeper than this.

 

[Grandpa]

John 10:27-29
[FONT=&quot]27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Hebrews 13:5-6
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.[/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

I guess Jesus didn't have hope then.

Oh he had hope. He knew God would raise him from the dead. He did not just stop trusting God in this moment, if he did, he would have sinned himself.

he cried out in pain because for the first time in history, the father and spirit and son had a broken relationship. And the jesus died spiritually. I know. You can not fathom what that means or how painful that was, Non of us can. But it just shows how little of God you really know..

You think you have hope in your works based Gospel.. Good luck with that. As for mew, I will continue to trust God

 

[Grandpa]

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

1 Pet. 1:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

1 Cor. 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Rom. 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1 Tim. 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1 Cor. 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

1 Cor. 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.



I don't think Paul and you are on the same page here MM.

We are in a race, a battle for our life and there are forces out to turn us away from the Jesus of the Bible to "Another jesus".

Jesus has given us the tools to use to win this race and over come as He overcome.

But we must have enough Faith in Him to use them and follow His instructions.

He says "Most" will create their own way. He says we will know them by their WORKS. He says to live by EVERY Word of God, which would include the verses I posted.

Just food for thought.

To whom else would we go?