To whom else would we go?
John 6:67-68
[FONT="]67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?[/FONT]
[FONT="]68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.[/FONT]
Grace alone or grace plus works?
- Thread starter seed_time_harvest
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
To whom else would we go?
John 6:67-68
[FONT="]67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?[/FONT]
[FONT="]68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.[/FONT]
john 8:11"She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."
the two ideas of forgiveness and repentance and obedience are not contrary, Grace doesnt nullify obedience, obedience doesnt nullify Grace. its not " neither do i condemn you"......the second part is just as important " go and sin no more" in other words " i have forgiven you, now repent and follow me"
faith without works is useless speech is the thing. faith will always result not in " works" but in obedience to Gods Word, this is not a work like keeping a specail sabbath feast ot day, a moon festival, its simply to obey the gospel, accept Jesus teachings and live the way He teaches us. it has nothing to do with the mosaic Law that is the book moses wrote full of over 400 commands and ordinances. that is finished, not the covenant Law but the book of the mosaic Law was based entirely on works they did to be forgiven " sacrifice a spotless animal from your flock and then i will forgive you"
offer fellowship and drink offerings on the altar with the blood wash your hand a certain way, dress exactly as i tell you or you will die. festivaks sabbaths, days , seasons, years, details, letters......the book of the Law of moses that governed the people until Jesus came with the gospel. obedience is not a work to someone who is born again, a new creation, the " righteousness" of God, a child of God......obedience isnt a grievance unless a person desires the forbidden, then it becomes restraining and oppressive.
a thief is contrary to " thoiu shalt not steal" a killer contrary to " thou shalt not Kill.....yet, the One who lives a life of Love for thier fellow man, thou shalt not kill, is a good law to have it protects life. and to the hard working person who would never steal, the law " thou shalt not steal" is a good law to protect his property. we are saved by Grace like Noah was. Grace delivered Jesus and the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, a new covenant that works for us to sanctify, rather than condemn like the law of moses.
to make it about " Faith" or " faith plus works" doesnt really make sense because works are a part of faith. noah saved BY grace, through His faith in Gods Word.
genesis 6:8 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD....v13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14Make thee an ark of gopher wood;...v22 "Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he."
hebrews 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."
we tend to with the modern doctrines make faith what it is not. Faith that saves is faith that believe what God said, though you cannot see it for yourself, you have belief it will be as He spoke it. in noahs case, God gives Him Grace, then God warns Him tells Him whats going to happen, and then He instructs Him......and noah believes what God is saying, so He does what God said to do. thats faith, its one thing to say i believe, but if noah hadnt obeyed and did the work, thier was no ark. by faith noah built the ark, God said it, He believed it and so He built it as commanded. faith obeys Gods Word.
the ultimate trust in God is to believe the things He says in all circumstances. faith obeys Gods word its the same with abraham. we want to say " abraham believed and it was accounted as righteousness the end" but really, abraham believed what God said, and obeyed His instructions because He believed Gods Promise and goodness, he trusted God so much, he left his homeland not knowing where he was going just because God said to do it and he would be the Father of many nations and the earth would be blessed through Him...so abraham by Faith obeys
v8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
do you suppose abrahams obedience didnt affect His destination? faith without the works of faith which is simply repentance and obedience to the gospel, is dead. obedience to Gods will is always the result of faith, if we really believe Jesus is the Christ, who suffered and died and rose and now sits at Gods right Hand.....we will accept His word and learn to obey them by faith in Him. because we believe He is the savior, the way, truth and Life, eternal King we have faith, so why wouldnt we accept His words saying obey my teachings, keep my commands? keep my words and be free....learn from me. after all
hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Do you understand Jesus to be telling this woman to go and live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life from that moment on, or else!? Or do you understand Jesus to be telling the woman to go and leave her life of sin, namely, she had been practicing adultery.
*Also, Jesus cannot compromise his perfect holy standard, so of course He is not going to say, "go and just sin a little bit."
*Also, Jesus cannot compromise his perfect holy standard, so of course He is not going to say, "go and just sin a little bit."
What do you believe it means to "keep" His commands? Sinless, perfect obedience to ALL of His commands, 100% of the time? The Greek word for "keep" is "tereo" which means:
Strong's Concordance
téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Short Definition: I keep, guard, observe
Definition: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
HELPS Word-studies
5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.
So who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I'm sure these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 thought they obeyed Him.
I've heard many works salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics and Mormons, just to name a couple. *Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commands and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him.
Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.
Strong's Concordance
téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Short Definition: I keep, guard, observe
Definition: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
HELPS Word-studies
5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.
So who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I'm sure these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 thought they obeyed Him.
I've heard many works salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics and Mormons, just to name a couple. *Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commands and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him.
Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.
Your post is nothing more than a warmed over version of cheap grace theology.
This is but sugar coated double talk. Of course only believers obey Him but not all believers obey.
There is more to obeying than believing. We may debate on what is needed to be obeyed but to think that trust only regeneration theology is the answer is absurd.
You like many other cheap grace salvationists mistakenly label verses such as John 3:16 as all encompassing, definitive and absolute. You then ignore the flow and form of the entire Bible being one of obedience to God.
Your weak attempts at guilt by association are obvious. Trust only regeneration theology is the mainstay of televangelism yet their excesses does not prove other cheap grace salvationists wrong, just in bad company.
This is but sugar coated double talk. Of course only believers obey Him but not all believers obey.
There is more to obeying than believing. We may debate on what is needed to be obeyed but to think that trust only regeneration theology is the answer is absurd.
You like many other cheap grace salvationists mistakenly label verses such as John 3:16 as all encompassing, definitive and absolute. You then ignore the flow and form of the entire Bible being one of obedience to God.
Your weak attempts at guilt by association are obvious. Trust only regeneration theology is the mainstay of televangelism yet their excesses does not prove other cheap grace salvationists wrong, just in bad company.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; not withstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with hisworks, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; not withstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with hisworks, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Cheap grace is a derogatory term that I often hear works-salvationists apply to believers who understand that man is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone and that our salvation is secure in Christ. I do not discount the cost of discipleship in the Christian life or teach a license to sin, so your argument is just another straw man argument.
It's not about as long as we make a profession of faith, yet no good works/acts of obedience follow that we are saved anyway, which is not genuine faith, but an empty profession of faith. So saved by an empty profession of faith that does not result in a transformed life and good works is not what I teach. Man is saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and we have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2). God’s grace is sufficient, which is a wonderful truth!
The apostle Paul clearly said in Romans 5:20 - The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 5:20-21).
Yet, Paul also said this: "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" (Romans 6:1-2). Salvation by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone is more than simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" and trusting in works for salvation, as many people will find out the hard way at the judgment (Matthew 7:21-22). Again, we are not saved by an empty profession of faith. We are not saved by simply reciting the sinner’s prayer (apart from repentance and faith).
We are saved by authentic faith in Christ, which is a living and active faith, a faith that manifests itself in good works/obedience, practicing righteousness and not sin, and love (James 2:14-26; Hebrews 5:9; 1 John 3:9-10; 1 John 4:7). Paul said it best when he says we are "new creations" in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). The old has gone the new is here! Praise God!
There is nothing "cheap" about grace.
That is sugar coated double talk and an oxymoron. There is no such thing as a genuine believer who never obeys Him.
I already pointed out that only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, AMD only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commands and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him.
John 3:16 clearly states that those who BELIEVE IN HIM "apart from additions or modifications" (no list of works is added here to BELIEVES IN HIM) shall not perish, but have eternal life. Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16; 10:16) which is not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which FOLLOW and are produced "out of" faith. We are saved through faith, not works. Don't confuse the root of salvation (faith) with the fruit (good works/multiple acts of obedience that follow having been saved through faith).
Another straw man argument. Your weak attempts at cheapening grace and faith by teaching salvation by works are obvious.
It's not about as long as we make a profession of faith, yet no good works/acts of obedience follow that we are saved anyway, which is not genuine faith, but an empty profession of faith. So saved by an empty profession of faith that does not result in a transformed life and good works is not what I teach. Man is saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and we have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2). God’s grace is sufficient, which is a wonderful truth!
The apostle Paul clearly said in Romans 5:20 - The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 5:20-21).
Yet, Paul also said this: "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" (Romans 6:1-2). Salvation by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone is more than simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" and trusting in works for salvation, as many people will find out the hard way at the judgment (Matthew 7:21-22). Again, we are not saved by an empty profession of faith. We are not saved by simply reciting the sinner’s prayer (apart from repentance and faith).
We are saved by authentic faith in Christ, which is a living and active faith, a faith that manifests itself in good works/obedience, practicing righteousness and not sin, and love (James 2:14-26; Hebrews 5:9; 1 John 3:9-10; 1 John 4:7). Paul said it best when he says we are "new creations" in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). The old has gone the new is here! Praise God!
There is nothing "cheap" about grace. That is sugar coated double talk and an oxymoron. There is no such thing as a genuine believer who never obeys Him.
I already pointed out that only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, AMD only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commands and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him.
John 3:16 clearly states that those who BELIEVE IN HIM "apart from additions or modifications" (no list of works is added here to BELIEVES IN HIM) shall not perish, but have eternal life. Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16; 10:16) which is not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which FOLLOW and are produced "out of" faith. We are saved through faith, not works. Don't confuse the root of salvation (faith) with the fruit (good works/multiple acts of obedience that follow having been saved through faith).
Another straw man argument.
Your weak attempts at cheapening grace and faith by teaching salvation by works are obvious.As is your custom you omit the meat of the scriptures which can't be used to support your lifestyle.
Subtle, yes, cleaver, yes. But not edifying. Yes, I have read the New Testament and I don't have to throw out any scriptures in order to defend some religious franchise doctrines.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
And again:
Matt. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
How can you know the Father when you reject His Words? The mainstream preachers of Christ's time were rejected because of the same "works". How are you immune to this same judgment?John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
I know you are not allowed to see this. But for others reading; Ask yourself a question?
Do you think these that walked away from Jesus became Atheists? Or is it more likely they just found or created another Path to heaven.
Is it possible that these just created their own version of God? Maybe created an image of some long haired pretty boy with a perfect profile and different Commandments? Maybe created their own "Feasts unto the Lord" so they didn't have to deal with the God their flesh hates.
Food for thought.
Subtle, yes, cleaver, yes. But not edifying. Yes, I have read the New Testament and I don't have to throw out any scriptures in order to defend some religious franchise doctrines.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
And again:
Matt. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
How can you know the Father when you reject His Words? The mainstream preachers of Christ's time were rejected because of the same "works". How are you immune to this same judgment?John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
I know you are not allowed to see this. But for others reading; Ask yourself a question?
Do you think these that walked away from Jesus became Atheists? Or is it more likely they just found or created another Path to heaven.
Is it possible that these just created their own version of God? Maybe created an image of some long haired pretty boy with a perfect profile and different Commandments? Maybe created their own "Feasts unto the Lord" so they didn't have to deal with the God their flesh hates.
Food for thought.
1Cor. 15 1-4, The Gospel by which we are saved is believing in your heart the death, burial and resurrection plus nothing. God knows your heart thus if you do then you are one of His. Learn to rightly devide and to be good stewards of the now revealed mysteries. For the correct and only way go to LesFeldick.org
In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.
In James 2:15-16, to give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is not the demonstrative evidence of genuine faith.
In James 2:17, this kind of faith is dead and alone because it's an empty profession of faith and not genuine faith. Says/claims to have faith in James 2:14 is the key word. *Genuine faith is alive in Christ and produces good works (Ephesians 2:5-10). An empty profession of faith that remains "alone" - barren of works (James) is not to be confused with salvation through faith in Christ "alone" not saved by works (Paul).
In James 2:18, we show (key word) our faith by our works, but we do not establish it. James is discussing the proof/demonstrative evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
In James 2:20, we read that "faith without works is dead," which once again is an empty profession of faith/dead faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works - James 2:14) and not genuine faith.
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous."
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his work of offering up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." Again, James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with a living faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (verse 12), received the promise of kindness (verse 14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (verse 21), as the demonstration of her living faith. She proved her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all true believers prove theirs.
In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not the works; rather, life in faith is the source of the works.
In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*
In James 2:15-16, to give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is not the demonstrative evidence of genuine faith.
In James 2:17, this kind of faith is dead and alone because it's an empty profession of faith and not genuine faith. Says/claims to have faith in James 2:14 is the key word. *Genuine faith is alive in Christ and produces good works (Ephesians 2:5-10). An empty profession of faith that remains "alone" - barren of works (James) is not to be confused with salvation through faith in Christ "alone" not saved by works (Paul).
In James 2:18, we show (key word) our faith by our works, but we do not establish it. James is discussing the proof/demonstrative evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
In James 2:20, we read that "faith without works is dead," which once again is an empty profession of faith/dead faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works - James 2:14) and not genuine faith.
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous."
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his work of offering up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." Again, James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with a living faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (verse 12), received the promise of kindness (verse 14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (verse 21), as the demonstration of her living faith. She proved her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all true believers prove theirs.
In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not the works; rather, life in faith is the source of the works.
In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*
My favorite is like your post only I believe right on the nail. When Jesus was asked what a prson is to do in order to enter the Kingdom of God, His reply was simple, believe that He is the Son of God.
When we believe Jesus Christ, we do, and not just render lip service. Praise Jesus Christ, surely He is returning soon, amen.
When we believe Jesus Christ, we do, and not just render lip service. Praise Jesus Christ, surely He is returning soon, amen.
E
Not all believers obey? Where do you get this from? How can a child of God, who has the HS,. Who has chosen to place TRUE faith in christ (if they did not have true faith, they are not saved) who are chastened by God as children. Who John said clearly do not love in sin, BECAUSE they have been born of God. Not obey.
You need to study the Bible more man. You have God saving sinners who he knew would continue to live in sin. God is not that weak that he does not know who has TRUE faith vs those who have no faith at all. Just talk.
E
Cheap grace is a derogatory term that I often hear works-salvationists apply to believers who understand that man is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone and that our salvation is secure in Christ. I do not discount the cost of discipleship in the Christian life or teach a license to sin, so your argument is just another straw man argument.
It's not about as long as we make a profession of faith, yet no good works/acts of obedience follow that we are saved anyway, which is not genuine faith, but an empty profession of faith. So saved by an empty profession of faith that does not result in a transformed life and good works is not what I teach. Man is saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and we have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2). God’s grace is sufficient, which is a wonderful truth!
The apostle Paul clearly said in Romans 5:20 - The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 5:20-21).
Yet, Paul also said this: "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" (Romans 6:1-2). Salvation by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone is more than simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" and trusting in works for salvation, as many people will find out the hard way at the judgment (Matthew 7:21-22). Again, we are not saved by an empty profession of faith. We are not saved by simply reciting the sinner’s prayer (apart from repentance and faith).
We are saved by authentic faith in Christ, which is a living and active faith, a faith that manifests itself in good works/obedience, practicing righteousness and not sin, and love (James 2:14-26; Hebrews 5:9; 1 John 3:9-10; 1 John 4:7). Paul said it best when he says we are "new creations" in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). The old has gone the new is here! Praise God! There is nothing "cheap" about grace.
That is sugar coated double talk and an oxymoron. There is no such thing as a genuine believer who never obeys Him.
I already pointed out that only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, AMD only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commands and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him.
John 3:16 clearly states that those who BELIEVE IN HIM "apart from additions or modifications" (no list of works is added here to BELIEVES IN HIM) shall not perish, but have eternal life. Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16; 10:16) which is not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which FOLLOW and are produced "out of" faith. We are saved through faith, not works. Don't confuse the root of salvation (faith) with the fruit (good works/multiple acts of obedience that follow having been saved through faith).
Another straw man argument. Your weak attempts at cheapening grace and faith by teaching salvation by works are obvious.
It's not about as long as we make a profession of faith, yet no good works/acts of obedience follow that we are saved anyway, which is not genuine faith, but an empty profession of faith. So saved by an empty profession of faith that does not result in a transformed life and good works is not what I teach. Man is saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and we have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2). God’s grace is sufficient, which is a wonderful truth!
The apostle Paul clearly said in Romans 5:20 - The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 5:20-21).
Yet, Paul also said this: "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" (Romans 6:1-2). Salvation by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone is more than simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" and trusting in works for salvation, as many people will find out the hard way at the judgment (Matthew 7:21-22). Again, we are not saved by an empty profession of faith. We are not saved by simply reciting the sinner’s prayer (apart from repentance and faith).
We are saved by authentic faith in Christ, which is a living and active faith, a faith that manifests itself in good works/obedience, practicing righteousness and not sin, and love (James 2:14-26; Hebrews 5:9; 1 John 3:9-10; 1 John 4:7). Paul said it best when he says we are "new creations" in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). The old has gone the new is here! Praise God!
There is nothing "cheap" about grace. That is sugar coated double talk and an oxymoron. There is no such thing as a genuine believer who never obeys Him.
I already pointed out that only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, AMD only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commands and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him.
John 3:16 clearly states that those who BELIEVE IN HIM "apart from additions or modifications" (no list of works is added here to BELIEVES IN HIM) shall not perish, but have eternal life. Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16; 10:16) which is not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which FOLLOW and are produced "out of" faith. We are saved through faith, not works. Don't confuse the root of salvation (faith) with the fruit (good works/multiple acts of obedience that follow having been saved through faith).
Another straw man argument.
Your weak attempts at cheapening grace and faith by teaching salvation by works are obvious.
amen bro.
I do not think they enderstand
Grace is not cheep. It Cost YHWH God 33 years living as a human with the pains and limitations their in, Being bound as we are to a small creature living on this very small planet. who was mocked, beat to the very inch of his life. Endured the shame and extreme pain on the cross. And had to suffer death.
And I am sure many things we are not even aware of.
Grace was very expensive. In fact, it cost more than all the men and women who ever walked the face of the earth united could never pay.
Yet they want to cheapen it, Then wonder why Gods true children get angry when they mock the very God that paid this massive price so they could be restored to fellowship with himself.
MMD,
You said:
Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
This quote is from the Old Testament, the only scriptures on the planet about the God of Abraham to teach from at the time. So isn't Paul saying that the Old Testament IS the Gospel of Christ?
Isn't that where God's Righteousness and God's Wrath are revealed.
Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
Matt. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
How can you preach that the "Gospel of Christ" is something different than the Old Testament? Paul didn't. Jesus didn't. Neither of them were "ashamed" of the Gospel.
How can you know the real Jesus if you are tricked into rejecting the "Gospel" that teaches about Him?
You said:
Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
This quote is from the Old Testament, the only scriptures on the planet about the God of Abraham to teach from at the time. So isn't Paul saying that the Old Testament IS the Gospel of Christ?
Isn't that where God's Righteousness and God's Wrath are revealed.
Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
Matt. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
How can you preach that the "Gospel of Christ" is something different than the Old Testament? Paul didn't. Jesus didn't. Neither of them were "ashamed" of the Gospel.
How can you know the real Jesus if you are tricked into rejecting the "Gospel" that teaches about Him?
E
Here is what I know.
You have not list4ened to a word Grandpa or anyone else has said.
Almost every one of your posts are filled with facts you think we are blind in, when in fact, we understand them very well.
Maybe one day you will get off your high horse, and stop listening to whoever taught you this view of what other believe (it is quite obvious you have been indoctrinated what others believe, You prove it by continually saying we need to hear these words. We not only have already heard, But preach also) and actually start listening to what people are actually trying to show you.
Sadly, rarely if ever have I seen someone in your situation on CC humble themselves enough to do this. But as someone told me yesterday concerning another member, there is always hope.
You have not list4ened to a word Grandpa or anyone else has said.
Almost every one of your posts are filled with facts you think we are blind in, when in fact, we understand them very well.
Maybe one day you will get off your high horse, and stop listening to whoever taught you this view of what other believe (it is quite obvious you have been indoctrinated what others believe, You prove it by continually saying we need to hear these words. We not only have already heard, But preach also) and actually start listening to what people are actually trying to show you.
Sadly, rarely if ever have I seen someone in your situation on CC humble themselves enough to do this. But as someone told me yesterday concerning another member, there is always hope.