They shall never perish and no one can snatch out of my hands ... KJVJohn10:27-30 27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28. And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no men is able to pluck out of my Father's hand. 30. I and my Father are one.
Verse for "once saved always saved"?
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Yes, Jesus has "other sheep" which are not of this fold, outside of Israel, in other words, Gentiles (John 10:16).
Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for/unto the day of redemption.
The seal is permanent, yet certain people prefer to remain on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security and they want others to join them. Misery loves company!
Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for/unto the day of redemption.
The seal is permanent, yet certain people prefer to remain on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security and they want others to join them. Misery loves company!
Yes, Jesus has "other sheep" which are not of this fold, outside of Israel, in other words, Gentiles (John 10:16).
Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for/unto the day of redemption.
The seal is permanent, yet certain people prefer to remain on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security and they want others to join them. Misery loves company!
Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for/unto the day of redemption.
The seal is permanent, yet certain people prefer to remain on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security and they want others to join them. Misery loves company!
I know God hears me, but that doesn't mean I know he's granting anything. Humble and bold doesn't guarantee anything you ask. Otherwise I'd be like Bruce Lee (even though I was forced to give up martial arts by God
).
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I think Jesus once said, if a sheep wanders away and leaves the flock, Jesus will leave the whole flock to go find that one lost sheep. HIS TRUE sheep (the ones who belong to him) will hear his voice when he calls, and follow him. SHeep that do not belong to him will never return
I am sure in a crowd, the sheep which are not his follow the crowd. But once they walk away from that crowd. They continue walking., because they get lost and can not hear their master. And since Jesus is not their master, they would never hear him (let alone Jesus leave the whole flock to go get him)
I am sure in a crowd, the sheep which are not his follow the crowd. But once they walk away from that crowd. They continue walking., because they get lost and can not hear their master. And since Jesus is not their master, they would never hear him (let alone Jesus leave the whole flock to go get him)
"You said the sheep who is continuing to hear God is in the Fathers Hand." - Grandpa
Exactly!
"So, in order to be plucked from His Hand, and NOT have eternal security what has to happen?" Grandpa
Good question! Is there such a thing? Can it happen? How, when, why would it happen?
The point is this text does not answer that question.
So if this text does not say that once a believer is saved he is always saved, then why do people try to use this text to prove "eternal security"?
Exactly!
"So, in order to be plucked from His Hand, and NOT have eternal security what has to happen?" Grandpa
Good question! Is there such a thing? Can it happen? How, when, why would it happen?
The point is this text does not answer that question.
So if this text does not say that once a believer is saved he is always saved, then why do people try to use this text to prove "eternal security"?
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[FONT="]Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.[b] [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]30 I and My Father are one.”
[/FONT][FONT="]I think it is simple really.
1. Those who do not believe never hear him and are not his sheep
2. Those who are. Hear him and follow him (using your line of reasoning, they always follow him)
3. He gives them ETERNAL LIFE (eternal is forever)
4, They (his sheep) will never die. Never means never
5. No one (no one includes all people. Including the person being held) can pluck them from jesus hand, His father is greater, no one (including self) can pluck us from his hands.
[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
First of all, the text doesn't say what YOU are trying to imply it says.
"The sheep who is continuing to hear God is in the Fathers Hand". The text doesn't say that. You have inferred that.
So you are twisting scripture to suit your needs.
But what the text is implying, you will not allow.
John 10:28-29
[FONT="]28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.[/FONT]
[FONT="]29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
This implies that the only way to lose eternal life is for God to go back on His Promises. God must pluck a person from His Own Hand in order to lose Salvation.
Eternal Life. Just the meaning of that shows that it can't be taken away. If you are given something that is eternal it is forever. If it could be taken away it wouldn't be called eternal, it would be called temporary or performance based life.[/FONT]
"The sheep who is continuing to hear God is in the Fathers Hand". The text doesn't say that. You have inferred that.
So you are twisting scripture to suit your needs.
But what the text is implying, you will not allow.
John 10:28-29
[FONT="]28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.[/FONT]
[FONT="]29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
This implies that the only way to lose eternal life is for God to go back on His Promises. God must pluck a person from His Own Hand in order to lose Salvation.
Eternal Life. Just the meaning of that shows that it can't be taken away. If you are given something that is eternal it is forever. If it could be taken away it wouldn't be called eternal, it would be called temporary or performance based life.[/FONT]
That would be a difference, in a mind-set, between one who was "saved off the street", and, one who had grew up in a church of stone, from the time they were knee high to a grasshopper, and baptized at an early age. This being baptized, in hindsight, like a "right of passage", much like a "bar-mitzvah", is just something one did, upon reaching a certain age. And, is rather expected, by the parents, and the entire "church family", for that matter. Whether the "inductee
", had much say so in the matter was of little consequence. Yet, the honoring of father and mother were! In a rapture professing church? It doesn't take too many times hearing "We don't have to understand, (because) we're gonna be gone!" One either learns to stop asking spiritually deep questions, and get along with the "program", to keep from being oppressed, in a "Skunk 'em n Dunk 'em" atmosphere? Which also includes to Cease from reading the Bible of one's own volition, as the Preacher will teach all one NEEDS to know! As well as "This guy is asking too many of the wrong questions, and needs to get his mind right, in preparing him for "Honorable Christian Service!" So, here comes the list of PREFERRED Bible Colleges. Usually, 1 er 2, to which the women may wish to attend, in the seeking for a husband, and vicey versey. So? Such goes the "life cycle", of a rapture professing church of stone, and the how it perpetuates itself. Fleshly, very "alive and vibrant", but spiritually, "dumber then a box of rocks", IMHO! And God, in His long suffering tough love, will not allow for very much spiritual growth, for the "risk" of the unpardonable sin, because He loves even these people that MUCH! And, even though it sounds like sending them delusion, so that they will believe a lie, it's not! What it IS however, is a kind/TYPE, of Love, that a good parent might do to one's child in correcting them, but Certainly NOT, what Jesus would do to His Church! Well? They would be right! Because it's NOT Jesus! And? It's NOT Jesus' decision to make! But, it IS, His Father's in heaven's decision!
Sorry, for the rant. Just a whole lot of pent up frustration, brought about from being oppressed, which actually, caused me to grow inwardly, yet always HOLDING FIRM onto the faith, that God will never leave, nor forsake you!
Yet? Kudo's are due, even in these types of churches, inasmuch, as they do teach fundamentals of the way, that as one grows "longer in the tooth", they won't depart from. And, the Gospel Armour they wear, causes them to be defensible of the faith. But, HARDLY a threat, to the enemies of the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light. Which is why the enemies of the Kingdom of God, and the Kingdom of Light, have just rolled RIGHT OVER 'em! For Millennia! I guess the "pendulum swing, like the pendulum do!"
(Anyway)
Or? One can rebel!
Just a weird scene from "inside the goldmine" of a rapture professing church of "brick and mortar."
Yes, Jesus has "other sheep" which are not of this fold, outside of Israel, in other words, Gentiles (John 10:16).
Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for/unto the day of redemption.
The seal is permanent, yet certain people prefer to remain on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security and they want others to join them. Misery loves company!
Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for/unto the day of redemption.
The seal is permanent, yet certain people prefer to remain on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security and they want others to join them. Misery loves company!