Why are we waiting ?

[Marcelo]

For me it is Deut 5v22These words (beginning v1 and citing the 10 Com) the Lord spoke to all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick darkness with a great voice: and he added no more' and he wrote them on 2 tables of stone and delivered them unto me.

When it says 'he added no more ' (to the 10) to me it shows they are separate from the other commandments...

Thanks, Beta, it makes sense. I'll read all this, and the whole chapter, tomorrow -- it's time for bed in my time zone (11:20 PM). See you! God bless!

 

[beta]

Just be filled daily and He will come. We don't want to "act" without His anointing.

oh, sorry, didn't see that this thread was going to be about laws.

Since 'all things work together for the perfecting of the man/woman of God it is difficult to stay 'contained in one topic ....people are on different levels and have different priorities but still interact...no worries !

 

[Nehemiah6]

He said He had not come to destroy the law...so why should He then do just that and change the days ?

You seem to have missed the part where Christ FULFILLED the Law by becoming the First Fruits of them that slept. So He fulfilled the Feast of First Fruits (as He did the Feast of Passover). So you are trailing far behind in failing to see this. You simply refuse to believe that it is the Lord Jesus Christ who designated the first day of the week as the Lord's Day. You keep insisting it is man-made, when it is a Divine arrangement for the Church.

Israel already had their sabbaths, and they specialized in BREAKING them. Read Ezra-Nehemiah. And because they broke the sabbath rests of the land for 490 years, Judah went into Babylonian captivity for 70 years.

 

[beta]

You seem to have missed the part where Christ FULFILLED the Law by becoming the First Fruits of them that slept. So He fulfilled the Feast of First Fruits (as He did the Feast of Passover). So you are trailing far behind in failing to see this. You simply refuse to believe that it is the Lord Jesus Christ who designated the first day of the week as the Lord's Day. You keep insisting it is man-made, when it is a Divine arrangement for the Church.

Israel already had their sabbaths, and they specialized in BREAKING them. Read Ezra-Nehemiah. And because they broke the sabbath rests of the land for 490 years, Judah went into Babylonian captivity for 70 years.

True, Judah went into captivity for breaking the Sabbath but some were later allowed to return Neh 8, and they became very very very zealous to keep the law from that time on so that they started adding their own laws to God's by the time Jesus came on the scene...and HE was not pleased with them Mat 23.
But who is still missing ? who is still in captivity to this day for breaking the Sabbath ? the chidren of the house of ISRAEL who had become a separate Kingdom and are still walking 'contrary to God today...please read 2 Kgs ch 17...it may open your eyes as to WHO christians really are...and why they are still in captivity...ignorant even of their own identity as punishment for Sabbath-breaking, stubborness and rebellion.

 

[Studyman]

Hi Studyman,


Sabbath keepers argue that it is the example of Jesus that gives us the reason for keeping the Sabbath.

"He kept the Sabbath, so I must keep the Sabbath. Jesus is my example," they say. Well this kind of reasoning is flawed because it only chooses Jesus' Sabbath keeping and rejects the rest of His Jewish lifestyle. Jesus also kept Kosher laws. He kept the Passover, Sukkot, Hanukkah, and worshipped in the temple. Are we to follow everything He did?

Galatians 4:4-5 says that Jesus lived under the Law to redeem us from the Law.
"But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons." (NIV)




JESUS WAS ALSO ACCUSED OF SABBATH BREAKING. Why, if He wanted to be our "example" in Sabbath keeping didn't He make it clear that He was not breaking the Sabbath? Instead He clearly admits to it. He also admits that His disciples were breaking the Sabbath and He defends them. Read Matthew 12:1- 14 carefully.Jesus is clearly saying that His disciples are like the priests who may work in the temple every Sabbath and be innocent of breaking the Sabbath. When Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath" He is declaring that He is above the Sabbath. He may do what He wishes on the Sabbath and therefore His disciples may do whatever they wish as well.

Apparently Jesus did break the Sabbath: "Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, "This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath."..." John 9:15.If Jesus did not want us to understand that He was breaking the Sabbath why did He not speak against these accusations. It's because Jesus had the right and the authority to break the Sabbath because He is Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath does not bind Him. Think about this, if it does not bind Him, are we not "in Christ"? Why would it be any more binding upon us. (Again Read Matthew 12:1-14 carefully).

One of the issues that needs to be honestly faced is the fact that Jesus never commanded anyone to keep the Sabbath and none of His apostles ever commanded anyone to keep it either. Not once in the New Testament are we told to keep the Sabbath. Those commands to the Church are conspicuously absent from the teachings of the New Testament.

EVERY MENTION OF THE SABBATH IN THE BOOK OF ACTS without a single exception is in connection with Jewish worship on that day and not Christian celebration. Paul's evangelistic strategy was to go to the Jews first in a community and share the Gospel with them. Sabbath is the day when he knew he would find the most Jews gathering for worship. He knew he would have his best opportunity of sharing the good news of the Messiah to the Jews on Sabbath. It was not because he was meeting with a group of believing Christians. He was meeting with non-Christian Jews.

I am not a Catholic, therefore I don't adhere to Catholic Preaching. There isn't a person on the planet that doesn't know the Catholic Church created it's own Bible, it's own version of God, their own High Days, and their own righteousness.

They claim that Jesus gave them authority to create these things. But I don't believe Jesus did, not because of some church tradition, but because of what the Bible actually says.

You cut and paste sermons do not replace the inspired Word of God. For you they do, but for me they don't.

These sermons are just more of what Jesus rejected the Mainstream Preachers of His time for.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

I would post the many scriptures that expose your doctrine as from man and not from God. But scriptures are not sacred for you. They can be altered, changed, and even rejected as long as they support your church traditions.

You CANNOT accept this any more than the Mainstream preachers of Christ time could accept the Scriptures that condemned them.

 

[Marcelo]

For me it is Deut 5v22These words (beginning v1 and citing the 10 Com) the Lord spoke to all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick darkness with a great voice: and he added no more' and he wrote them on 2 tables of stone and delivered them unto me.

"...and he added no more!" These words may be an indication that the Ten Commandments are more important than the rest of the Law, but they are still the law of Moses.

If Gentiles were required to keep the Sabbath, Paul would have written at least a few lines on how to do it.

At least in Brazil, Seventh Day Adventists preach that we (Christians who don't keep the Sabbath) will not be saved on account of violation of the 4th commandment. The New Testament states that fornicators, adulterers, liars, idolaters, etc, will not be saved, but it never says that those who don't keep the Sabbath will not be saved.

I see that you, Beta, and many other Sabbath keepers are sincere Christians and you folks feel that it's your duty to "open our eyes". God sees the good intention in your hearts, but He also sees that we, too, are being sincere.

But, anyway, we can continue our debate because it's always nice to search the Bible. I'm very far from being a Bible expert, so I thank you for keeping your posts short. They don't bore me at all, but I will feel more comfortable if we go at a slow pace. Actually I started to go deeper into the Scriptures a couple of years ago, after my retirement.

 

[beta]

"...and he added no more!" These words may be an indication that the Ten Commandments are more important than the rest of the Law, but they are still the law of Moses.

If Gentiles were required to keep the Sabbath, Paul would have written at least a few lines on how to do it.

At least in Brazil, Seventh Day Adventists preach that we (Christians who don't keep the Sabbath) will not be saved on account of violation of the 4th commandment. The New Testament states that fornicators, adulterers, liars, idolaters, etc, will not be saved, but it never says that those who don't keep the Sabbath will not be saved.

I see that you, Beta, and many other Sabbath keepers are sincere Christians and you folks feel that it's your duty to "open our eyes". God sees the good intention in your hearts, but He also sees that we, too, are being sincere.

But, anyway, we can continue our debate because it's always nice to search the Bible. I'm very far from being a Bible expert, so I thank you for keeping your posts short. They don't bore me at all, but I will feel more comfortable if we go at a slow pace. Actually I started to go deeper into the Scriptures a couple of years ago, after my retirement.

Thanks for taking the time to reply but let me say I am not SDA nor ever have been....as for opening others eyes, well only GOD can do that...but since He does not force anyone I suppose it is up to us 'if-when-or ever we do so.
Paul did say 'we should follow him as he follows Christ who OBVIOUSLY kept the Sabbath and His Fathers Commandments....so in a round-about way he was telling us ! but when people are deaf and blind how can they understand ? in order to be healed of deafness and blindness as well as all other maladies the sick person has to be 'turned to Christ Jesus so ...it is a Christians duty to tell them. You may not like it but that is the Will of God...it's part of the 10 Commandments to 'love neighbour and not let him be destroyed in hell. It's all in scripture Marcelo ! God bless you !

 

[phil36]

I am not a Catholic, therefore I don't adhere to Catholic Preaching. There isn't a person on the planet that doesn't know the Catholic Church created it's own Bible, it's own version of God, their own High Days, and their own righteousness.

They claim that Jesus gave them authority to create these things. But I don't believe Jesus did, not because of some church tradition, but because of what the Bible actually says.

You cut and paste sermons do not replace the inspired Word of God. For you they do, but for me they don't.

These sermons are just more of what Jesus rejected the Mainstream Preachers of His time for.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

I would post the many scriptures that expose your doctrine as from man and not from God. But scriptures are not sacred for you. They can be altered, changed, and even rejected as long as they support your church traditions.

You CANNOT accept this any more than the Mainstream preachers of Christ time could accept the Scriptures that condemned them.

Hi Studyman,

For some reason you read your dislike for Roman Catholicism back into early church history. You are either Historically ignorant or dishonest or even both?


you say this:

You cut and paste sermons do not replace the inspired Word of God. For you they do, but for me they don't

Now, isn't it interesting when someone uses such an argument, they themselves are putting themselves on a peddle stool. Have a look back at the many posts (long posts) that you have written... are we to ignore them because you a man wrote them? That would be very silly wouldn't it Studyman? When something is written you read then measure it against scripture. You just don't go around saying that YOU teach the word and everyone else just types words of men.. Do you see the silliness in this? I hope you do!


And again, we see your dishonesty, well maybe your ignorance when you say that what I posted was Catholic, however it certainly is catholic (small 'c')

 

[Marcelo]

Thanks for taking the time to reply but let me say I am not SDA nor ever have been....as for opening others eyes, well only GOD can do that...but since He does not force anyone I suppose it is up to us 'if-when-or ever we do so.
Paul did say 'we should follow him as he follows Christ who OBVIOUSLY kept the Sabbath and His Fathers Commandments....so in a round-about way he was telling us ! but when people are deaf and blind how can they understand ? in order to be healed of deafness and blindness as well as all other maladies the sick person has to be 'turned to Christ Jesus so ...it is a Christians duty to tell them. You may not like it but that is the Will of God...it's part of the 10 Commandments to 'love neighbour and not let him be destroyed in hell. It's all in scripture Marcelo ! God bless you !

The Lord, while on earth, preached salvation by the Law, but after the resurrection He used Paul to preach salvation by grace through faith. So, in his earthly ministry the Lord taught -- through his example -- Sabbath keeping, but from His throne in heaven He taught otherwise: Rm 14:5-6"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind."

I'm not a Sunday keeper, I think all days are holly.

I don’t call you deaf or blind, I just think your interpretation is different from ours. God will take into account our interpretation skills and will judge us accordingly.

 

[dcontroversal]

Transformation is a process of daily sanctification with successes and failures....See Romans 12:1-2 based upon the study and application of the word....this is also subject to the level of teaching one gets....if one gets or consumes nothing but milk = stunted growth

 

[beta]

Transformation is a process of daily sanctification with successes and failures....See Romans 12:1-2 based upon the study and application of the word....this is also subject to the level of teaching one gets....if one gets or consumes nothing but milk = stunted growth

Yes I can agree that transformation is a process of daily growth...depending on what we ingest....sadly some are stuck on an 'inferior diet and will not make it to perfection.

 

[beta]

The Lord, while on earth, preached salvation by the Law, but after the resurrection He used Paul to preach salvation by grace through faith. So, in his earthly ministry the Lord taught -- through his example -- Sabbath keeping, but from His throne in heaven He taught otherwise: Rm 14:5-6"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind."

I'm not a Sunday keeper, I think all days are holly.

I don’t call you deaf or blind, I just think your interpretation is different from ours. God will take into account our interpretation skills and will judge us accordingly.

Oh dear...I have offended you ! not intentionally but it is almost unavoidable when people have a difference in understanding. I could have expressed myself better when ref to blind and deaf....meaning ALL including self UNtil we are turned to the Lord...the REAL Lord.
Most people/christians who believe in Jesus assume him to be the right one...it does not enter their mind they could be deceived to follow a false christ as warned against Mat 24.
But let's see what you said...Jesus was teaching DIFFERENT from BEFORE resurrection and AFTER resurrection through Paul....who seems to be telling people they can now 'do what they want, choose any day they like Rom 14. Did Paul really say that ? not at all ! he said ''that is what some people do'' which is in no way telling us to do the same....because in 1Cor 11v1 Paul says ''be you followers of me as I also follow Christ'' and we all know that Yashua the real Jesus kept Sabbath and his Fathers Commandments...and is the same yesterday, today and for ever. Are you with me so far Marcelo ?
We can see from the OT that people have never wanted to obey God and the least loophole will be taken by them to escape further restrictions on their free will...so they jump on 'choosing their own day' which basically just shows God how they hate HIS Holy day...which neither HE nor Paul have changed . Do you think they will be in the Kgd of God ? It's an honest question and not an accusation (was there myself once and know that change is hard).

 

[loveme1]

The Lord, while on earth, preached salvation by the Law, but after the resurrection He used Paul to preach salvation by grace through faith. So, in his earthly ministry the Lord taught -- through his example -- Sabbath keeping, but from His throne in heaven He taught otherwise: Rm 14:5-6"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind."

I'm not a Sunday keeper, I think all days are holly.

I don’t call you deaf or blind, I just think your interpretation is different from ours. God will take into account our interpretation skills and will judge us accordingly.

The Lord said this:


Matthew 28

[FONT=&quot]16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


I think your theory is wrong..

here:

John 1


14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


The writings of Paul are purposeful... even the proverb of Saul rings true..

Peter declared Paul Beloved but also warned against His writings.. yet many exalt Paul and hearts are proved... [/FONT]

 

[beta]

The Lord said this:


Matthew 28

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


I think your theory is wrong..

here:

John 1


14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


The writings of Paul are purposeful... even the proverb of Saul rings true..

Peter declared Paul Beloved but also warned against His writings.. yet many exalt Paul and hearts are proved...

Yes Paul's writings can easily be MISunderstood and I actually believe that they (some writings of his) are thus worded for a reason...not to lead people astray but to 'stream them into 2 groups = genuine Believers and casual believers. We see from scripture that some walked with Jesus and some only followed him for their own reasons.
So How can we know we are walking with the authentic Jesus who actually died for us and rose again ...and not his counterfeit smuggled in after the resurrection ?? there are several ways we can know...
1) He would be the 'Lord of the Sabbath'
2)He would teach His Father's principles before and after resurrection
3)He would be the same today as He was yesterday

God and His Son do not change...it is man who must change !

 

[posthuman]

Obvious question: Who's waiting?

Another obvious question:
Waiting to do what?
To do something?
To be led?
To receive something?
To have something be done to us?
To witness something take place?

OP quotes the promise of a Comforter - waiting to be comforted?

 

[beta]

Another obvious question:
Waiting to do what?
To do something?
To be led?
To receive something?
To have something be done to us?
To witness something take place?

OP quotes the promise of a Comforter - waiting to be comforted?

Scripture tells us that the Comforter does more than just 'comfort...He is the Spirit of Truth and a Teacher to guide us into all Truth Joh 14v26....
so maybe we should expect to learn something we don't know yet ?

 

[Marcelo]

But let's see what you said...Jesus was teaching DIFFERENT from BEFORE resurrection and AFTER resurrection through Paul....

This is evident: Jesus taught obedience to scribes and Pharisees; told the man cured from leprosy to show himself to the priest and offer the sacrifice Moses commanded; taught His disciples to wash one another's feet; etc.

Did Paul really say that ?

Here's what Paul said: Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

The reality is found in Christ, He is our Sabbath (our rest).

...so they jump on 'choosing their own day' which basically just shows God how they hate HIS Holy day...which neither HE nor Paul have changed .

I didn't choose any day -- for me all days are holy! I don't keep the Sabbath because it is not a commandment for Christians. The Sabbath was a shadow -- the reality is Christ.

Speaking of disobedience, do you happen to wear a veil when you pray? Do brothers and sisters in your congregation salute one another with a holy kiss? Have you already sold your possessions and given the money to the poor?

Even if Sabbath keeping were required of Christians, I don't think it would affect salvation, especially if the person is doing their best to properly interpret Scriptures. Failure to keep the Sabbath is very different from committing adultery, for example. If a person is misled to commit adultery they will fall into the ditch together with all the false teachers.

Again, we (you and I) interpret Scriptures differently. We are both doing our best to serve the Lord and He knows that. Just like you, Beta, I'm seeking salvation and I wouldn't be so stupid as to cheat on God.

 

[Marcelo]

The Lord said this:


Matthew 28

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


I think your theory is wrong..

Great, Loveme1, this is what I expect from my brothers and sisters: to show me where I am wrong. I will re-examine this subject very carefully. God bless you!

 

[Enow]

I think we need to, myself included, better focus on doing His will.

Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

What Bible version are you using and how do you not know if that is a Bible you should avoid?

Matthew 28:[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.[SUP] 19 [/SUP]Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:[SUP]20[/SUP]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

If your Bible version has this reference below differently...

Matthew 7:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:[SUP] 14 [/SUP]Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

You may want to ask the Lord Jesus Christ if you should not be relying only on the KJV. As it is, how can you ever claim that you are resting in Him as your Good Shepherd in following Him since you had been saved?

Matthew 16:24-27, “Then יהושע said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his stake, and follow Me.

Stake? the KJV has it as cross.

Matthew 16:[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

That means acknowledging that you are not able to obey Him in keeping everything He has taught in following Him, acknowledged what He has done on the cross for us, and by leaning on Him all the time, we can follow Him.

For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it. For what is a man profited if he gains all the world, and loses his own life? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his life? For the Son of Aḏam is going to come in the esteem of His Father with His messengers, and then He shall reward each according to his works.”

If it is not we who live but Christ lives in us, then where is boasting? The crowns we receive are His crowning achievements in us. To be rewarded is by our faith in Him as we are His workmanship. Indeed, we are to be dead and hid in Christ so that when the Bridegroom comes, our hearts are on the treasures above and not of this earth nor our loved ones of this life that we are willing to leave it by His grace & by His help.

 

[loveme1]

Great, Loveme1, this is what I expect from my brothers and sisters: to show me where I am wrong. I will re-examine this subject very carefully. God bless you!

All the quoting seems to be a little a miss..

But likewise my dear.. that is why we all gather here to learn and Grow in Grace and Knowledge of our Lord.

Many will declare me a working for Pharisee type.. but the more I learn the more Grace abounds and GOD gives increase to know that Christ is our Victory and we are Truly under Grace at Liberty to Love GOD and each other without condemnation.. now without Grace and Truth I would not even know how to Love GOD and each other.. without the Holy Spirit Baptism I would be dead in my trespasses... all given as a Gift from GOD through Faith in His Son.


Now I will remind us all of the Lord’s Prayer which I believe is our Daily prayer for renewing our New Spirit.. all Glory to the Almighty GOD and our Lord and Saviour.