Grace alone or grace plus works?

[mailmandan]

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to confirm his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

James gives us the test for genuine faith: like the faith of Abraham, it is evidenced by works. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

Do preach that this means people who are hungry and are walking around without any clothes on? Or do you understand this to mean people with no covering,(in their sins) and without the Word of God that Jesus said we live by?

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to not love one another as He commanded us (1 John 3:23). Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6) and not through empty words of merely wishing someone well, without actually giving them the things which are needed for the body.

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Which is an empty profession of faith and not genuine faith. Genuine faith is evidenced by works and is alive, not dead.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Yes, we show our faith by our works. A phrase that James could have coined is "the absence of evidence could be construed as evidence of absence." Once again, James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation. This is where the rubber meets the road.

How do we know what Abrahams Faith was? By his works, yes? Did he believe in an image of God created by man, or does His Faith shown by his works, show his Faith of the God of the bible?

We see in Genesis 15:5 that God brought Abraham outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be." In verse 6, we see that Abraham believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness. In Romans 4:2-3, we read - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was counted to him as righteousness.”

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan and not in God, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

"Faith without works" is dead does not mean that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works or that works are that actual SOURCE of life in faith, as works-salvationists teach.

But we all have works every day. So then do we all have faith? I would say yes, everyone has Faith in something. But Abraham showed by his works who his Faith is in. Was it the God of the Bible or doctrines and traditions of man?

A good tree (believers) produces good fruit but a bad tree (unbelievers) produces bad fruit. Not all have authentic faith in Christ, even though they have faith in "something." Faith is only as good as the OBJECT that we place it in. For Abraham, it was in the God of the Bible. For works-salvationists, it's in doctrines and traditions of man.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? It is God that wraps faith and obedience in a package and call it "Faith".

False. God calls faith faith and works works. It's works-salvationists who wrap faith and obedience/works up in a package (without making a distinction between faith and works) and simply stamp "faith" on the package. Your true colors are really showing now.

 

[mailmandan]

The entire Faith Chapter of Hebrew mentions several people as the perfect example of those who had Faith.

In Hebrews 11, notice in all of these occurrences that is was by or "out of" faith, not faith is in essence, these acts of obedience/works. Their faith was genuine and it was shown by their actions (works) so all of these works accomplished in Hebrews 11 were done "by" or "out of" faith, but those works are not the essence of faith, but are the evidence (fruit) of faith. That is absolutely critical to understand! We are saved through faith at it's origin and not at some time later, based on the merit of works. Faith is the root of salvation and works which follow are the fruit.

Which one of these Created their own High Days and rejected Gods?

Which one of these transgressed the Commandments of God by their own man made doctrines and traditions?

Which one of these created an image of God in the likeness of man?

The answer is not one single example of Faith given for our admonition rejected God's Instruction and created their own

I believe you were right to leave the Catholic church because they transgress the Commandments of God by their own traditions.

So who are you accusing of being guilty of the above today, other than the Roman Catholic church?

But how can just just moving to another church that does the same exact things, be considered true repentance? Can I just move from one religion that creates their won righteousness to another religion that creates their own righteousness?

It's sounds obvious to me that you create your own righteousness by teaching that salvation is by grace plus law, faith plus works. You profess to teach salvation by grace through faith, but then redefine this in a way that is contrary to New Testament doctrine. That's not repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21).

Gen. 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

They both believe Dan, we all have Faith in something? Even the devil has Faith in something.

Yet Abraham actually "believed in the Lord," and not merely "mental assent" that "there is one God." Big difference.

What was the difference between Abraham's Faith and the devil's Faith?

Abraham's faith is belief, trust, reliance in God. The faith of devils is merely "mental assent" belief.

Abraham showed his faith by following God's instructions. He didn't say to God, "Well I'm OK with this part of your instruction, but I don't like this other part, so I'm still going to call you Lord, Lord, but I'm not going to follow the parts of your instruction I don't like. I'll just create my own instructions for those I don't agree with.

According to the Word of God, that became flesh in the person of Jesus, it doesn't Work that way?

Your arguments seem to always circle back around to you implying that you are following God's instructions, yet the rest of us who are not mixed up in your movement are not.

I disagree with the premise of your statement. Paul is explaining to the Gentiles about the Jews and the "law of Works" VS. the Law of Faith.

That's false and is the same error that Roman Catholics make. They teach that we are saved by "these" works (works of faith) and just not "those" works (works of the law). It's the same game in salvation as every other false movement of Christendom plays.

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

By the law of faith does not mean saved by works produced out of faith. Your argument is just works-salvationists smoke and mirrors.

Abraham was obedient to God before receiving Law of Circumcision, nor did he ever receive the Levitical Priesthood ceremonial "works of the Law" for justification of sins. Both are considered "the law of Works" by Paul.

Was Abraham saved through faith or works? See Romans 4:2-3.

The Law of Faith is different.

The Law of Faith is not about being saved through a code of laws attached to faith.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Abraham obeyed God's instruction.

Yet was Abraham accounted as righteous before based on his faith or his obedience to instructions/works? Again, see Romans 4:2-3. Actually, keep reading through verse 6.

Gen. 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

What did Abraham believe that caused God to account his faith as righteousness? See verse 5.

Gen. 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Absolute perfection or mature and complete?

10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Abraham was obeying God and trusting God, and showed Faith in God for 25 years before any "Law of Works" were given to him.Rom. 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Long before an "law of works" were given to him)

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised(for 25 years) that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Excellent verses which prove my point.

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Walk in the steps of that faith does not mean salvation by works. All genuine believers follow in the footsteps of the faith that Abraham had.

So therefore we know:

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law,(Circumcision and Levitical Priesthood "Law of Works") but through the righteousness of faith. (Believing in God enough to follow His Instructions.)

Abraham was BEFORE the Law of Moses and his faith (not his works) was accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3). Believing in God is faith. Following His instructions "afterwards" is works and is the evidence, but not the essence of faith.

So what was the difference between the folks in Matt. 7 and Abraham?

The folks in Matthew 7 did not do the will of God by believing in Christ in order to receive eternal life (Matthew 7:21; John 6:40) so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin and not produced out of faith and without faith it's impossible to please God. They trusted in their works for salvation and Jesus NEVER knew them. Abraham truly believed in the Lord and his works were produced out of genuine faith in God. That's quite a difference!

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Is it the will of the Father that we reject God's Laws and create our own Dan? Is it the will of the Father that we create images of God after the likeness of men? Can you show me where it is the will of God that we create our own High Days and righteousness, while rejecting Gods? Did Abraham do any of these things?

Abraham did not and neither do genuine believers that you falsely accuse. Is it the will of God that we teach salvation is by grace plus law, faith plus works and pervert the Gospel? NO. Is it the will of God that we mix the Old Covenant with the New Covenant and teach that salvation is a subtle mixture of law and grace, all the while professing to teach salvation by grace through faith, but then redefine this in a way that is contrary to New Testament doctrine? NO.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

How can you say these people didn't have faith in Jesus based on what is said here? They "Come in His name, they claim He is truly the Christ. According to you and your definition of "Faith" they should be all set.

In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, I'll never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, wow! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" *Such is the mindset of someone who believes that salvation is by works.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They did not truly BELIEVE IN HIM (even though they had mental assent belief) and they were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin.

In Matthew 12:27, we see that the sons of the Pharisees cast out demons and they were not born of God. Satan may grant the power to one of his agents to cast out demons from another of his agents in order to gain attention and loyalty from an audience for his own evil agenda. False teachers and false prophets have long demonstrated supernatural power granted by Satan, including the power to control the demonic realm. The enemy uses this deception to win an audience for his claims.

I personally used to know a woman who is a Mormon that allegedly cast a demon out of a teenage boy. She claims the demon came out of the boy, began to attack her, then stopped and with an eerie voice said, "oohhh, you're a child a God" then left. She then boasted about how that demon knew better than to mess with her! Of course, she was not a believer, yet the demon convinced her that she was through this experience. This made her all the more convinced that she was perfectly fine right where she was, lost in her Mormon faith which perverts the Gospel of Christ.

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There it is Dan. There is the difference between people who say they have Faith, but reject the instructions of God.

The key word there, "SAY" they have faith. These many people in Matthew 7:22 did not have authentic faith in Christ, which left them in their sins and in the eyes of God, workers of iniquity and apart from the blood of Christ and God's imputed righteousness which comes through faith (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) we would all be seen in the eyes of God as workers of iniquity.

This is the difference between those on the Broad Path who call Jesus Lord, and Abraham. When Abraham was told to leave his fathers religion, he didn't argue with God, he didn't consult with the preachers of the land, He obeyed.

There are many people on the broad path who call Jesus Lord (lip service) as we saw in Matthew 7:22-23, yet Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved. Obedience is the fruit of authentic faith in Christ. Not obedience to some false religion or cult, but obedience to Christ.

Not the Law of Works, but the Law of Faith.

Not grace plus law, not faith plus works, not a subtle mixture of law and grace (which is still the law of works) but the law of faith. *You are not fooling me one bit.

 

[DJ2]

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to confirm his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

James gives us the test for genuine faith: like the faith of Abraham, it is evidenced by works. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to not love one another as He commanded us (1 John 3:23). Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6) and not through empty words of merely wishing someone well, without actually giving them the things which are needed for the body.

[/B]Which is an empty profession of faith and not genuine faith. Genuine faith is evidenced by works and is alive, not dead. [/B]Yes, we show our faith by our works. A phrase that James could have coined is "the absence of evidence could be construed as evidence of absence." Once again, James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation. This is where the rubber meets the road. We see in Genesis 15:5 that God brought Abraham outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be." In verse 6, we see that Abraham believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness. In Romans 4:2-3, we read - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was counted to him as righteousness.”

[/B]In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan and not in God, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
"[/B]Faith without works" is dead does not mean that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works or that works are that actual SOURCE of life in faith, as works-salvationists teach. A good tree (believers) produces good fruit but a bad tree (unbelievers) produces bad fruit. Not all have authentic faith in Christ, even though they have faith in "something." Faith is only as good as the OBJECT that we place it in. For Abraham, it was in the God of the Bible. For works-salvationists, it's in doctrines and traditions of man.

False. God calls faith faith and works works. It's works-salvationists who wrap faith and obedience/works up in a package (without making a distinction between faith and works) and simply stamp "faith" on the package. Your true colors are really showing now.

James 2 is not speaking of professions of faith. The examples of Abraham and Rehab were not just examples of their faith but acts of obedience that granted them favor with God. All the faith in the world would not have mattered if Abraham had not been willing to sacrifice Issac. It was the work that God was looking for. Faith alone would not have saved Rehab, it was the work of putting the red cord on the door that saved her and her family.

James' choice of these two examples are quite the opposite of what you are attempting to explain as the meaning of these verses. Faith alone played no part in the examples of James 2, the examples are of works as the point of reward.

Rehab's "work" was not an expression of her protection from the Israelite army but the act that gave her protection from the Israelite army. It was not faith in the promise of protection that saved her but the proper response to the promise that saved her.

Faith is only as good as the OBJECT that we place it in

Correct. But faith in the proper object is still dead without works.

It is your lack of understanding this simple truth that is showing.

 

[mailmandan]

James 2 is not speaking of professions of faith.

*SAYS-CLAIMS* (key word) to have faith BUT has no works. Again, this is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith. So if someone *SAYS-CLAIMS* they have faith, but lacks resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have a dead faith and not a living faith. Simple!

The examples of Abraham and Rehab were not just examples of their faith but acts of obedience that granted them favor with God.

Neither Abraham nor Rahab were saved by their works, yet their faith was evidenced by their works.

All the faith in the world would not have mattered if Abraham had not been willing to sacrifice Issac.

If Abraham was not willing to sacrifice Isaac, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but that was not the case. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. *Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith in Genesis 15:6 not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

It was the work that God was looking for. Faith alone would not have saved Rehab, it was the work of putting the red cord on the door that saved her and her family.

God does not need to look for a work in order to understand the condition of one's heart. God infallibly knows the condition of our heart, but man does not. Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs. Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet genuine faith is evidenced by good works. A work does not save a person and their entire family eternally, but it can save their physical lives, as in this case.

James' choice of these two examples are quite the opposite of what you are attempting to explain as the meaning of these verses. Faith alone played no part in the examples of James 2, the examples are of works as the point of reward.

You are confusing faith (rightly understood) in Christ "alone" for salvation (Ephesians 2:5-9) with an empty profession of faith that remains "alone" -- barren of works (James 2:14). Big difference!

*The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith "in Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

Rehab's "work" was not an expression of her protection from the Israelite army but the act that gave her protection from the Israelite army. It was not faith in the promise of protection that saved her but the proper response to the promise that saved her.

Her work may have saved her from physical death, but it did not merit eternal life. Big difference! Now read (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) until it sinks in.

Correct. But faith in the proper object is still dead without works.

False. At the very moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ alone for salvation, our faith is made alive in Christ and we are saved (Ephesians 2:5-8) then afterwards, authentic faith results in evidential works. Works are not the source of life in faith, rather, life in faith is the source of works. You put the cart before the horse and teach salvation by works.

It is your lack of understanding this simple truth that is showing.

That statement is the epitome of irony.

 

[Studyman]

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to confirm his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

James gives us the test for genuine faith: like the faith of Abraham, it is evidenced by works. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to not love one another as He commanded us (1 John 3:23). Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6) and not through empty words of merely wishing someone well, without actually giving them the things which are needed for the body.

[/B]Which is an empty profession of faith and not genuine faith. Genuine faith is evidenced by works and is alive, not dead. [/B]Yes, we show our faith by our works. A phrase that James could have coined is "the absence of evidence could be construed as evidence of absence." Once again, James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation. This is where the rubber meets the road. We see in Genesis 15:5 that God brought Abraham outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be." In verse 6, we see that Abraham believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness. In Romans 4:2-3, we read - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was counted to him as righteousness.”

[/B]In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan and not in God, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
"[/B]Faith without works" is dead does not mean that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works or that works are that actual SOURCE of life in faith, as works-salvationists teach. A good tree (believers) produces good fruit but a bad tree (unbelievers) produces bad fruit. Not all have authentic faith in Christ, even though they have faith in "something." Faith is only as good as the OBJECT that we place it in. For Abraham, it was in the God of the Bible. For works-salvationists, it's in doctrines and traditions of man.

False. God calls faith faith and works works. It's works-salvationists who wrap faith and obedience/works up in a package (without making a distinction between faith and works) and simply stamp "faith" on the package. Your true colors are really showing now.

There is little benefit arguing with someone who only uses scripture to defend church traditions.


8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

This same God commanded that were love our neighbor as our self, that we don't steal, that we remember God's Sabbath day to keep it Holy, and that we don't create images of God in the like of anything on earth. If you keep only those Commandments that suits you, and reject the rest, you are guilty of sin and in danger of the judgment.


In this case, James isn't talking about "Brothers" (Those who strive to do the will of God, as Jesus defined) who are stealing other peoples stuff, or creating images God in the likeness of some long haired pretty boy. or are breaking God's Sabbath.

He is rebuking those in God's church of:

1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

Mercy, Faith, and Judgment are also Laws of God given to man through Moses.

8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

You can not pick and choose which of God's Commandments suits you and you follow, and which ones do not and you reject.

The mainstream preachers of Christ's time did this and he rejected them.

That is like having Faith without works.

It is against God's Old Testament Commandments to see a "brother" (One who does the will of God) in need and not help him in you can.

Just like it is a sin to not commit adultery, but to kill.

that is the context of this letter. Abraham didn't do any of these things.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Why did He offer his son in the alter? Was it because the Pope or Benny Hinn, or Joel Olstein told him to. No Dan, it was because GOD TOLD HIM to.


22 Seest thou how faith (belief) wrought with his works,(obedience to God) and by(those) works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

And how do we know Abraham believed in this God and not some other one? Because Abraham showed his Faith, by his obedient works to the God of the Bible.

what if Abraham had refused to go up the mountain. what if he said, "I'll sacrifice my son, but I want to do it in my back yard."

Would that be counted unto him as righteousness? Of course you won't answer because this isn't about studying to understand God's Word for you, it is about defending man made church traditions.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Why, because she believed the mainstream preaching of her time? No, because she believed in the God of Abraham.

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead,(Who Peter says God gives to those who obey Him) so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Studyman]

=mailmandan;3371272]In Hebrews 11, notice in all of these occurrences that is was by or "out of" faith, not faith is in essence, these acts of obedience/works. Their faith was genuine and it was shown by their actions (works) so all of these works accomplished in Hebrews 11 were done "by" or "out of" faith, but those works are not the essence of faith, but are the evidence (fruit) of faith. That is absolutely critical to understand! We are saved through faith at it's origin and not at some time later, based on the merit of works. Faith is the root of salvation and works which follow are the fruit.

So then, I will know what your faith is in by your works, Yes?

I agree that the origin of Faith is important. But what about all the talk about deceiving our self. And being deceived.

Every single mainstream believer on the planet claims to have Faith. You can't possibly say, with a straight face, that those "believers" in Matt. 7, didn't believe they had faith.

And the truth is they did, just like you and everyone else. Everyone has Faith in something, but it is our works that define what our Faith is in.

If it is in the God of the Bible, then we will follow the instructions of the God of the Bible, like Abraham. If it is in Church traditions and man made doctrines, like the mainstream preachers of Christ's time, then their works will show that faith as well. But church traditions and doctrines can't save us, only God can. So if my faith is in man, or an image of God we created in our mind, then that is dead faith.

So who are you accusing of being guilty of the above today, other than the Roman Catholic church?

I am accusing no one. I am showing scriptures that "Many" who come in Christ's name, ignore in order to promote mainstream traditions.

One such mainstream tradition that "transgresses the Commandments of God" in direct rebellion to Jesus, is the creation of images of God in the likeness of some long haired man.

I have shown you the scriptures from your own Bible that teach against such wicked behavior. If this offends you I am not sorry. If you partake of such images then as a brother I implore you to study about such "works" as I have and hope you can be "convinced in your own mind". Paul taught that the mainstream preachers of his time did the same thing and it didn't end well for them. (Rom. 1)

It's sounds obvious to me that you create your own righteousness by teaching that salvation is by grace plus law, faith plus works. You profess to teach salvation by grace through faith, but then redefine this in a way that is contrary to New Testament doctrine. That's not repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21).

It is not me that must erase from my Bible volumes of scriptures that define what God's definition of Faith and Grace are. You call God's definition of faith and Grace Psychobabble.

I didn't create the doctrines of "Repent, Turn to God, and bring Works worthy of repentance", God did. I didn't create God's Commandments He created for man, I didn't create Passover and Unleavened Bread, I didn't create anything.

I believe God is perfect, just and Righteous, and I believe all His Words are Righteousness. I don't need to create my own High Days, my own image of God, my own Righteous works. God has done all this for me. He creates my doctrine, He creates my Traditions.

So here I am, and I see some of my brothers spiritually naked and destitute of daily food. It would be simpler and easier for me to just say: Well, good luck with those man made doctrines and traditions. See you later. But what profit to us is that? I don't help my brothers and I have brought sin on my self as James points out.

Now you can reject the help, you can refuse to accept the truth about the man made images and feast days and doctrines of mainstream preaching. as the preachers of Christ's time did. That is on you if you want to deny this Elephant in the room. But because I have Faith in Jesus, and believe His Word's both before He became a man, and afterward, I must tell you these things.

Yet Abraham actually "believed in the Lord," and not merely "mental assent" that "there is one God." Big difference.
Abraham's faith is belief, trust, reliance in God. The faith of devils is merely "mental assent" belief.

I see only one difference between the two. One trusts God enough to follow His Instructions, and the Devil didn't.

Your arguments seem to always circle back around to you implying that you are following God's instructions, yet the rest of us who are not mixed up in your movement are not.

I have no movement. If you can prove my understanding of the scriptures is wrong with God's Word then I implore you to do so. I have been wrong many times and have been corrected by children, by my wife, by brothers on this very forum. If you see me sin, it is your duty to warn me.

But don't use the judgment of the Pope or Jimmy Swaggart or whoever the popular religious franchise owner of the day is. Use God's Judgment. but how can you use God's Judgment if you don't believe in God's Judgment? The Mainstream preachers accused Jesus, Peter and Paul of sin many times. But they used their own man made judgments so they meant nothing. That is why Paul says in Colossians 2 "Let no man therefore judge you".

That's false and is the same error that Roman Catholics make. They teach that we are saved by "these" works (works of faith) and just not "those" works (works of the law). It's the same game in salvation as every other false movement of Christendom plays.

As I said, if you can show me in God's Word where my understanding is wrong, please show me. But if the scriptures I use condemn your religious doctrines of men, then you need to look in the mirror.

Mainstream Christianity, including Catholics, are the largest purveyor of disobedience to God on the planet. They preach against God's Sabbaths, Holy Days, and replaced them with High Days created by a famous Sun Worshipper. "Many" as Jesus prophesied, are fine with this. But neither Abraham, nor any other example of a "true believer" did anything even resembling these things. This is why I am trying to help you. Not to promote my religion, but to prompt you to "Come out of her" that you share not in her sins."

By the law of faith does not mean saved by works produced out of faith. Your argument is just works-salvationists smoke and mirrors. Was Abraham saved through faith or works? See Romans 4:2-3.

You refuse to acknowledge that Paul was fighting against a mainstream preaching that taught unless one brings a sacrifice to the Levite and have him perform the Levitical Priesthood ceremonial, sacrificial, "Works of the Law" for remission of sins, they can not be saved. Until you do, you will forever be blind to what Paul is teaching.

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith
without the deeds of the law.

You preach, as does the Catholic Church, that this means all of God's Laws, or at least the ones that contradict your religious traditions.

But Paul is pointing out that there is "a law of works" and a "Law of Faith". Circumcision and the Levitical Priesthood are "Laws of Works", Loving God with all your heart and all your soul, Keeping God's Sanctified, Set apart, Holy to Him, Holy to us, That He created for man, Don't steal, don't covet, , and if there be any other Commandment. These are the "Law of Faith" Abraham was blessed for following. Abraham didn't have the Law of Works called Circumcision until 24 years after God instructed Him and he obeyed. Abraham never had the "Law of Works" called the Levitical Priesthood.

Rom. 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

He was not justified by "the Law of Works", as Paul teaches. But he did follow God's instruction, which is a "Law" and he was blessed just like God taught us through Moses.

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

The same preaching front and back.

The Law of Faith is not about being saved through a code of laws attached to faith.

That is the Catholic way. But the scriptures teach Abraham was obedient and God blessed him BECAUSE of this. Not obedient to the "Law of Works" that were "ADDED" later, but to God's Instructions as it is written.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Like Abraham did.

Yet was Abraham accounted as righteous before based on his faith or his obedience to instructions/works? Again, see Romans 4:2-3. Actually, keep reading through verse 6.

Once again, you are ignorant of what the "Law of Works" are, and you refuse to accept the Bibles teaching regarding them, so you can't see that Paul is telling the Gentiles that Abraham was considered Righteous because He obeyed God, BEFORE there were any "Law of Works".

What did Abraham believe that caused God to account his faith as righteousness? See verse 5.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Where is it written that Abraham didn't obey God's Instruction? you make it sound like He just stood there, did nothing, and God picked him for no reason, but killed thousands in Sodom for what?

Since you adhere to the catholic teachers doctrines, as most churches do, you were never taught what the "law of works were".

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only,(Jews only) or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, (Law of Works)or in uncircumcision? (Law of Faith) Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

Abraham was obedient to God for 24 years before the "law of Works" called circumcision even existed. And He was justified by Jesus without ever having been cleansed by the "Law of Works called the Levitical Priesthood.

How can you ignore these Biblical Facts that Paul is speaking too.

Absolute perfection or mature and complete?

Excellent verses which prove my point.

Walk in the steps of that faith does not mean salvation by works. All genuine believers follow in the footsteps of the faith that Abraham had.

Absolutely, all true believers follow the footsteps of the Faith of Abraham. As Jesus said:

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

As I asked before, did Abraham create his own laws, his own righteousness? Or did he simply follow the instructions of his God?

Abraham was BEFORE the Law of Moses and his faith (not his works) was accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3). Believing in God is faith. Following His instructions "afterwards" is works and is the evidence, but not the essence of faith.

Another catholic doctrine you adhere to. The only Law Abraham didn't have that Moses taught was the Levitical Priesthood.

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

And what did he believe in?

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The Catholic church and her daughters teach, among many things, that Abraham didn't have the same Laws as God gave to Abraham's Children. And this is true regarding the Levitical Priesthood. Abraham didn't have this "Law of Works". So Abraham was not justified by "Works or Deeds of this Law" because Levi wasn't even born yet. But he had the righteous, good, perfect, spiritual, just "Laws of Faith" that Jesus and EVERY example of faith in the Bible walked in.

And the Bible doesn't teach any differently.

 

[gb9]

So then, I will know what your faith is in by your works, Yes?

I agree that the origin of Faith is important. But what about all the talk about deceiving our self. And being deceived.

Every single mainstream believer on the planet claims to have Faith. You can't possibly say, with a straight face, that those "believers" in Matt. 7, didn't believe they had faith.

And the truth is they did, just like you and everyone else. Everyone has Faith in something, but it is our works that define what our Faith is in.

If it is in the God of the Bible, then we will follow the instructions of the God of the Bible, like Abraham. If it is in Church traditions and man made doctrines, like the mainstream preachers of Christ's time, then their works will show that faith as well. But church traditions and doctrines can't save us, only God can. So if my faith is in man, or an image of God we created in our mind, then that is dead faith.




I am accusing no one. I am showing scriptures that "Many" who come in Christ's name, ignore in order to promote mainstream traditions.

One such mainstream tradition that "transgresses the Commandments of God" in direct rebellion to Jesus, is the creation of images of God in the likeness of some long haired man.

I have shown you the scriptures from your own Bible that teach against such wicked behavior. If this offends you I am not sorry. If you partake of such images then as a brother I implore you to study about such "works" as I have and hope you can be "convinced in your own mind". Paul taught that the mainstream preachers of his time did the same thing and it didn't end well for them. (Rom. 1)




It is not me that must erase from my Bible volumes of scriptures that define what God's definition of Faith and Grace are. You call God's definition of faith and Grace Psychobabble.

I didn't create the doctrines of "Repent, Turn to God, and bring Works worthy of repentance", God did. I didn't create God's Commandments He created for man, I didn't create Passover and Unleavened Bread, I didn't create anything.

I believe God is perfect, just and Righteous, and I believe all His Words are Righteousness. I don't need to create my own High Days, my own image of God, my own Righteous works. God has done all this for me. He creates my doctrine, He creates my Traditions.

So here I am, and I see some of my brothers spiritually naked and destitute of daily food. It would be simpler and easier for me to just say: Well, good luck with those man made doctrines and traditions. See you later. But what profit to us is that? I don't help my brothers and I have brought sin on my self as James points out.

Now you can reject the help, you can refuse to accept the truth about the man made images and feast days and doctrines of mainstream preaching. as the preachers of Christ's time did. That is on you if you want to deny this Elephant in the room. But because I have Faith in Jesus, and believe His Word's both before He became a man, and afterward, I must tell you these things.




I see only one difference between the two. One trusts God enough to follow His Instructions, and the Devil didn't.




I have no movement. If you can prove my understanding of the scriptures is wrong with God's Word then I implore you to do so. I have been wrong many times and have been corrected by children, by my wife, by brothers on this very forum. If you see me sin, it is your duty to warn me.

But don't use the judgment of the Pope or Jimmy Swaggart or whoever the popular religious franchise owner of the day is. Use God's Judgment. but how can you use God's Judgment if you don't believe in God's Judgment? The Mainstream preachers accused Jesus, Peter and Paul of sin many times. But they used their own man made judgments so they meant nothing. That is why Paul says in Colossians 2 "Let no man therefore judge you".



As I said, if you can show me in God's Word where my understanding is wrong, please show me. But if the scriptures I use condemn your religious doctrines of men, then you need to look in the mirror.

Mainstream Christianity, including Catholics, are the largest purveyor of disobedience to God on the planet. They preach against God's Sabbaths, Holy Days, and replaced them with High Days created by a famous Sun Worshipper. "Many" as Jesus prophesied, are fine with this. But neither Abraham, nor any other example of a "true believer" did anything even resembling these things. This is why I am trying to help you. Not to promote my religion, but to prompt you to "Come out of her" that you share not in her sins."



You refuse to acknowledge that Paul was fighting against a mainstream preaching that taught unless one brings a sacrifice to the Levite and have him perform the Levitical Priesthood ceremonial, sacrificial, "Works of the Law" for remission of sins, they can not be saved. Until you do, you will forever be blind to what Paul is teaching.

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith
without the deeds of the law.

You preach, as does the Catholic Church, that this means all of God's Laws, or at least the ones that contradict your religious traditions.

But Paul is pointing out that there is "a law of works" and a "Law of Faith". Circumcision and the Levitical Priesthood are "Laws of Works", Loving God with all your heart and all your soul, Keeping God's Sanctified, Set apart, Holy to Him, Holy to us, That He created for man, Don't steal, don't covet, , and if there be any other Commandment. These are the "Law of Faith" Abraham was blessed for following. Abraham didn't have the Law of Works called Circumcision until 24 years after God instructed Him and he obeyed. Abraham never had the "Law of Works" called the Levitical Priesthood.

Rom. 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

He was not justified by "the Law of Works", as Paul teaches. But he did follow God's instruction, which is a "Law" and he was blessed just like God taught us through Moses.

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

The same preaching front and back.



That is the Catholic way. But the scriptures teach Abraham was obedient and God blessed him BECAUSE of this. Not obedient to the "Law of Works" that were "ADDED" later, but to God's Instructions as it is written.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Like Abraham did.



Once again, you are ignorant of what the "Law of Works" are, and you refuse to accept the Bibles teaching regarding them, so you can't see that Paul is telling the Gentiles that Abraham was considered Righteous because He obeyed God, BEFORE there were any "Law of Works".



5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Where is it written that Abraham didn't obey God's Instruction? you make it sound like He just stood there, did nothing, and God picked him for no reason, but killed thousands in Sodom for what?

Since you adhere to the catholic teachers doctrines, as most churches do, you were never taught what the "law of works were".

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only,(Jews only) or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, (Law of Works)or in uncircumcision? (Law of Faith) Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

Abraham was obedient to God for 24 years before the "law of Works" called circumcision even existed. And He was justified by Jesus without ever having been cleansed by the "Law of Works called the Levitical Priesthood.

How can you ignore these Biblical Facts that Paul is speaking too.




Absolutely, all true believers follow the footsteps of the Faith of Abraham. As Jesus said:

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

As I asked before, did Abraham create his own laws, his own righteousness? Or did he simply follow the instructions of his God?



Another catholic doctrine you adhere to. The only Law Abraham didn't have that Moses taught was the Levitical Priesthood.

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

And what did he believe in?

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The Catholic church and her daughters teach, among many things, that Abraham didn't have the same Laws as God gave to Abraham's Children. And this is true regarding the Levitical Priesthood. Abraham didn't have this "Law of Works". So Abraham was not justified by "Works or Deeds of this Law" because Levi wasn't even born yet. But he had the righteous, good, perfect, spiritual, just "Laws of Faith" that Jesus and EVERY example of faith in the Bible walked in.

And the Bible doesn't teach any differently.

actually , in Galatians 3, v 17, Paul stated that the Law ( only one law, not half a dozen as you falsely claim ) did not come into existence until 430 years later. then in v 18 he states that the inheritance God promised Abraham is not based on keeping the law. then in v 19 he states that the law ( once again singular ) was ordained by Angles and delivered to Israel by a mediator ( Moses ) .

so there is proof you are wrong. by Scripture . just like you asked.

 

[Nehemiah6]

actually , in Galatians 3, v 17, Paul stated that the Law ( only one law, not half a dozen as you falsely claim ) did not come into existence until 430 years later. then in v 18 he states that the inheritance God promised Abraham is not based on keeping the law. then in v 19 he states that the law ( once again singular ) was ordained by Angles and delivered to Israel by a mediator ( Moses ).

When we see the term "the Law" it must be interpreted properly and in context. Here are all the different applications of this term:

The Law -- the ENTIRE Old Testament

The Law -- the entire Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy) including all 613 commandments.

The Law -- the Old Covenant as a Covenant

The Law -- just the Ten Commandments


So just because it is singular does not mean anything. Context is critical.

 

[gb9]

I have been told by one of you Hebrew roots/sda cult members that it is wrong to refer to the Law as the Torah. then I get chastised by another for insisting that proper context and chronological order should be used in the interpretation of Scripture. now I' m being told that context has to be used to divide up the law, which the N.T. does not do.

I have a suggestion for you all- empty your minds of all this, then start in Genesis 1, and read straight through all the way through Revelations. ya'll at as mixed up as a fruit salad.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I have a suggestion for you all- empty your minds of all this, then start in Genesis 1, and read straight through all the way through Revelations. ya'll at as mixed up as a fruit salad.

I have a suggestion also. Acquire Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (KJB) and go through every reference to "the Law". Then group those references into the various applications of "the Law", and discover for yourself how that term can be applied at different times to different things.

 

[Studyman]

=mailmandan;3371272]


T

he folks in Matthew 7 did not do the will of God by believing in Christ in order to receive eternal life (Matthew 7:21; John 6:40) so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin and not produced out of faith and without faith it's impossible to please God. They trusted in their works for salvation and Jesus NEVER knew them. Abraham truly believed in the Lord and his works were produced out of genuine faith in God. That's quite a difference!

So then the folks in Matt. 7 were just serving Jesus with their lips then.? Right? They didn't repent, turn to God, and bring works worthy of repentance.

You make my point.

How do you know the Spirit of God/Jesus is in you when you declare you are "saved", when you preach in Jesus name? When you give Jesus credit for all your works? When you build great missions and huge churches, all in Jesus name. Feed the hungry and have soup kitchens, get people off drugs, and on and on.

How do you know you are just another one of these "believers" Jesus is speaking about?

Jesus said we would know them by their fruits.

John gives a test that exposes whether we have the spirit of Christ, or the spirit of this world that disguises itself as Christ.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

What would have happened to those in Matt. 7 if they had checked themselves as this scripture instructs?

What was the problem with these guys?

You make a big speech about your definition of faith, but Jesus didn't say "Depart from me you who have no Faith? That is another example of you creating your own doctrine.

Jesus said "Depart from Me you who practice transgression of God's Commandments." Why didn't He say "FAITH", or even mention the word here?

Because as Abraham showed, those who have Faith in God/Jesus obey Him. Those who honor Him with their lips do not.

And as John and James said, to test the Spirit on me, just hold up God's Laws that Jesus obeyed, if we are striving to walk in them as Jesus did, then we are on the right "Path", but if we find that we are following the doctrines and traditions of men, like those in Matt. 7, then that is a problem.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Jesus is the Word made Flesh. All things were created by Him and for Him including His Instructions. Like He said:

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Abraham did not and neither do genuine believers that you falsely accuse. Is it the will of God that we teach salvation is by grace plus law, faith plus works and pervert the Gospel? NO. Is it the will of God that we mix the Old Covenant with the New Covenant and teach that salvation is a subtle mixture of law and grace, all the while professing to teach salvation by grace through faith, but then redefine this in a way that is contrary to New Testament doctrine? NO.

Can you show me in the Prophesy regarding the New Covenant where there is any mention of changing God's Laws? Or destroying God's Laws? You have no idea what you are even talking about Dan. You are simply regurgitating Catholic doctrine.

I challenge you to go where Jesus, before He became a man, tells us about the New Covenant and show me where He said He re-defined sin, or changed the requirement of the Commandment.

You can't because it isn't there. It is another in a long line of man made doctrines and Traditions the Jesus told me to "Take Heed" of.

The New Covenant deals with two things

#1. The administration of God's Laws.

No more do we go the Levitical Priests to hear God's Word as prescribed by the Levitical Priesthood "Law of Works". But God will write HIS Laws on our hearts Himself.

#2. The manner in which the cleansing of our sins is handled.

No more taking goats to the Levitical Priests for them to perform sacrificial "works of the Law" for remission of sins, Jesus will intervene directly and He will forgive our sins with His own Blood once and for all.

Your preaching that God did more than this is just that, your preaching. Just another in a long line of doctrines and Traditions man has created that Jesus warned about both in the Old Testament and in the New.

In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, I'll never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, wow! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" *Such is the mindset of someone who believes that salvation is by works.

Yet, the scripture isn't speaking about that at all. The scripture is teaching that we can sing happy birthday Jesus, and have crosses stamped on the Easter eggs, and can hold hands and pray out loud in the Denny's restaurant, but all of that is vain if we are Transgressing the Commandments of God. And this Theme starts with Eve and the serpent using parts of God's Word to deceive her into disobedience, and goes all the way to Paul who was accused of sin because He taught nothing more than what Jesus, as the God of the Old Testament taught.

Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles. (Same Light, same repentance, Same God, Same Works worthy of repentance.)

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They did not truly BELIEVE IN HIM (even though they had mental assent belief) and they were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin.

We only know they had a wrong foundation because they were Transgressing God's Commandments. Your "Mental assent" doctrine, where does that come from. Let me guess, not from God's Word.

In Matthew 12:27, we see that the sons of the Pharisees cast out demons and they were not born of God. Satan may grant the power to one of his agents to cast out demons from another of his agents in order to gain attention and loyalty from an audience for his own evil agenda. False teachers and false prophets have long demonstrated supernatural power granted by Satan, including the power to control the demonic realm. The enemy uses this deception to win an audience for his claims.

I agree, but Jesus did say we would know them by their "WORKS", and I believe in Him. So if a man is feeding poor people and getting people off drugs in Christ's Name, but "working iniquity" or living in Transgression of the Laws Jesus Walked in, I know it isn't the Spirit of Christ that works in him, but the spirit of this world.

how can that be wrong?

I personally used to know a woman who is a Mormon that allegedly cast a demon out of a teenage boy. She claims the demon came out of the boy, began to attack her, then stopped and with an eerie voice said, "oohhh, you're a child a God" then left. She then boasted about how that demon knew better than to mess with her! Of course, she was not a believer, yet the demon convinced her that she was through this experience. This made her all the more convinced that she was perfectly fine right where she was, lost in her Mormon faith which perverts the Gospel of Christ.

I know what you mean. I belonged to and was at a HUGE church once, filled with people who went to the front and "accepted Jesus" and the Preacher was praising God and everybody was chanting and waving their arms and singing. And the Preacher said they were all "Saved by the Blood of Jesus". No repentance, No turning to God, just walking to the front of the church. Two weeks later the cops came and arrested this preacher for molesting little boys in Sunday school. He preached the exact same thing as most all churches preach, they all had one thing in common, they taught that obedience to God was something that comes later. I knew several people personally from that church who were saved "by the Blood of Jesus". I wouldn't leave my daughter or my wife alone with any of them for one minute.

There is actually a Web Site you can go to now for help if you suspect something like this. "Stopbaptistpredators" is the name I think.

My point is all Mainstream preachers preach the same doctrine more or less. And all Mainstream preachers teach against the "walking in God's Commandments" that Jesus walked in. Oh, some don't come right out and say it. I hear it all the time.

"We aren't saying it's OK to sin"

But somehow, honoring God with obedience is taught against. I mean, look at our conversations. I'm not advocating any more or any less than what God expected from Abraham, Cain, Noah, Rehab etc.

But for some reason following God's Laws is "Un-Christian". or to be literal "Un-Christ like. I won't go near it.

I haven't set foot in another church since that one an set about in my own home to study and learn the scriptures. I partake of no organized religion of any kind. I don't read their sermons, or their doctrines. I learned by study, prayer and tears.

You don't have to consider my take on scriptures or my take on the many, many warnings in the Bible about preachers who come in Christ's name. But I must do my best to share what He has shown me. It is His Commandment.

The key word there, "SAY" they have faith. These many people in Matthew 7:22 did not have authentic faith in Christ, which left them in their sins and in the eyes of God, workers of iniquity and apart from the blood of Christ and God's imputed righteousness which comes through faith (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) we would all be seen in the eyes of God as workers of iniquity.

God said if we seek Him with all our heart He will reveal Himself to us. Jesus said;

"But Seek Ye FIRST the Kingdom of God (of the Bible) and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Only by studying the Old Testament can we know what God's Righteousness is. And do you preach that God will give me understanding if I study His Word but am fooling around with the neighbors wife? How about if I study His Word but rob a liquor store every night? What about if I study His Word but reject His Sabbath He made for man.

You judge His Laws to suit you. Neither Abraham nor Jesus nor any other example of Faith did this. That is why they understood God and you don't.

And no matter what you say, or what you believe, or what you hear, Transgressing God's Commandments by church tradition is NOT GOD'S Righteousness, nor is it His Will. It is simply another tradition of man.

There are many people on the broad path who call Jesus Lord (lip service) as we saw in Matthew 7:22-23, yet Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved. Obedience is the fruit of authentic faith in Christ. Not obedience to some false religion or cult, but obedience to Christ.

I agree 100%. But who is the Christ? Is He the image of the long haired pretty boy displayed in tens and thousands of churches and look upon by billions of people who "SAY" they have Faith in Jesus?

Or is He the Creator God of the Bible, who became man, to, in part, correct the false preachers who had been killing the Prophet's God sent them since Cain killed Abel?

Not grace plus law, not faith plus works, not a subtle mixture of law and grace (which is still the law of works) but the law of faith. *You are not fooling me one bit.

Yes, trying to "Fool you" into obeying the God of the Bible like Abraham. I should be ashamed of myself.

I have done my part, it's not up to me.

 

[Studyman]

actually , in Galatians 3, v 17, Paul stated that the Law ( only one law, not half a dozen as you falsely claim ) did not come into existence until 430 years later. then in v 18 he states that the inheritance God promised Abraham is not based on keeping the law. then in v 19 he states that the law ( once again singular ) was ordained by Angles and delivered to Israel by a mediator ( Moses ) .

so there is proof you are wrong. by Scripture . just like you asked.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham had God's Laws as it is written, He just didn't have the Levitical Priesthood, Levi wasn't even born yet. It was not "ADDED" until 430 years later.

Only a mainstream preacher would teach that God created man, didn't give Him and instructions, yet killed tens of thousands of people for sinning, then when He did give them instructions, He created Laws so hideous and burdensome that it was impossible for keep them, then Killed tens of thousands more who couldn't keep them, that became a man and rejected an entire religion because they were not keeping God's Commandments He created that were impossible for man to keep.

I welcome your comments, keep them coming.

 

[DJ2]

*SAYS-CLAIMS* (key word) to have faith BUT has no works. Again, this is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith. So if someone *SAYS-CLAIMS* they have faith, but lacks resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have a dead faith and not a living faith. Simple!

Neither Abraham nor Rahab were saved by their works, yet their faith was evidenced by their works.

If Abraham was not willing to sacrifice Isaac, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but that was not the case. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. *Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith in Genesis 15:6 not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

God does not need to look for a work in order to understand the condition of one's heart. God infallibly knows the condition of our heart, but man does not. Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs. Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet genuine faith is evidenced by good works. A work does not save a person and their entire family eternally, but it can save their physical lives, as in this case.

You are confusing faith (rightly understood) in Christ "alone" for salvation (Ephesians 2:5-9) with an empty profession of faith that remains "alone" -- barren of works (James 2:14). Big difference!

*The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith "in Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

Her work may have saved her from physical death, but it did not merit eternal life. Big difference! Now read (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) until it sinks in.

False. At the very moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ alone for salvation, our faith is made alive in Christ and we are saved (Ephesians 2:5-8) then afterwards, authentic faith results in evidential works. Works are not the source of life in faith, rather, life in faith is the source of works. You put the cart before the horse and teach salvation by works.

That statement is the epitome of irony.

*SAYS-CLAIMS* (key word)

Wrong *DOES NOT-HAS NOT* (key words) all believers will say-claim faith but it is those that "does" who will be rewarded.

Claims of faith alone = death
Proper works of faith = life

Abraham showed a lack of faith a number of times during his life but was still in God's favor. If Abraham would not have sacrificed Issac it would not have meant a lack of faith but a lack of fear of the Lord and the withholding of the reward.

But

Genesis 22:16 "...because you have done this..."
Genesis 22:18 "...because you have obeyed Me..."

you will be rewarded.

Her work may have saved her from physical death, but it did not merit eternal life.

James 2 is speaking of salvation, the examples follow the purpose of the author's intent. Rahab's example fits perfectly into his point.

You are confusing faith (rightly understood) in Christ "alone" for salvation

Neither you nor anyone else in the trust alone sects can redefine the meaning of believe or faith. Your "rightly understood" meaning has no Biblical basis and is something you have conveniently concocted to fit your narrative.



[h=1][/h]

 

[Studyman]

Wrong *DOES NOT-HAS NOT* (key words) all believers will say-claim faith but it is those that "does" who will be rewarded.

Claims of faith alone = death
Proper works of faith = life

Abraham showed a lack of faith a number of times during his life but was still in God's favor. If Abraham would not have sacrificed Issac it would not have meant a lack of faith but a lack of fear of the Lord and the withholding of the reward.

But

Genesis 22:16 "...because you have done this..."
Genesis 22:18 "...because you have obeyed Me..."

you will be rewarded.



James 2 is speaking of salvation, the examples follow the purpose of the author's intent. Rahab's example fits perfectly into his point.



Neither you nor anyone else in the trust alone sects can redefine the meaning of believe or faith. Your "rightly understood" meaning has no Biblical basis and is something you have conveniently concocted to fit your narrative.

Very Good DJ2,

You have a wonderful gift of getting your point across without writing a book. I must learn this skill :0

 

[BillG]

I just want to be like Jesus. Love God with all my heart and soul, love my neighbour, love my brother and love my enemies.

Just as Jesus asked us to.

I will sell that every day.

Just wanna be like Jesus.

Whenever my life gets out of kilter and I'm struggling and I pray about it.

God says to me, focus on Jesus.

 

[gb9]

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham had God's Laws as it is written, He just didn't have the Levitical Priesthood, Levi wasn't even born yet. It was not "ADDED" until 430 years later.

Only a mainstream preacher would teach that God created man, didn't give Him and instructions, yet killed tens of thousands of people for sinning, then when He did give them instructions, He created Laws so hideous and burdensome that it was impossible for keep them, then Killed tens of thousands more who couldn't keep them, that became a man and rejected an entire religion because they were not keeping God's Commandments He created that were impossible for man to keep.

I welcome your comments, keep them coming.

if you disagree with Paul, take it up with him. you were proved wrong. be a man and admit it. or keep lying about what God's Word says. we saved by grace , not by law keeping. anyone who says otherwise is a lair .

and also, when Paul listed the fruits of the Sprit, Sabbath was not one. study that studyman

 

[Studyman]

if you disagree with Paul, take it up with him. you were proved wrong. be a man and admit it. or keep lying about what God's Word says. we saved by grace , not by law keeping. anyone who says otherwise is a lair .

and also, when Paul listed the fruits of the Sprit, Sabbath was not one. study that studyman

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.


Actually I have taken it up with Paul.

21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.



The Mainstream Preachers of his time didn't like his teaching either.

 

[gb9]

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.


Actually I have taken it up with Paul.

21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.



The Mainstream Preachers of his time didn't like his teaching either.

as usual, when you get proven wrong in one place, you jump to another. the fruit of the Sprit is what a believer should act like.

this is why you isolate Scripture and attach your own meaning. your stuff quickly falls apart when context and chronological order are applied.

 

[mailmandan]

Wrong *DOES NOT-HAS NOT* (key words) all believers will say-claim faith but it is those that "does" who will be rewarded.

Wrong. *SAYS-CLAIMS* to have faith are the (key words) that you continue to ignore in James 2:14. James said can that faith "save" him, not reward him. Salvation is not a reward that is earned by works.

Claims of faith alone = death
Proper works of faith = life

Empty profession of faith/dead faith = death. Genuine faith = life (which is evidenced by proper works of faith). You have this backwards. You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse.

Abraham showed a lack of faith a number of times during his life but was still in God's favor. If Abraham would not have sacrificed Issac it would not have meant a lack of faith but a lack of fear of the Lord and the withholding of the reward.

Abraham had his weak moments, just as all Christians have theirs, yet ultimately, the faith of Abraham endured. Christians may show a lack of faith in certain situations during their Christian walk, yet that does not mean their faith in Christ for salvation does not remain intact. If Abraham would have refused to offer up Isaac on the altar, then what would that have demonstrated about his faith in Genesis 15:5-6? Obviously, it was not an empty faith.

But

Genesis 22:16 "...because you have done this..."
Genesis 22:18 "...because you have obeyed Me..."

you will be rewarded.

Genesis 22:16 -“By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— 17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” So what if Abraham did not obey His voice? Would the blessings still stand and would that have validated Abraham's faith from Genesis 15:5-6?

James 2 is speaking of salvation, the examples follow the purpose of the author's intent. Rahab's example fits perfectly into his point.

Salvation and authentic faith that is evidenced by works. Do you believe that Rahab was eternally saved based on the merits of her works or based on her faith? Being saved physically from death based on a work is different then being saved eternally based on works. Take Noah for example: *Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. Building the ark was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. Building the ark saved Noah and his family physically from drowning, but building the ark did not merit eternal life for Noah and his family.

Neither you nor anyone else in the trust alone sects can redefine the meaning of believe or faith. Your "rightly understood" meaning has no Biblical basis and is something you have conveniently concocted to fit your narrative.

Works-salvationist re-define believe/faith and infuse or conjoin it with works. Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Faith is not defined as a check list of works.

The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).

The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Saving belief/faith is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief/faith is a complete trust in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he said this below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".
Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, Works of mercy and charity, Obeying his commandments etc..

His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. Roman Catholics seem to think by not teaching that justification comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works, yet they still claim that we are saved by accomplishing this check list of works above and you are basically in the same boat with him when it comes to re-defining faith to include a check list of works.

 

[mailmandan]

There is little benefit arguing with someone who only uses scripture to defend church traditions.

This "church traditions" argument seems to be the sales pitch of your movement.

8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

This same God commanded that were love our neighbor as our self, that we don't steal, that we remember God's Sabbath day to keep it Holy, and that we don't create images of God in the like of anything on earth. If you keep only those Commandments that suits you, and reject the rest, you are guilty of sin and in danger of the judgment.

News flash. NOBODY has perfectly obeyed the whole law EXCEPT JESUS CHRIST. Guilty of keeping the "whole law" refers to far more than just the ten commandments, but the entire Law of Moses. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy under the Old Covenant (which James does not even mention) seems to be your stumbling block.

Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day - 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

So Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations (Exodus 16:23; 31:12-18; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21; 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13) was part of a covenant with Israel under the Old Covenant that is not binding on the Church/Christians under the New Covenant.

Even when Sabbatarians set out to keep the Sabbath day, are they truly "keeping the Sabbath?" To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament would involve compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced. If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). These were commanded by God to Israel. If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person keep a certain law when he keeps only part of it?

If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people. Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh day Adventist church? The Government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.

You can not pick and choose which of God's Commandments suits you and you follow, and which ones do not and you reject.

The moral precepts of 9 of the 10 commandments are repeated under the New Covenant, yet the command to keep the Sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the New Covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 5:12
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

The mainstream preachers of Christ's time did this and he rejected them.

You mean the mainstream Pharisees of Christ's time? Pharisees were the most influential of the religious sects of Jesus' day. They were strict legalists (sound familiar?) They stood for the rigid observance of the letter and forms of the law, and also for thelr traditions and He rejected them.

That is like having Faith without works.

More like works without faith -- bad fruit from a bad tree.

It is against God's Old Testament Commandments to see a "brother" (One who does the will of God) in need and not help him in you can.

Just like it is a sin to not commit adultery, but to kill.

that is the context of this letter. Abraham didn't do any of these things.

It is a sin to not love our neighbor as ourself, yet Abraham was not without sin and neither are you (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23) so quit seeking for justification by the law. News flash. "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant — not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills...the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone...the ministry that condemns" (2 Corinthians 3:6-9).

The law on our heart and mind is the love of the Spirit, not the law of the letter. This is why Paul tells us that the new covenant is a covenant of the Spirit, and not of the letter.