Grace alone or grace plus works?

[mailmandan]

Yes, trying to "Fool you" into obeying the God of the Bible like Abraham. I should be ashamed of myself.

I have done my part, it's not up to me.

Teaching that salvation is by grace plus law, faith plus works is not obeying God and you should be ashamed of yourself. You have done your part in perverting the Gospel (Galatians 1:6-9).

Works-salvationists, including Roman Catholics, Mormons, SDA's etc.. play the same game in salvation as every other false movement of Christendom. They profess to teach salvation by grace through faith, but they redefine this in a way that is contrary to New Testament doctrine through their subtle mixture of grace and law. I've done my part in sharing the truth with you, but the rest is not up to me.

 

[Studyman]

Teaching that salvation is by grace plus law, faith plus works is not obeying God and you should be ashamed of yourself. You have done your part in perverting the Gospel (Galatians 1:6-9).

Works-salvationists, including Roman Catholics, Mormons, SDA's etc.. play the same game in salvation as every other false movement of Christendom. They profess to teach salvation by grace through faith, but they redefine this in a way that is contrary to New Testament doctrine through their subtle mixture of grace and law. I've done my part in sharing the truth with you, but the rest is not up to me.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I(Jesus) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
That thou mayest love the LORD thy God,(Jesus) and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he(Jesus) is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,(Images of God created by man) and them which do iniquity; (Transgress God's Commandments by your own Traditions)

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Heb. 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Rom. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Duet. 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them, (Long haired pretty boy)

18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Matt. 23:4 For they(Mainstream preachers) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,


Matt. 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD,(Jesus) Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.




Matt. 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.




Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[DJ2]

Teaching that salvation is by grace plus law, faith plus works is not obeying God and you should be ashamed of yourself. You have done your part in perverting the Gospel (Galatians 1:6-9).

Works-salvationists, including Roman Catholics, Mormons, SDA's etc.. play the same game in salvation as every other false movement of Christendom. They profess to teach salvation by grace through faith, but they redefine this in a way that is contrary to New Testament doctrine through their subtle mixture of grace and law. I've done my part in sharing the truth with you, but the rest is not up to me.

You are clearly attempting to defend trust only regeneration theology. It is quite obvious James 2 is speaking against your church traditions, hence your repeated weak attempts to deflect what the chapter is proclaiming, "faith without works in dead". Your striving to redefine the words; "faith", "works" and "dead" are not working.

No matter what denomination, if it teaches a salvation granted simply by trusting in said salvation, is carnal in nature. It may help many sleep at night but in the end it is simply hopeful but carnal thinking. It takes little effort to see the eventual outcome of this mindset. Just tune in to the many televangelism ministries on television.

Just believe God will save you and you are saved. Just believe that you cannot lose your salvation and you never will. And so the story goes.

1st Peter 1:17 Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one's works, conduct yourselves with reverence during your the time of your sojourning.

I have done my part in sharing the truth with you, but the rest (work) is up to you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are clearly attempting to defend trust only regeneration theology. It is quite obvious James 2 is speaking against your church traditions, hence your repeated weak attempts to deflect what the chapter is proclaiming, "faith without works in dead". Your striving to redefine the words; "faith", "works" and "dead" are not working.

No matter what denomination, if it teaches a salvation granted simply by trusting in said salvation, is carnal in nature. It may help many sleep at night but in the end it is simply hopeful but carnal thinking. It takes little effort to see the eventual outcome of this mindset. Just tune in to the many televangelism ministries on television.

Just believe God will save you and you are saved. Just believe that you cannot lose your salvation and you never will. And so the story goes.

1st Peter 1:17 Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one's works, conduct yourselves with reverence during your the time of your sojourning.

I have done my part in sharing the truth with you, but the rest (work) is up to you.

Smh.

It is obvious you are clearly attempting to justify your works based gospel.

How can you attack trust? When you TRUST someone, you do as they say, or at the very least, you try to emulate them, Because you have faiht in them

You do not say (claim) you trust someone, then never attempt to emulate them or ignore all they say (have no works) in doing so,. All you have done is exactly what James was saying, Claims you have no faith at all (it is dead)

 

[DJ2]

Smh.

It is obvious you are clearly attempting to justify your works based gospel.

How can you attack trust? When you TRUST someone, you do as they say, or at the very least, you try to emulate them, Because you have faiht in them

You do not say (claim) you trust someone, then never attempt to emulate them or ignore all they say (have no works) in doing so,. All you have done is exactly what James was saying, Claims you have no faith at all (it is dead)

How can you attack trust?

I made no such point. My point was "trust only", you would have seen this if you would slow down and read carefully before replying. Four minutes from reading my post to posting your reply?

With the exception of universal reconciliation and predestination theology all theologies are dependent on some form of works.
Trusting, repentance, verbal confession, faith, baptism, believing etc are all works.

I trust that the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is the God of the Bible. I trust that the Bible is the Word of God. I trust that by obeying the words of the New Testament I will enjoy the rewards of obedience. This is trusting.

Thinking that the "act of trusting only" is the gospel is wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I made no such point. My point was "trust only",

There is no such thing. If you think their is, you evidently do not understand what trust is.

you would have seen this if you would slow down and read carefully before replying. Four minutes from reading my post to posting your reply?

No, I would not see it, Becauses I would assume you actually understood what the word trust means, and what it looks like. I guess I gave you to much credit?

With the exception of universal reconciliation and predestination theology all theologies are dependent on some form of works.
Trusting, repentance, verbal confession, faith, baptism, believing etc are all works.

Your teachers have failed you. You need to find new teachers.

Trust in someone else is not a work. But it WILL produce works.
Repent is not a work, You gain nothing from it.
Faith is not a work, (actually the Bible says it is the work of God) even faith in self is not a work, however, what you do with the faith shows what your true faith is in.
Baptism of the HS is the work of God in us, I do agree, howeve,r baptism of water is a work, But no one has ever been given eternal life or justified by baptism in water.

I trust that the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is the God of the Bible. I trust that the Bible is the Word of God. I trust that by obeying the words of the New Testament I will enjoy the rewards of obedience. This is trusting.

Thinking that the "act of trusting only" is the gospel is wrong.

Now if you only trusted in he work of Christ, and not your own obedience, You may actually see what the rest of us see. And stop trusting in your work

 

[star]

John 3:16 explains salvation clearly and succinctly. There are other scriptures as well.

Salvation comes only one way and that is through belief in Jesus Christ.

What is sealed by the Holy Spirit cannot be broken.

Works is what is produced as a Christian lives their life according to the HS using them as His instrument.

Accepting Christ a Lord and Savior is the only requirement for salvation.

 

[DJ2]

I made no such point. My point was "trust only",

There is no such thing. If you think their is, you evidently do not understand what trust is.



No, I would not see it, Becauses I would assume you actually understood what the word trust means, and what it looks like. I guess I gave you to much credit?



Your teachers have failed you. You need to find new teachers.

Trust in someone else is not a work. But it WILL produce works.
Repent is not a work, You gain nothing from it.
Faith is not a work, (actually the Bible says it is the work of God) even faith in self is not a work, however, what you do with the faith shows what your true faith is in.
Baptism of the HS is the work of God in us, I do agree, howeve,r baptism of water is a work, But no one has ever been given eternal life or justified by baptism in water.



Now if you only trusted in he work of Christ, and not your own obedience, You may actually see what the rest of us see. And stop trusting in your work

You are simply ignoring the meaning of the word "trust". Trust is a firm belief in the reliability of someone or thing, nothing more. You are like the rest of the trust only groups, attempting to redefine "trust" into some kind of metaphysical conviction that must be understood before salvation is granted.

Accept our version of trust or perish.

 

[Studyman]

I made no such point. My point was "trust only", You are simply ignoring the meaning of the word "trust". Trust is a firm belief in the reliability of someone or thing, nothing more. You are like the rest of the trust only groups, attempting to redefine "trust" into some kind of metaphysical conviction that must be understood before salvation is granted.

Accept our version of trust or perish.

Thank You DJ.

According to the “Many” who come in Christ’s name, Abraham was a legalist, so was Caleb and Jesus. They can’t see that obedience is a sign of trust. They preach that obedience is a “work of a do gooder who is trying to kiss up to God”. Cain thought the exact same thing.

You are right. Stick to your guns.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I made no such point. My point was "trust only", You are simply ignoring the meaning of the word "trust". Trust is a firm belief in the reliability of someone or thing, nothing more. You are like the rest of the trust only groups, attempting to redefine "trust" into some kind of metaphysical conviction that must be understood before salvation is granted.

Accept our version of trust or perish.

Your the one trying to redefine trust my friend. Biblical faith is an assurance in someone who is trustworthy.

You do not CLAIM you have an assurance or trust in someone and do NOTHING they say. Those who do that are nothing but decievers. Who’s laim they trust someone yet they have no trust or faiht in them at all.

Biblical faith works.

Mental agreement or mere belief (even demons believe) is not biblical faith, or trust. It is just an agreement, in other words. Just because I believe Jesus lived, died and even rose again, does not mean I TRUST him or his gospel at all.

You do not have to accept my version of trust/ But if you want to WATER DOWN the biblical interpretation of faith/trust, Then you have major issues.

Trust works. You will not find a person who actually trusts in Christ never work, if they never work, their faith was dead.

But they were never SAVED by those works, those works were A RESULT of the FAITH which ALREADY SAVED THEM

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thank You DJ.

According to the “Many” who come in Christ’s name, Abraham was a legalist, so was Caleb and Jesus. They can’t see that obedience is a sign of trust. They preach that obedience is a “work of a do gooder who is trying to kiss up to God”. Cain thought the exact same thing.

You are right. Stick to your guns.

Abraham was a legalist?..lol Wow man, Like DJ, whoever you are listening to has led you astray. No one thinks abraham was a legalist. That has to be one of the funniest things I have heard in along time. Thanks for the laugh


He was FOUND RIGHTEOUS because he had TRUE SAVING FAITH, Not because he works, He worked BECAUSE he had true saving faith.

Out of THIS FAITH can his many works, But even he struggled mightily with lack of faith and sin.

 

[DJ2]

Your the one trying to redefine trust my friend. Biblical faith is an assurance in someone who is trustworthy.

You do not CLAIM you have an assurance or trust in someone and do NOTHING they say. Those who do that are nothing but decievers. Who’s laim they trust someone yet they have no trust or faiht in them at all.

Biblical faith works.

Mental agreement or mere belief (even demons believe) is not biblical faith, or trust. It is just an agreement, in other words. Just because I believe Jesus lived, died and even rose again, does not mean I TRUST him or his gospel at all.

You do not have to accept my version of trust/ But if you want to WATER DOWN the biblical interpretation of faith/trust, Then you have major issues.

Trust works. You will not find a person who actually trusts in Christ never work, if they never work, their faith was dead.

But they were never SAVED by those works, those works were A RESULT of the FAITH which ALREADY SAVED THEM

Biblical faith is an assurance in someone who is trustworthy.

Agreed. By definition faith is an assurance in someone or something.

You do not CLAIM you have an assurance or trust in someone and do NOTHING they say

You are quite wrong, there were a number of people who trusted in God but failed to act properly. Their faith/trust did not manifest itself into godly works.

Adam & Eve believed but disobeyed.
King Saul believed but ignored Samuel.
Solomon believed but sought after foreign wives.
David believed but shed innocent blood.
Cain believed but hated his brother.
Elijah believed but ran away.
Aaron believed but feared the crowds.
Peter believed but denied Christ.
Noah believed but got drunk.
Abraham believed but lied.
Sarah believed but mocked.
Jacob believed but cheated.

Some did the work of repentance and others did not. Regardless, they all believed and trusted in God in one form or the other. Who are you to declare their trust/faith was not enough to meet God's standards?

You have so morphed this notion of trust only regeneration into something that its very acceptance has become a work. And you are too far gone to see this.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Agreed. By definition faith is an assurance in someone or something.

You are quite wrong, there were a number of people who trusted in God but failed to act properly. Their faith/trust did not manifest itself into godly works.

Adam & Eve believed but disobeyed.
King Saul believed but ignored Samuel.
Solomon believed but sought after foreign wives.
David believed but shed innocent blood.
Cain believed but hated his brother.
Elijah believed but ran away.
Aaron believed but feared the crowds.
Peter believed but denied Christ.
Noah believed but got drunk.
Abraham believed but lied.
Sarah believed but mocked.
Jacob believed but cheated.

Some did the work of repentance and others did not. Regardless, they all believed and trusted in God in one form or the other. Who are you to declare their trust/faith was not enough to meet God's standards?

You have so morphed this notion of trust only regeneration into something that its very acceptance has become a work. And you are too far gone to see this.

Wow. Talk about trying their best to ignore the facts. Most if not all these people had a great mighty works. Which proved their faith was real. What part of “Zero” works do you not get? You claim James supports you, yet you use people who showed many works as you’re support?

No one is perfect. Faith does not guarantee you will be perfect. James argument is that those who CLAIM to have faith but have NO works, his faith is dead. Can that LIFELESS faith save them?

About the only one who MAY fit james interpretation of faith minus works in your list would maybe be Cain. As we are not told of any works he did.

The rest had ample PROOF their faith was real.

 

[mailmandan]

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Repentance basically means a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind. Where salvation is in view, repentance actually precedes saving faith in Christ and is not a totally separate act from faith. It is actually the same coin with two sides. Repentance is on one side, what you change your mind about and faith in Christ is on the positive side, the new direction of this change of mind. *Repentance and faith are two sides of the same experience of receiving Christ.

In the context of Luke 13:3, Jesus challenged the people's notion that they were morally superior to those who suffered in such catastrophes. He called all to repent or perish. For some people though, prior to coming to the end result of repentance in receiving salvation (faith in Christ), they must change their minds about other specific things in order to get there. Repentance, metanoia, focuses on changing one's mind about his previous concept of God (as in Acts 17:30) and disbelief in God or false beliefs (polytheism and idolatry) about God (see 1 Thessalonians 1:9). On the other hand, this change of mind, focuses on the new direction that change about God must ultimately take, namely, trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Certain people misunderstand the term "repentance" to simply mean "completely stop sinning." That is not the Biblical definition of repentance. In the Bible, the word "repent" means to "change your mind." The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." This is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8), not the essence of repentance (change of mind).

I have heard certain people say, "If you want to be saved, repent of your sins, turn from your sins." If turning from your sins means to stop sinning, then people can only be saved if they stop sinning. And in that case, it is unlikely that anyone will be saved, since we don't know anyone who has ever "completely stopped sinning." (1 John 1:8-10)

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I(Jesus) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
That thou mayest love the LORD thy God,(Jesus) and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he(Jesus) is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Who is Deuteronomy 30:19 addressed to? ISRAEL. You need to stop mixing the Old and New Covenants.

Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,(Images of God created by man) and them which do iniquity; (Transgress God's Commandments by your own Traditions)

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Descriptive of unbelievers (Matthew 7:22-23; Luke 13:27). You seem to be under the delusion that you have lived a sinless, perfect life, having perfectly obeyed all of God's Commandments 100% of the time and will qualify for heaven under those terms, but the rest of us, who are not seeking salvation by works and are not a part of your self righteous works system will not.

Who are the righteous?

Romans 3:22 - even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. *We are justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 3:7 - Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. Believers practice righteousness BECAUSE they are righteous and not in order to become righteous. You seem to have this backwards.

Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Do you believe that you are perfect, in an absolute sense? Sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time, exactly like God the Father? As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - ​​​​​​​Be Perfect (teleioi). The word comes from telo, end, goal, limit. Here it is the goal set before us, the absolute standard of our Heavenly Father. The word is used also for relative perfection as of adults compared with children.

So absolute perfection, sinless, without fault or defect for us will not become a reality until we are present with the Lord and Jesus cannot compromise His standard, but that is the goal to strive for. Yet teleioi is also used to refer to the maturity of an adult, which is the end or aim to which the child points. Thus it denotes those who have attained the full development of innate powers, in contrast to those who are still in the undeveloped state (children).

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

What is the Greek word for "keep?" What about "abide?" How do you define these terms and do you teach sinless perfection? You are quoting the same verses that sinless perfectionists quote in an effort to prove God demands sinless perfection and they are sinless and perfect.

Heb. 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Rom. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Now you are on the right track here.

Duet. 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them, (Long haired pretty boy)

18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

Back to the Old Covenant. Are you are Jew under the Law?

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 Formany shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Apparently, you did not take heed and have been deceived by your movement.

Matt. 23:4 For they(Mainstream preachers) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

In context, Jesus is talking about the scribes and Pharisees (vs. 2) not mainstream preachers of today.

Matt. 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

You have not heeded these words either.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD,(Jesus) Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

You seem to be an expert at mixing the Old and New Covenants.

Matt. 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Few there be that find it because few have chosen to place their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ alone for salvation, and instead are trusting in WORKS for salvation.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Obviously, you must believe this means perfectly obey the 10 commandments, but is that really the case? NO. - Revelation 12:17 and 14:12 do not teach we must keep the 10 commandments in addition to the gospel

What is the Greek word for "keep?" Not sinless, perfection.

​​​​​​​Strong's Concordance
téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Short Definition: I keep, guard, observe
Definition: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
HELPS Word-studies

5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard(watch), keep intact.

 

[mailmandan]

You are clearly attempting to defend trust only regeneration theology. It is quite obvious James 2 is speaking against your church traditions, hence your repeated weak attempts to deflect what the chapter is proclaiming, "faith without works in dead". Your striving to redefine the words; "faith", "works" and "dead" are not working.

We are to trust only in Jesus for salvation and not in false religions or works. I have no church traditions and have repeatedly quoted the Word of God. I already explained to you numerous times what James means by "faith without works" is dead and he does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works or that works are the source of life in faith, as you and other works-salvationists teach. Your striving to re-define faith and teach salvation by works is not working. Please go back and meditate on posts #735, 741, 742, 744, 759 and allow the Holy Spirit to convict your heart and for the truth to finally sink in.

No matter what denomination, if it teaches a salvation granted simply by trusting in said salvation, is carnal in nature. It may help many sleep at night but in the end it is simply hopeful but carnal thinking. It takes little effort to see the eventual outcome of this mindset. Just tune in to the many televangelism ministries on television.

1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who BELIEVE. Salvation by works is carnal thinking.

Just believe God will save you and you are saved. Just believe that you cannot lose your salvation and you never will. And so the story goes.

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31). You refuse to trust in Jesus Christ alone to save you, so you turn to supplements, namely, "water and works."

1st Peter 1:17 Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one's works, conduct yourselves with reverence during your the time of your sojourning.

Our works will be judged by God to determine rewards and loss of rewards, but not salvation or loss of salvation (1 Corinthians 3:11-15).

I have done my part in sharing the truth with you, but the rest (work) is up to you.

You mean you have done your part in perverting the Gospel by teaching salvation by works. I have certainly done my part in sharing the truth with you and if accommodating your biased church doctrine is the only thing you are interested in, then you will not accept the truth no matter how many times that I explain it to you.

 

[mailmandan]

I made no such point. My point was "trust only", You are simply ignoring the meaning of the word "trust". Trust is a firm belief in the reliability of someone or thing, nothing more. You are like the rest of the trust only groups, attempting to redefine "trust" into some kind of metaphysical conviction that must be understood before salvation is granted.

Accept our version of trust or perish.

Either we are trusting 100% in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost. Plain and simple.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Either we are trusting 100% in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost. Plain and simple.

Amen, If we are not trusting in christ, What is left? All we have left is faith in self. “Not of works. LEST ANYONE CAN BOAST!”

The flesh needs to boast. It needs to puff itself up. Thats why it is so HARD to lay aside the flesh and trust COMPLETELY in Christ. It is against human nature, it is against the flesh.

 

[mailmandan]

Amen, If we are not trusting in christ, What is left? All we have left is faith in self. “Not of works. LEST ANYONE CAN BOAST!”

The flesh needs to boast. It needs to puff itself up. Thats why it is so HARD to lay aside the flesh and trust COMPLETELY in Christ. It is against human nature, it is against the flesh.

Amen! That salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that HUMAN PRIDE will not allow works-salvationists to receive Christ through faith. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen! That salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that HUMAN PRIDE will not allow works-salvationists to receive Christ through faith. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith.

Amen, The flesh is strong, it wants to take credit. It has to make up for his own wrongs. So it has to call salvation a reward by our obedience, and not a gift we can never earn.

 

[Studyman]

=mailmandan;3373433]

The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Repentance basically means a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind. Where salvation is in view, repentance actually precedes saving faith in Christ and is not a totally separate act from faith. It is actually the same coin with two sides. Repentance is on one side, what you change your mind about and faith in Christ is on the positive side, the new direction of this change of mind. *Repentance and faith are two sides of the same experience of receiving Christ.

In the context of Luke 13:3, Jesus challenged the people's notion that they were morally superior to those who suffered in such catastrophes. He called all to repent or perish. For some people though, prior to coming to the end result of repentance in receiving salvation (faith in Christ), they must change their minds about other specific things in order to get there. Repentance, metanoia, focuses on changing one's mind about his previous concept of God (as in Acts 17:30) and disbelief in God or false beliefs (polytheism and idolatry) about God (see 1 Thessalonians 1:9). On the other hand, this change of mind, focuses on the new direction that change about God must ultimately take, namely, trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Certain people misunderstand the term "repentance" to simply mean "completely stop sinning." That is not the Biblical definition of repentance. In the Bible, the word "repent" means to "change your mind." The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." This is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8), not the essence of repentance (change of mind).

I have heard certain people say, "If you want to be saved, repent of your sins, turn from your sins." If turning from your sins means to stop sinning, then people can only be saved if they stop sinning. And in that case, it is unlikely that anyone will be saved, since we don't know anyone who has ever "completely stopped sinning." (1 John 1:8-10)

There is a big difference between having rebellion and wickedness (Sin) in us, as 1 John speaks to.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

And sinning against God.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


Every human has sin in them. That is why Jesus said "Don't call Me good".

Paul also knew:

Rom. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Of course Jesus and Paul taught this, it's in the Gospel of Christ.

Jer. 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Before repentance we "walked" in the flesh, or we walked in our natural, carnal self that is wicked and an enemy of God.

Eph. 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

So before we repented we followed our wicked flesh.

You said repentance means a "change of mind" and the Bible agrees.(as do I)

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Rom. 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Rom. 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.(Which is death)


So Dan, we all have sin(rebellion, dishonor) in us, and we have all followed it in times past. But now Jesus calls for every man to repent and "turn to God", which means turn away from the sin that is in us, and turn to the "good" "just" "holy" "perfect" and "Righteous" ways of God as did Abraham and every other righteous example in the bible.

So now our flesh, our mind, no longer directs us. But the Spiritual Word of God is what we are to live by now. The flesh is dead and buried with Christ. Now we "serve in the newness of the Spirit" (second change to choose life) and not in the "oldness of the letter", (you sin, therefore you die)

Who is Deuteronomy 30:19 addressed to? ISRAEL. You need to stop mixing the Old and New Covenants.

The New Covenant does not destroy Deuteronomy or any other "Word" of Jesus before He became a man. This is a carnal doctrine that must be taught in order for men to justify their traditions that transgress God's Instructions and Commandments.

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I (Jesus/God, not the Levite Priests) will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I(Jesus/God) will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (No more animal blood as instructed by Moses)

These are the two things the New Covenant changed.

#1. The manner in which God's Laws were administered. No more Levite Priests to go to. to hear God's Commandments, He will write them in our hearts. And you can not say you don't know God's Commandments because He has done as He promised.

#2. The manner in which sins are forgiven. No more Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the law" for remission of sins. Jesus will provide "Himself a lamb for the sacrifice" once and for all.

But there is zero mention of Him changing God's Laws, altering them in any way. In fact, the New Covenant had nothing to do with the definition of God's Commandments, or their intent, or with the elimination of God's Word.

This lie that the Old Covenant is the Old Testament and the New Covenant is the New Testament is a perfect example of Catholic tradition which has been adopted by all her daughters. It is a convenient way to silence scriptures which expose their teaching as man made and not from God. Jesus did not do this.

The sad part is by rejecting Jesus' Word here men miss what His Salvation is all about? You and I have God's Laws written in our hearts. We also have "another Law" warring against our mind. (Rom. 7) WE now have the choice to make.

These are the two choices Jesus gave all mankind in Duet 30 that you reject.. Eve also knew God's Commandment, and she was also given "another law" in her flesh. This "other law" has parts of God's Word, but only those parts that can be used to deceive. She, Like Jesus said in Duet. 30, had the same choice as do we all. She chose death, but Abraham chose Life.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (Jesus) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.


"Many" who come in Christ's name, think they are more righteous than the mainstream preachers who did the exact same things in His time. But as Jesus said:

"5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

Descriptive of unbelievers (Matthew 7:22-23; Luke 13:27). You seem to be under the delusion that you have lived a sinless, perfect life, having perfectly obeyed all of God's Commandments 100% of the time and will qualify for heaven under those terms, but the rest of us, who are not seeking salvation by works and are not a part of your self righteous works system will not.

I am simply choosing to follow the Bibles preaching, not some religious franchise.

Jesus was qualified to pay for your and my hatred and rebellion towards God because He followed God's instructions perfectly. Surely you don't deny this. He has promised to write these instructions, the same ones Jesus Walked in, on our hearts. Which He has done. You can't say you don't know God's Commandments.

So now I am to choose which "laws" to follow. The instructions He has written on my heart from God, or the instructions of a religious franchise He warns over and over about, that uses parts God's Word as it did with Eve, to deceive me into disobeying God.

Who are the righteous?

Romans 3:22 - even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. *We are justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

I agree with Paul on all his teaching. The mainstream preachers of his time were preaching that one could not be saved without the "Law of Works". Circumcision and the Levitical Priesthood ceremonial "Works of the Law" for remission of sins are these "laws". Paul is explaining that Abraham was blessed "without the Law of works". He followed God's instructions for 24 years without Circumcision, and was never justified by the Levitical Priesthood which was not "ADDED" to God's commandments until 430 years after God/Jesus gave him the promise. Levi wasn't even born until after Abraham died.

So Abraham wasn't made righteous by the "law of works" but by the Law of Faith. He believed in God. How do we know? Because he did as God instructed. And it was accounted unto him as righteousness.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 3:7 - Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. Believers practice righteousness BECAUSE they are righteous and not in order to become righteous. You seem to have this backwards.

Jesus never created His own high days.
Jesus never created an image of God in the likeness of man.
Jesus never rejected His Fathers Word because it didn't support His man made tradition.
Jesus didn't create a different Sabbath, or reject His Own Holy Days.
Jesus didn't say "That's in the Old Testament, we don't have to listen to that anymore."

But "Many" defend a religion that has done all these things, in Christ's name. And they call it "righteousness". But this is their righteousness, not God's. I see no difference between the mainstream preachers who did this in Christ's time, and the mainstream preachers who do the same things today.


I could go on and on. You say "Believers" practice righteousness BECAUSE they are righteous. But the Bible says don't let man deceive me. If a man is doing righteousness, he is righteous.

So what of a religion, that comes in Christ's Name, that preaches that Jesus is truly the Christ, the Son of God, yet walks in traditions and doctrines of man that transgress the very Commandments Jesus walked in?

Do you preach they are righteous if they walk in their own customs and reject those given by Jesus before He became a man?

Do you believe that you are perfect, in an absolute sense? Sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time, exactly like God the Father? As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - ​​​​​​​Be Perfect (teleioi). The word comes from telo, end, goal, limit. Here it is the goal set before us, the absolute standard of our Heavenly Father. The word is used also for relative perfection as of adults compared with children.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

The mainstream preachers of his time taught that perfection, cleansing, justification, was through the "Law of Works" like Circumcision and ceremonial sacrificial "Works and deeds of the Law" for remission of sins. But Paul taught what Jesus taught.

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

The mainstream preachers of His time rejected these Word's as does most all mainstream preachers of today. But for me, I believe on this Jesus, and have faith that if He says be ye perfect, then He knows I can choose Him. And it really doesn't matter what you or the Pope teaches.

Neither men, nor the Pope offered themselves for my sins, so I will be listening to the Jesus of the Bible and following His instructions. If that offends some men, that places them on the same Path with "many, many" others and is actually confirmation that I am on the right Path. Thank you Jesus for that.