Grace alone or grace plus works?
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E
If we are judged by our works, we are doomed for eternity. Because our works are as filthy rags. And not one work will make up for 1 sin.
Yes, We will be judged for our works, and recieve reward.. But we are not talking about rewards, we are talking about ho0w one is saved.
So can you tell me, Since I do not believe we WORK to MAINTAIN salvation, but I believe we WORK BECAUSE of salvation. Am I still fighting works?
Yes, We will be judged for our works, and recieve reward.. But we are not talking about rewards, we are talking about ho0w one is saved.
So can you tell me, Since I do not believe we WORK to MAINTAIN salvation, but I believe we WORK BECAUSE of salvation. Am I still fighting works?
=eternally-gratefull;3374935]
Yes, man's works, man's traditions, man's images of God created by them in the likeness of man, man's high days and "Feasts unto the Lord" These are all as a filthy rags, rebellion is as witchcraft, sin is "exceedingly sinful".
But God's Works, God's definition of Holy, God's righteousness which are His Commandments, God's Instructions are not a filthy rag. Man can trust God and His Ways, as did Abraham. We are not doomed by trusting in the God of the Bible.
You are not saved by your works, but by God's. We are judged with God's Judgment, not mans.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
It matters little whether a man relies on his own works before or after they claim belief in Jesus. The end result of walking in Him is obedience not rebellion.
Yes, man's works, man's traditions, man's images of God created by them in the likeness of man, man's high days and "Feasts unto the Lord" These are all as a filthy rags, rebellion is as witchcraft, sin is "exceedingly sinful".
But God's Works, God's definition of Holy, God's righteousness which are His Commandments, God's Instructions are not a filthy rag. Man can trust God and His Ways, as did Abraham. We are not doomed by trusting in the God of the Bible.
You are not saved by your works, but by God's. We are judged with God's Judgment, not mans.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
It matters little whether a man relies on his own works before or after they claim belief in Jesus. The end result of walking in Him is obedience not rebellion.
E
If used the right way, No they are not.
IOf used in the wrong ways (like Israel did) then yes, they are they good?
Thats the problem. Thye law can not tell you how to be righteous, it can just tell you how UNRIGHTEOUSNESS YOU ARE, and only then is it of any use.
Yep. So why then are you preaching law. The law is Gods judgment, for all who do not fulfill it.
Actually it matters quite a bit, A man depending on his own works has a lot harder time than a man who did not understand what a sinner he was.
Yes, the end result of salvation is walking in him. And learning to be like him (jesus the example) will lead us to obedience.
Originally Posted by valiant
so they were PREPARING THE WAY for the Christ, they were not proclaiming His good news
NO. God's good news of salvation through faith was proclaimed (Gen 15.6). Salvation has always been by faith. But the Good News of the Gospel awaited the New Testament.
The Messiah was foretold in the Old Testament, as men prepared the way, but 'as through a glass darkly'.
WE can see hints concerning Him, but they were not clear to the Old Testament readers. They walked in the light that they had, not in the light that we have.
I gave a thorough explanation of what the gospel IS and was careful to make a distinction between the content of the gospel of the kingdom to Israel prior to the cross and the gospel of grace, taught by the apostle Paul for this dispensation in post #97 below.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/161028-what-new-covenant-5.html#post3375635
The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).
To "believe" the gospel, as taught by the apostle Paul, is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel is not obey the 10 commandments or keep the sabbath day as the means of your salvation and the gospel is also not the entire word of God. Mormons have "added" the book of Mormon to the Bible and call it the "fullness" of the gospel, but such people are all teaching a "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/161028-what-new-covenant-5.html#post3375635
The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).
To "believe" the gospel, as taught by the apostle Paul, is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel is not obey the 10 commandments or keep the sabbath day as the means of your salvation and the gospel is also not the entire word of God. Mormons have "added" the book of Mormon to the Bible and call it the "fullness" of the gospel, but such people are all teaching a "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)
Col. 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
I'm not sure how rebellion, stubbornness and disobedience go with Honor, Love and Faith.
God's Laws can not give life, or give understanding. Only Jesus can give that.
John. 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
I find no indication that Jesus gives either Grace or truth to those who create their own laws and traditions that transgress God's Commandments.
There are no righteous examples of people doing this in the Bible.
So whether they turned to God and changed their mind of their own choice, or whether Jesus saved them and made them obey.
The end result every time is a "Faithful Servant", not a disobedient one.
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
I'm not sure how rebellion, stubbornness and disobedience go with Honor, Love and Faith.
God's Laws can not give life, or give understanding. Only Jesus can give that.
John. 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
I find no indication that Jesus gives either Grace or truth to those who create their own laws and traditions that transgress God's Commandments.
There are no righteous examples of people doing this in the Bible.
So whether they turned to God and changed their mind of their own choice, or whether Jesus saved them and made them obey.
The end result every time is a "Faithful Servant", not a disobedient one.
The concept of grace has been completely destroyed by the american Mcdonalds Drivethru Christianity.
Here is how you see grace:
A man is cheating on his wife, he repents, stops cheating and then goes to the wife pounding his chest and saying I earned forgiveness you must forgive me because I stopped. Im so great.
Here is how true grace works:
A man is cheating on his wife, he repents, stops cheating and then goes to his wife with a broken spirit in a state of sorrow and begs for mercy and forgiveness. The wife is not obligated to forgive, but freely decides to forgive.
Thats how true grace works.
No amount of works can remit your sins, nothing you can do to "earn" the removal of sins.
But the mcdonalds christianity has convinced you that you cancel grace out or that "you dont need Jesus" if you obey. Thats complete nonsense. No one can be forgiven without Jesus.
If you live perfect from this point on, it wouldnt matter because you still have sinned in the past, and nothing but the blood of Christ can remit those sins.
Here is how you see grace:
A man is cheating on his wife, he repents, stops cheating and then goes to the wife pounding his chest and saying I earned forgiveness you must forgive me because I stopped. Im so great.
Here is how true grace works:
A man is cheating on his wife, he repents, stops cheating and then goes to his wife with a broken spirit in a state of sorrow and begs for mercy and forgiveness. The wife is not obligated to forgive, but freely decides to forgive.
Thats how true grace works.
No amount of works can remit your sins, nothing you can do to "earn" the removal of sins.
But the mcdonalds christianity has convinced you that you cancel grace out or that "you dont need Jesus" if you obey. Thats complete nonsense. No one can be forgiven without Jesus.
If you live perfect from this point on, it wouldnt matter because you still have sinned in the past, and nothing but the blood of Christ can remit those sins.
E
Your forgot a few aspects.
1. The wife hung on a cross for her husbands sin (if your really talking about grace here, forgiveness is not just given, it must be paid for)
2. Forgiveness is not based on stopping sin first, The power to stop sin is forgiveness (grace)
How can I say this? Again using your example. The wife loved the husband first (through her forgiveness) and out of this, he is empower to love her back (we love because god loved us first) And in love of her, he is not even tempted to cheat anymore.
But it even goes further than this, I love how you all love to take these grave sins. To think the husband would NEVER sin against his wife anymore (in any way) is to not know reality. True grace and forgiveness forgives unconditionally. Your placing a CONDITION on grace, WHich means you are cancelling out Grace.
You just made IS92's point.
In your religion, true love doesn't mean you can't cheat on your wife. You think you can cheat on her and have her still believe you love her. It might work the first time, but the next time you cheat on her she will begin to wonder about the sincerity of your love, and the 3rd time your bags are packed sitting outside the front door.
I don't believe my love for my wife is so weak, so insincere, that I must lust after other women. If I fall and do it once, and she shows me grace, I will never do that again. That is what true Love is.
you might think you can tell her after getting caught cheating the 2nd and 3rd time, "Sorry honey, I'm only human" and all will be well. But it doesn't work that way. Our God is a jealous God.
I may track dirt in, or spill my dinner plate, as I walk in her love. But I would never cheat on her once she gave me another chance. And if I did, it just proves I love myself more than I love her.
John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
In your religion, true love doesn't mean you can't cheat on your wife. You think you can cheat on her and have her still believe you love her. It might work the first time, but the next time you cheat on her she will begin to wonder about the sincerity of your love, and the 3rd time your bags are packed sitting outside the front door.
I don't believe my love for my wife is so weak, so insincere, that I must lust after other women. If I fall and do it once, and she shows me grace, I will never do that again. That is what true Love is.
you might think you can tell her after getting caught cheating the 2nd and 3rd time, "Sorry honey, I'm only human" and all will be well. But it doesn't work that way. Our God is a jealous God.
I may track dirt in, or spill my dinner plate, as I walk in her love. But I would never cheat on her once she gave me another chance. And if I did, it just proves I love myself more than I love her.
John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.