Limited Atonement -- Calvinist Style (Spurgeon was Reformed.)

[Depleted]

Someone else brought up the personal decision piece, I brought in a biblical response.

So bizarre that the doctrine that a person can hear the Gospel message and choose to believe the Gospel message is so offensive.

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou SHALT be saved.” Acts 16:31

​

Just trying to save other people from a miserable Christian walk who may be reading this thread.

It is not about me as you seem to assume,

No worries I missed this was your thread, I won't be back.

You didn't miss this was my thread. You missed reading the very first post because you automatically assumed "I'm right. You're wrong."

And, it very much was all about you, since the only things you responded to were the other haters, because you needed to see which excuse you could use to join in the hate. And now called on it, you've chosen to leave to avoid even reading that first thread, because surely, somewhere people are arguing about Calvinism on here.

I really do get your game. I was just hoping, for once, to show something Calvinist and non-Calvinist can agree on.

I do not call you a non-Calvinist. I consider non-Calvinists Christian. Christians that either don't understand what Calvinists are talking about or Christians who disagree with what we believe, but still Christians. Because of that, I do not consider you a non-Calvinists, but because I don't consider you a Christian. Nor do I consider the other haters who like to ponce on such threads without even checking what they're really about as non-Calvinists. (Neh, Shrume, Iam, etc.)

But I do have brothers and sisters on this site who truly are non-Calvinists. Marc, Maxwell, Miri, and others are non-Calvinists bros and sis. Christians! They are still family, because we all have the Lord in common. Not the vile you others pass out in droves.

Fortunately, haters need the Lord, so I will keep pressing on in prayer for the Lord's mercy on you. Especially since you're so full of wrath already, and think God's can't be worse than that. He has a special place in hell for those who try to pull his people away from him. I truly pray you don't find out that "grace." No grace at all there.

 

[Locutus]

but because I don't consider you a Christian.

That's a bit heavy duty.

 

[shrume]

That's a bit heavy duty.

It seems a few of the hard core Calvinists on this forum have no trouble judging some as not saved.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I do not call you a non-Calvinist. I consider non-Calvinists Christian. Christians that either don't understand what Calvinists are talking about or Christians who disagree with what we believe, but still Christians. Because of that, I do not consider you a non-Calvinists, but because I don't consider you a Christian. Nor do I consider the other haters who like to ponce on such threads without even checking what they're really about as non-Calvinists. (Neh, Shrume, Iam, etc.)

Here is Depleted showing her true colors. A pathetic embittered person who has no clue about true Christianity.

 

[Issachar92]

Here is Depleted showing her true colors. A pathetic embittered person who has no clue about true Christianity.

We got into it first couple of days I was here, it was about smoking and how no one can ever do anything iirc, I said you can stop smoking or any other thing, but obviously with calvinism you can never win and God has to grant repentance. After all, its God's fault He just dont give out repentance enough, and its always a notgoodenough amount when its granted. Folks still mess up all the time. In this system its supposed to be about all glory to God but instead its all blame to God. Its the magnificent exchange. Anytime they come out with the "God will sanctify in His time" I ask WHEN? Because it seems to never happen.

I think its dangerous to teach people they cant repent and I think thats the reason alot of churches are in the condition they're in. Thats my main issue with calvinism and why I constantly write against it. If only they kept this teaching underwraps but they advertise it.
I heard Paul Washer dont even lead folks in prayer, he just tells them to go home and pray God grants them repentance. Couldnt believe what I heard. Wasted time ranting and raving against sin only to nullify the entire message in the end. Operation Neutralize Repentance accomplished.

All I can say shrume is dont take it too seriously, this is par for the course. I apologized and ignored to avoid future problems. Its the best for all.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

It seems a few of the hard core Calvinists on this forum have no trouble judging some as not saved.

that is what just screams 'red light' IMO

perhaps they have a scripture that states Calvin overrides the Holy Spirit? some of them certainly seem to think so

just a little pride and self-righteousness going on I suspect

 

[Issachar92]

just a little pride and self-righteousness going on I suspect

Well what can ya do, God predestined it.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Well what can ya do, God predestined it.

again we would come full circle back to God ordains sin etc

I was taught, basically, that God is in 'control' of everything but that would make Him responsible for the 'mishap' in the garden

the difference is in God knowing what will happen and making it happen. I mean, we can all blame God for our sin if we believe the logical end to Calvinsim

dunno why that seems to a stumbling block

you have to grasp the Bible as an entire document and not chop it up into what you think is a digestible morsel for those who cannot think for themselves

we are commanded to renew our minds ACCORDING to what the Bible says...you know? it doesn't say 'if you feel like it, believe some of this but not that'..therefore I conclude we do not have a choice if we are actually interested in God's representation of Himself

we KNOW not everyone will respond but that does not mean the offer of WHOSOEVER is nullified

anyway...on it goes......no need to be so dog ugly nasty over it though

nowhere does scripture state you are saved if you believe Calvin. it's ridiculous

 

[valiant]

We do not believe that Christ made any effectual atonement for those who are forever damned;

That is self-evidently true.

we dare not think that the blood of Christ was ever shed with the intention of saving those whom God foreknew never could be saved, and some of whom were even in Hell when Christ, according to some men’s account, died to save them.

That also is self-evidently true'.

Whatever we believe Scripture says it must fit in with these two statements.

 

[TruthTalk]

Pffft.

I always suspected you'd like Gill more than I do. The dude talked a lot about targums, and I suspect you could actually keep straight which targum is which. (I cannot.)

(BTW, I do know the plural for 'targum' isn't targums, but I forgot what it was, and am too lazy to look it up. lol)

Good Morning Depleted, I'm just an innocent bystander following along with "your 'groovie' thread"

Targum, (Aramaic: “Translation,” or “Interpretation”), any of several translations of the Hebrew Bible or portions of it into the Aramaic language. The word originally indicated a translation of the Old Testament in any language but later came to refer specifically to an Aramaic translation.

The earliest "Targums" date from the time after the Babylonian Exile

Word Origin: Targum
[tahr-goo m; Sephardic Hebrew tahr-goom; Ashkenazic Hebrew tahr-goo m] /ˈtɑr gʊm; Sephardic Hebrew tɑrˈgum; Ashkenazic Hebrew ˈtɑr gʊm/

noun, plural Targums, Hebrew, Targumim

[Sephardic Hebrew tahr-goo-meem; Ashkenazic Hebrew tahr-goo-mim] /Sephardic Hebrew tɑr guˈmim; Ashkenazic Hebrew tɑrˈgu mɪm/ (Show IPA)

1. a translation or paraphrase in Aramaic of a book or division of the Old Testament

 

[Issachar92]

Lets just end the limited atonement garbagetrash.

In all of their intellectual glory they forgot that this verse exists in the Bible:

(Using NASB just so that excuse is out the window)

Hebrews 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

This is IMPOSSIBLE if Jesus blood was never even shed for that guy to begin with. There is nothing to regard as unclean since the atonement was only limited to the elect.

There ya go, one verse and its game over. Dont even need to go through the hundreds of OF THE WHOLE WORLD verses since they are ignored and reinterpreted.

The 5 points are so easily refuted by anybody who can read, it goes to show you how education can blind you, common sense will always prevail over the cookie cutter scholars.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Let me just end the limited atonement garbagetrash.

In all of their intellectual glory they forgot that this verse exists in the Bible:

(Using NASB just so that excuse is out the window)

Hebrews 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

This is IMPOSSIBLE if Jesus blood was never even shed for that guy to begin with. There is nothing to regard as unclean since the atonement was only limited to the elect.

There ya go. The 5 points are so easily refuted by anybody who can read, it goes to show you how education can blind you, common sense will always prevail over the cookie cutter scholars.

I don't think you understand the boomerang theory behind Calvinism

no matter how many times you throw it out, it comes back ...and by the way?

this dovetails nicely with the 'if you leave Christianity, you were never a Christian to begin with' theory which people love to hold as precious and true for the comfort it gives


it's called no fault Christianity and removes any and all responsibility from the individual and if you keep on that track, at the end of it, there is a station where Calvinism and OSAS live in blissful harmony

don't mind me. I agree with you.

 

[Issachar92]

I don't think you understand the boomerang theory behind Calvinism

no matter how many times you throw it out, it comes back ...and by the way?

this dovetails nicely with the 'if you leave Christianity, you were never a Christian to begin with' theory which people love to hold as precious and true for the comfort it gives

don't mind me. I agree with you.

You are right. That verse also kind of debunks OSAS. Because you cannot be sanctified by the blood of Jesus if you never was a christian.

Usually they quote the verse from john's epistle thats speaking of the gnostic antichrists who denied Jesus came in the flesh and they went out from us, because they were not of us had they been of us they would of stayed with us.
They then take that one verse outta context and apply it to every verse thats speaking about apostasy, even if sanctification and tasting of the gifts and all that is mentioned. It dont matter to these guys.

Fact is you cant be apostate of something you never had. You cant quit playing football if you start first. Did you know that everyone in the early church agreed unanimously on this point as well?

 

[Iconoclast]

A useless post for your words are meaningless to me, in one ear and out the other.

yes ...i agree you have not been able to understand these truths because you do not have the ability to welcome them. Millions have embraced these very truths that seem strange to you...

you also said this;

Believing in reformed theology is a wacked out nut case mind set in my opinion, it's bunch of none sense from folks who struggle with the orginal Theology in so much they call it reformed, there is nothing that needs reforming

So the RC. church with a works gospel that does not save, did not need to be reformed???
I see you offer no scripture in your attack posts.....I think it is because you cannot really answer to those Cals who are on this site. Even the noncals think you are over the line.
Your posting reminds me of what Paul wrote here as a warning;
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You are right. That verse also kind of debunks OSAS. Because you cannot be sanctified by the blood of Jesus if you never was a christian.

Usually they quote the verse from john's epistle thats speaking of the gnostic antichrists who denied Jesus came in the flesh and they went out from us, because they were not of us had they been of us they would of stayed with us.
They then take that one verse outta context and apply it to every verse thats speaking about apostasy, even if sanctification and tasting of the gifts and all that is mentioned. It dont matter to these guys.

Fact is you cant be apostate of something you never had. You cant quit playing football if you start first. Did you know that everyone in the early church agreed unanimously on this point as well?

I don't think it is 'easy' to walk away and I do not believe scripture indicates it either

but I do in fact simply believe what is indicated...what we agree on here...and it seems pretty plain to me

there are so many warnings in the NT about holding fast, believe to the end etc etc, that you have to be wishful thinking, IMO, to see it any other way

but the Holy Spirit does not give up on us. we always have a choice.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Originally Posted by IamWhoIam

A useless post for your words are meaningless to me, in one ear and out the other.

 

[SovereignGrace]

yes ...i agree you have not been able to understand these truths because you do not have the ability to welcome them. Millions have embraced these very truths that seem strange to you...

you also said this;


So the RC. church with a works gospel that does not save, did not need to be reformed???
I see you offer no scripture in your attack posts.....I think it is because you cannot really answer to those Cals who are on this site. Even the noncals think you are over the line.
Your posting reminds me of what Paul wrote here as a warning;
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

FYI...that is Meggido, a previous member banned and back on here under another username. Same guy, different username, same heretic...and full of hate.

 

[valiant]

Lets just end the limited atonement garbagetrash.

In all of their intellectual glory they forgot that this verse exists in the Bible:

(Using NASB just so that excuse is out the window)

Hebrews 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

This is IMPOSSIBLE if Jesus blood was never even shed for that guy to begin with. There is nothing to regard as unclean since the atonement was only limited to the elect.

Except that 'the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified' is the blood of bulls and goats, NOT the blood of Jesus,

There ya go, one verse and its game over.

LOL try again!!

Dont even need to go through the hundreds of OF THE WHOLE WORLD verses since they are ignored and reinterpreted.

Hundreds???? 'The whole world' does not mean everyone in the world. It means men of all races.

The 5 points are so easily refuted by anybody who can read

Well YOU do it. You just make assumptions, and slay the straw man whom you have invented..

The 'brave' words of someone who is 25 LOL

 

[Nehemiah6]

Hundreds???? 'The whole world' does not mean everyone in the world. It means men of all races.

Why do you continue to promote this lie? Lies are of the devil.

Both Strong's Concordance and Thayer's lexicon clearly explain that "the world" means the inhabitants of the earth, and the whole tenor of Bible truth requires that interpretation also. If ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, then ALL need to be saved, and therefore Christ is the propitiation for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD (1 John 2:1,2).

Strong's Concordance (2889)

kosmos: order, the world​

Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Short Definition: the world, universe
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2889: κόσμος

κόσμος, κόσμου, ὁ;

3.the world, i. e. the universe

4.the circle of the earth, the earth

5.the inhabitants of the world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )):Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)

6. "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ"

 

[7seasrekeyed]

valiant;3379343Except that 'the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified' is the blood of bulls and goats, NOT the blood of Jesus,


please give us the scripture wherein we are told that animal blood washed away sin

the blood of the covenant spoken of here is the blood of Christ. but I understand you cannot accept it that way without giving up certain beliefs. again, let us have the verse wherein we are told that Jesus did not have to die because IF animal blood had actually made a person forgiven by its blood? then why did God send His Son?


LOL try again!!

nothing funny going on unless you think your own misunderstanding is funny



Hundreds???? 'The whole world' does not mean everyone in the world. It means men of all races.

umm...that is not even what is being said. he is clearly and plainly referring to the number of scriptures in the Bible and not people populating the planet that clearly indicate that God desires for all to be saved which means Calvin is just plain wrong

Well YOU do it. You just make assumptions, and slay the straw man whom you have invented..


no. he actually understands what is being said and you attempt to twist what he said (ie your comment on the word hundreds) and then mock him as though you are so far above everyone else, that humor is the default emotion one must entertain when replying to those who are not of your opinions

The 'brave' words of someone who is 25 LOL

huh. with that attitude, I guess you might have held Timothy in distain as well. It's actually the opposite. At the age of 83, one might hope to believe that an individual had the grace to answer without mocking and twisting what another says

I would tell you to grow up...but...well, you know.....