"God's will that none perish".. but "some will perish"?..

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QuickenedByHim said:
Something Ive been wondering.. If God is "NOT willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9), then why will some partake in the second death like Revelation 21:8 says??

If it's God's will that no man perish then why will some men perish? Spirit led thoughts and scripture references please.
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The key is in respect to the word "as many'.The will of those any that do not perish are of the all (as many)as the father draws (the elect) None of them do perish they come to repentance as he calls them . He will not cast out the elect.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.Joh 6:44

The all and every man in the above verse make up the same all ,should come to repentance in the (2 Peter 3:9) reference..
 
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

God is indeed willing but the hardness of men's hearts prevents many from repenting and receiving Christ. Pride or reliance upon self righteousness or just plain old love of sin is why many refuse to come thought Christ pleads with them from the cross. They know not what they do.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
QuickenedByHim said:
I completely agree, what I'm trying to say here thought is that if it is God's WILL that no men perish, then why will some men perish? <If it's not God's will!>
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Because God has put before men two conditions which have to be met in order to be saved, and not all will obey the Gospel.

Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21).
 
trofimus said:
For me, free will/free choice means that we are not forced to do something.

But we are making choices according to our inclinations.

Some inclination can get so strong (in drug addicted, in alcoholics, in too animalistic people), that they are actually forced to do what they do not want to do anymore. Are they robots, then?
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they are actually forced to do what they do not want to do
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I do not believe that for a moment. An additic may believe they are "forced" to do something but that "force" must be accepted/obeyed by the additic as the only option. An additic has other options but refuses them.
 
QuickenedByHim said:
Something Ive been wondering.. If God is "NOT willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9), then why will some partake in the second death like Revelation 21:8 says??

If it's God's will that no man perish then why will some men perish? Spirit led thoughts and scripture references please.
Click to expand...

Unless you are God you are not in a position to say whether or not some, if any have perished or will perished. Not only is it God's will that none shall perish it is also His desire. Only those that know Jesus and have confessed their sins and invite the Holy Spirit to live in their hearts shall live for eternity in the presence of God. Who is to really say with complete certainty that someone did not feel remorse for their past sinful life and have asked for forgiveness relying on the shed blood of Jesus paying the penalty for their sins?
 
DJ2 said:
I do not believe that for a moment. An additic may believe they are "forced" to do something but that "force" must be accepted/obeyed by the additic as the only option. An additic has other options but refuses them.
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You should probably watch some documentary about addicted ones.

"Addicted" means they need something and cannot help themselves.
 
QuickenedByHim said:
I completely agree, what I'm trying to say here thought is that if it is God's WILL that no men perish, then why will some men perish? <If it's not God's will!>
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That's a serious profound question that will some day be answered completely in a way that is scripturally sound and aligned with God's will and desire.
 
There is a diversity of belief and controversy on this issue.

I can only share what I believe:

When a mother warns a child not to touch a hot stove or he/she will be burned; she has no desire to see the child burned.

The consequence of touching the hot stove is inherent in the act of touching the hot stove.

The consequence of sin is also inherent in the act.

I believe that God created mankind because He wanted a creature who could receive and return His love.

The nature of love is such that it can not be programmed and must be a voluntary response.

God knew before Adam was created that Adam would eat the forbidden fruit, and need to be redeemed.

God valued love and the capacity to love enough that He was willing to redeem mankind from the consequence of sin through His own suffering.

In order to benefit from God's redemption, each person must decide to accept both the gift of redemption and Jesus claim of Lordship (ownership) on his/her life.

God offers this redemption freely to all men; but does not impose it on any. As refraining from eating the forbidden fruit was to Adam, the decision to accept or reject God's offer of both redemption and Lordship is to all mankind.

God desires that no man should perish; but desires more that people have the capacity to love.

I believe that Jesus paid the consequence for ALL sin and the only thing that sends any person to Hell is rejection of God's redemption and Lordship.
 
MarcR said:
There is a diversity of belief and controversy on this issue.

I can only share what I believe:

When a mother warns a child not to touch a hot stove or he/she will be burned; she has no desire to see the child burned.

The consequence of touching the hot stove is inherent in the act of touching the hot stove.

The consequence of sin is also inherent in the act.

I believe that God created mankind because He wanted a creature who could receive and return His love.

The nature of love is such that it can not be programmed and must be a voluntary response.

God knew before Adam was created that Adam would eat the forbidden fruit, and need to be redeemed.

God valued love and the capacity to love enough that He was willing to redeem mankind from the consequence of sin through His own suffering.

In order to benefit from God's redemption, each person must decide to accept both the gift of redemption and Jesus claim of Lordship (ownership) on his/her life.

God offers this redemption freely to all men; but does not impose it on any. As refraining from eating the forbidden fruit was to Adam, the decision to accept or reject God's offer of both redemption and Lordship is to all mankind.

God desires that no man should perish; but desires more that people have the capacity to love.

I believe that Jesus paid the consequence for ALL sin and the only thing that sends any person to Hell is rejection of God's redemption and Lordship.
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That of course brings up the next great question. Did Adam have any real concept of what eternal condemnation as in death really entailed?

Did Adam really consider the consequences of his actions or did he just act because of Eve?

One of those things I'll have to ask Adam in eternity or perhaps the Lord Himself will reveal it. I imagine a lot of folks may want to ask Adam what were you thinking man what were you thinking.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
tourist said:
That's a serious profound question that will some day be answered completely in a way that is scripturally sound and aligned with God's will and desire.
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The answer just is not that difficult to understand.

God wants (wills) all men to be saved, but He gave us free will, and He does not force anyone to do anything.

It is every persons prerogative to choose to believe.
 
shrume said:
The answer just is not that difficult to understand.

God wants (wills) all men to be saved, but He gave us free will, and He does not force anyone to do anything.

It is every persons prerogative to choose to believe.
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Still, it seems to me that the will and desire of God would supersede the free will and desire of a human being.
 
tourist said:
Still, it seems to me that the will and desire of God would supersede the free will and desire of a human being.
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The chief end of man is to glorify God. Some when they receive Gods great offer of redemption and others when they receive the terrible wrath of God on sin.

Gods will and desire are fulfilled regardless of what man chooses.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
notuptome said:
The chief end of man is to glorify God. Some when they receive Gods great offer of redemption and others when they receive the terrible wrath of God on sin.

Gods will and desire are fulfilled regardless of what man chooses.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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That doesn't make sense, Roger.

God wants all men to be saved. Many reject the offer of salvation. God's will is that they NOT reject it, but that they choose to believe. Therefore God's will and desire are not fulfilled.

What God did do is set up some rules. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life for those who choose to believe on Christ.

God abides by the rules He set up.
 
tourist said:
Still, it seems to me that the will and desire of God would supersede the free will and desire of a human being.
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if this was true. Everyone would recieve Christ and all would get to heaven,
 
tourist said:
Still, it seems to me that the will and desire of God would supersede the free will and desire of a human being.
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Seems right to men but leads to death. This is the philosophy that allowed Rome to teach purgatory as a second chance for sinners to be redeemed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
God desires that all men be saved and come to Him. So much so that Christ became the Perfect Sacrifice to make it possible. However, man has free will, and that puts a monkey wrench in the whole Plan.

Yes, IF GOD CHOSE FOR IT TO, His will could override mans free will, but He has chosen to give man the free choice to accept Him, love Him, and become one of His. God wants a people that love Him and WANT to by His children, not a bunch of robots.


(now, that's probably just me.......but, still)

:)
 
tourist said:
Still, it seems to me that the will and desire of God would supersede the free will and desire of a human being.
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That would of course be the logical expectation if Scripture did not reveal that some will in fact spend eternity in Hell.

Being that that is revealed in Scripture, we must consider what could possibly thwart God's Will?

I believe that God truly desires that none should perish; but He desires more that mankind have the capacity to love.

Since the capacity to love entails the capacity to reject love God is forced to choose 1 desire over the other.
 
QuickenedByHim said:
Something Ive been wondering.. If God is "NOT willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9), then why will some partake in the second death like Revelation 21:8 says??

If it's God's will that no man perish then why will some men perish? Spirit led thoughts and scripture references please.
Click to expand...
Simple. Because people so cut down scripture that they manage to make it say the opposite of what God said in the first place. Read 1 Peter 3, not merely the second half of verse 9, which happens to fall in the second half, (but not the end) of a paragraph to begin with, and the end of a long letter from Pete to a certain people.

It isn't God's will that everyone will not perish. It is his will that the ones he chose will not perish. And he will get his will.
 
notuptome said:
The chief end of man is to glorify God. Some when they receive Gods great offer of redemption and others when they receive the terrible wrath of God on sin.

Gods will and desire are fulfilled regardless of what man chooses.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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On this we are in agreement.
 
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