Healing in the Atonement?

[Stunnedbygrace]

shhh...

As I already stated, no.

 

[7777pinacled]

shhh...




(0) A song. A psalm of Asaf:

2 (1) God, don’t remain silent!
Don’t stay quiet, God, or still;
3 (2) because here are your enemies, causing an uproar;
those who hate you are raising their heads,
4 (3) craftily conspiring against your people,
consulting together against those you treasure.

5 (4) They say, “Come, let’s wipe them out as a nation;
let the name of Isra’el be remembered no more!”
6 (5) With one mind they plot their schemes;
the covenant they have made is against you —
7 (6) the tents of Edom and the Yishma‘elim,
Mo’av and the Hagrim,
8 (7) G’val, ‘Amon and ‘Amalek,
P’leshet with those living in Tzor; (Selah)
9 (8) Ashur too is allied with them,
to reinforce the descendants of Lot.

10 (9) Do to them as you did to Midyan,
to Sisra and Yavin at Vadi Kishon —
11 (10) they were destroyed at ‘Ein-Dor
and became manure for the ground.
12 (11) Make their leaders like ‘Orev and Ze’ev,
all their princes like Zevach and Tzalmuna,
13 (12) who said, “Let’s take possession
of God’s meadows for ourselves.”

14 (13) My God, make them like whirling dust,
like chaff driven by the wind.
15 (14) Like fire burning up the forest,
like a flame that sets the mountains ablaze,
16 (15) drive them away with your storm,
terrify them with your tempest.
17 (16) Fill their faces with shame,
so that they will seek your name, Adonai.
18 (17) Let them be ashamed and fearful forever;
yes, let them perish in disgrace.
19 (18) Let them know that you alone,
whose name is Adonai,
are the Most High over all the earth.



Philippians 2 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

2 Therefore, if you have any encouragement for me from your being in union with the Messiah, any comfort flowing from love, any fellowship with me in the Spirit, or any compassion and sympathy, 2 then complete my joy by having a common purpose and a common love, by being one in heart and mind. 3 Do nothing out of rivalry or vanity; but, in humility, regard each other as better than yourselves — 4 look out for each other’s interests and not just for your own.
5 Let your attitude toward one another be governed by your being in union with the Messiah Yeshua:
6 Though he was in the form of God,
he did not regard equality with God
something to be possessed by force.
7 On the contrary, he emptied himself,
in that he took the form of a slave
by becoming like human beings are.

And when he appeared as a human being,
8 he humbled himself still more
by becoming obedient even to death —
death on a stake as a criminal!
9 Therefore God raised him to the highest place
and gave him the name above every name;

10 that in honor of the name given Yeshua,
every knee will bow —
in heaven, on earth and under the earth —
11 and every tongue will acknowledge[a]
that Yeshua the Messiah is Adonai —
to the glory of God the Father.

12 So, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed when I was with you, it is even more important that you obey now when I am away from you: keep working out your deliverance with fear and trembling,[b]13 for God is the one working among you both the willing and the working for what pleases him. 14 Do everything without kvetching or arguing, 15 so that you may be blameless and pure children of God, without defect in the midst of a twisted and perverted generation,[c]among whom you shine like stars in the sky, 16 as you hold on to the Word of Life. If you do this, I will be able to boast, when the Day of the Messiah comes, that I did not run or toil for nothing. 17 Indeed, even if my lifeblood is poured out as a drink offering over the sacrifice and service of your faith, I will still be glad and rejoice with you all. 18 Likewise, you too should be glad and rejoice with me.
19 But I hope in the Lord Yeshua to send Timothy to you shortly, so that I too may be cheered by knowing how you are doing. 20 I have no one who compares with him, who will care so sincerely for your welfare — 21 people all put their own interests ahead of the Messiah Yeshua’s. 22 But you know his character, that like a child with his father he slaved with me to advance the Good News. 23 So I hope to send him just as soon as I see how things will go with me, 24 and I am confident in the Lord that before long I myself will come too.
25 Also I considered it necessary to send you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow-worker and fellow-soldier, the emissary whom you sent to take care of my needs; 26 since he has been longing for you all and has been distressed because you heard he was ill. 27 Indeed he was ill, close to death; but God had mercy on him — and not only on him, but also on me — otherwise I would have had sorrow piled on sorrow. 28 Therefore, I am all the more eager to send him, so that you may rejoice when you see him again; and I, for my part, may be less sad. 29 So give him a joyful welcome in the Lord; honor such people. 30 For he risked his life and nearly died working for the Messiah, in order to give me the help you were not in a position to give.

What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a minor he is no different from a slave, even though he is the legal owner of the estate; 2 rather, he is subject to guardians and caretakers until the time previously set by his father. 3 So it is with us — when we were “children” we were slaves to the elemental spirits of the universe; 4 but when the appointed time arrived, God sent forth his Son. He was born from a woman, born into a culture in which legalistic perversion of the Torah was the norm, 5 so that he might redeem those in subjection to this legalism and thus enable us to be made God’s sons. 6 Now because you are sons, God has sent forth into our hearts the Spirit of his Son, the Spirit who cries out, “Abba!” (that is, “Dear Father!”). 7
So through God you are no longer a slave but a son, and if you are a son you are also an heir.


God said to Avraham,
“As for Sarai your wife, you are not to call her Sarai [mockery]; her name is to be Sarah [princess]. 16 I will bless her; moreover, I will give you a son by her. Truly I will bless her: she will be a mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”

17 At this Avraham fell on his face and laughed — he thought to himself, “Will a child be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah give birth at ninety?” 18 Avraham said to God, “If only Yishma‘el could live in your presence!”

19 God answered,
“No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you are to call him Yitz’chak [laughter]. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 But as for Yishma‘el, I have heard you. I have blessed him. I will make him fruitful and give him many descendants. He will father twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But I will establish my covenant with Yitz’chak, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year.”

22 With that, God finished speaking with Avraham and went up from him.



A washing of the Word for hagar
After leaving, she wandered in the desert around Be’er-Sheva. 15 When the water in the skin was gone, she left the child under a bush, 16 and went and sat down, looking the other way, about a bow-shot’s distance from him; because she said, “I can’t bear to watch my child die.” So she sat there, looking the other way, crying out and weeping. 17
God heard the boy’s voice, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her,
“What’s wrong with you, Hagar?
Don’t be afraid, because God has heard the voice of the boy in his present situation. 18 Get up, lift the boy up, and hold him tightly in your hand, because I am going to make him a great nation.”

19 Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. So she went, filled the skin with water and gave the boy water to drink.







Is there a distinction between the twelve princes of the two sons and the parallel relationship of each who cry out to the Lord?
On the contrary, he emptied himself,
in that he took the form of a slave
by becoming like human beings are.

And when he appeared as a human being,
8 he humbled himself still more
by becoming obedient even to death —
death on a stake as a criminal!
9 Therefore God raised him to the highest place
and gave him the name above every name;

It says that Avraham had two sons,
one by the slave woman
and one by the free woman.The one by the slave woman was born according to the limited capabilities of human beings, (ismal)Yishma‘elim

but the one by the free woman was born through the miracle-working power of God fulfilling his promise.

24 Now, to make a midrash on these things:
the two women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai and bears children for slavery — this is Hagar. 25 Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Yerushalayim, for she serves as a slave along with her children. 26 But the Yerushalayim above is free, and she is our mother; 27 for the Tanakh says,

 

[Angela53510]

maybe we should invest in a thread about false visions and lying divinations and how people are oppressed by them

Ezekiel had something to say about that and his message was truly from God

would make an interesting thread I think

God says 'do not fear' and people come along and threaten others supposedly in the name of God

spiritual abuse

Oh! Me, me, me!

God has me doing a study of false prophets and visions as I read through the OT prophets. I didn’t start in Isaiah, unfortunately, but my Jeremiah, the list was growing.

A good portion of the OT prophets are about false teachers and preachers! I confess, I didn’t like Ezekiel on all my previous read through. But now, all the ”false prophets” are just jumping off the page.

Here’s the thing, everything these self appointed prophets and their followers (inside and outside CC) could well have these statements directed exactly at them. Here is something I read last night:

”Then the word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who are now prophesying. Say to the prophets who prophesy from their imagination: ‘Hear the word of the Lord! 3 This is what the sovereign Lord says: Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit but have seen nothing! 4 Your prophets have become like jackals among the ruins, O Israel. 5 You have not gone up in the breaks in the wall, nor repaired a wall for the house of Israel that it would stand strong in the battle on the day of the Lord. 6 They see delusion and their omens are a lie. They say, “the Lord declares,” though the Lord has not sent them; yet they expect their word to be confirmed. 7 Have you not seen a false vision and announced a lying omen when you say, “the Lord declares,” although I myself never spoke?
[FONT=&quot]
8 “‘Therefore, this is what the sovereign Lord says: Because you have spoken false words and forecast delusion, look, I am against you, declares the sovereign Lord. 9 My hand will be against the prophets who see delusion and announce lying omens. They will not be included in the council of my people, nor be written in the registry of the house of Israel, nor enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the sovereign Lord.” Ezekiel 13:1-9[/FONT]
“Prophesy against the prophets who are now prophesying.” It doesn’t get much truer than that!

“Because you have spoke false words and forecast delusion, look, against you, declares the sovereign Lord. “

Just wow!

I know I am off topic, but in a way, I am not. We have self appointed prophets in this forum, who don’t even have a clue what the Bible says, or how to exegete it. Then we have others copy and pasting pamphlets from people who are “prophets [who] have become like jackals among the ruins.”

We have others pronouncing not just judgements, but actually condemning and judging people’s salvation, false prophets every one!

“Have you not seen a false vision and announced a lying omen when you say “The Lord declares,” Although I myself never spoke!”

The Bible is so powerful! A word for all occasions.

 

[Angela53510]

When I started this thread, I posted that I knew there were two doctrines concerning the atonement. I didn't know why until I researched. It seems to come mostly through Pentecostal Christians but not solely.

Why? Because of the definition of one with God. It depends on what we see in this word. Also defining ressurection life.

I looked at Pauls words in the Greek concerning the latter. It's to stand up again from death. Even in this will come a division of understanding.

I also said I see atonement and communion as the one experience of receiving all that we need from the Lord. That we have returned to the garden and can receive the benefits of complete provision now, and then later...Paradise.

Thats my faith based asked on what I see from study. Not any mans opinions.

Faith is in the blood of Jesus. Blood is the life of men. His blood is heavenly, from another place than this earthly realm. And if discerned...will bring life to our body. Eternal, pure without disease, and powerful to set us free from the adamic human nature we are born into.

So the question to us all, is what do we see.

Post the Greek, please, on whatever verses you are talking about. I would love to exegete them properly, using decent tools, not Strong’s or Biblehub.

 

[Speak2Me]

Yep, the OT prophets can get scary with their accuracy about today's false prophets.

Nowadays the phraseology is different.

Instead of saying "the Lord says", they now say "the Spirit spoke to me", or "the Spirit's leading me this direction", or "the Spirit showed me".

Nothing new under the sun, aye?

 

[Speak2Me]

The truth is, true prophets don't need to say "thus saith the Lord".

Those the Lord is dealing with will know as soon as they hear/read it.

The Spirit within the christian will bear witness to it; The Spirit will convict the sinner of it.

We don't have to run around crying "I'm God's prophet!!!" God is big enuff to confirm it.

That's how we know true prophets still exist.

Those that say the don't wouldn't know a true prophet if he/she slapped them up side the head.

Lack of spiritual discernment is a noticeable fruit.

 

[Speak2Me]

Those that say the don't wouldn't know a true prophet if he/she slapped them up side the head.

They (ran out of time)

 

[wolfwint]

The move of the baptism of Holy Spirit has come to the Catholic Church. I used to attend the meetings at Christ The King Church in Indiana. Connected somehow to Notre Dame I think. It's been a while, but they had a hotel that members were selling properties and moving into this hotel. I don't think it's what the entire church has accepted though.

Am surprised you didnt know.

Stones, I know that the charismatic movement came under an other name on end of the 60 into the RCC. What I meant is that it is not an origin teaching of the RCC and yes, there where i live it is not in the RCC.

 

[stonesoffire]

Stones, I know that the charismatic movement came under an other name on end of the 60 into the RCC. What I meant is that it is not an origin teaching of the RCC and yes, there where i live it is not in the RCC.

I misunderstood then what you were asking. I think Lancelot addressed this better than I ever could. Am not sure what other name you heard though for I was involved in the movement as I said. But, my church back then was Christian Center. Lester Sumrall.

I really don't have anything more to add Wolf. We've gone over all these things before.

Either you agree with the supernatural works of Holy Spirit still for today, or you don't. It's the Cross of Jesus Christ, His blood shed for all the world, yet must be believed and received is where we will find unity. No other place but by His blood. I've found my tribe and am content. I hope the same for all.

Later...hopefully in another thread.

 

[wolfwint]

I misunderstood then what you were asking. I think Lancelot addressed this better than I ever could. Am not sure what other name you heard though for I was involved in the movement as I said. But, my church back then was Christian Center. Lester Sumrall.

I really don't have anything more to add Wolf. We've gone over all these things before.

Either you agree with the supernatural works of Holy Spirit still for today, or you don't. It's the Cross of Jesus Christ, His blood shed for all the world, yet must be believed and received is where we will find unity. No other place but by His blood. I've found my tribe and am content. I hope the same for all.

Later...hopefully in another thread.

Stones, i dont say that God is working supernaturell!!! I said only that the teachings about the baptism with the Holy Spirit and as sign for that speaking in tongues is not taught in the bible and also not during churchhistory. And no one was till now able to bring a proof that this was taught before Topeka and Azusa Events from 1900 on.

 

[wolfwint]

Stones, i dont say that God is working supernaturell!!! I said only that the teachings about the baptism with the Holy Spirit and as sign for that speaking in tongues is not taught in the bible and also not during churchhistory. And no one was till now able to bring a proof that this was taught before Topeka and Azusa Events from 1900 on.

I meant " i dont say that God is not working supernaturell today" i missed the word: NOT

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Stones, i dont say that God is working supernaturell!!! I said only that the teachings about the baptism with the Holy Spirit and as sign for that speaking in tongues is not taught in the bible and also not during churchhistory. And no one was till now able to bring a proof that this was taught before Topeka and Azusa Events from 1900 on.

In fact, Paul said: do all speak in tongues? Do all prophesy? (The obvious answer was no.) He distributes the gifts as He will.
To insist all must move in any gift is wrong. And tongues has ever been a problem as even Paul, way back when, had to address the problem of it being used wrongly.

 

[7777pinacled]

Oh! Me, me, me!

God has me doing a study of false prophets and visions as I read through the OT prophets. I didn’t start in Isaiah, unfortunately, but my Jeremiah, the list was growing.

A good portion of the OT prophets are about false teachers and preachers! I confess, I didn’t like Ezekiel on all my previous read through. But now, all the ”false prophets” are just jumping off the page.

Here’s the thing, everything these self appointed prophets and their followers (inside and outside CC) could well have these statements directed exactly at them. Here is something I read last night:

”Then the word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who are now prophesying. Say to the prophets who prophesy from their imagination: ‘Hear the word of the Lord! 3 This is what the sovereign Lord says: Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit but have seen nothing! 4 Your prophets have become like jackals among the ruins, O Israel. 5 You have not gone up in the breaks in the wall, nor repaired a wall for the house of Israel that it would stand strong in the battle on the day of the Lord. 6 They see delusion and their omens are a lie. They say, “the Lord declares,” though the Lord has not sent them; yet they expect their word to be confirmed. 7 Have you not seen a false vision and announced a lying omen when you say, “the Lord declares,” although I myself never spoke?

8 “‘Therefore, this is what the sovereign Lord says: Because you have spoken false words and forecast delusion, look, I am against you, declares the sovereign Lord. 9 My hand will be against the prophets who see delusion and announce lying omens. They will not be included in the council of my people, nor be written in the registry of the house of Israel, nor enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the sovereign Lord.” Ezekiel 13:1-9
“Prophesy against the prophets who are now prophesying.” It doesn’t get much truer than that!

“Because you have spoke false words and forecast delusion, look, against you, declares the sovereign Lord. “

Just wow!

I know I am off topic, but in a way, I am not. We have self appointed prophets in this forum, who don’t even have a clue what the Bible says, or how to exegete it. Then we have others copy and pasting pamphlets from people who are “prophets [who] have become like jackals among the ruins.”

We have others pronouncing not just judgements, but actually condemning and judging people’s salvation, false prophets every one!

“Have you not seen a false vision and announced a lying omen when you say “The Lord declares,” Although I myself never spoke!”

The Bible is so powerful! A word for all occasions.

Yes,
something i learned to call a hairy mantle of deceit.
if you read of what david warned his son solomon about you might see what i mean.

prophets abroad were safer than being in judah during that period of time.

 

[stonesoffire]

I meant " i dont say that God is not working supernaturell today" i missed the word: NOT

Im not saying tongues is the only sign either wolf. But, something was said that the apostles knew that Holy Spirit had been given. There was both prophecy and tongues initially spoken. Both come out of Spirit, not the mind. Same as the word of wisdom- knowledge.

In the great crowd I was in when I received Holy Spirit, no one spoke that I witnessed. I was given a sign however, a wind. Then praise filled my heart.

I never worshipped until then like I do now. Tongues came out of worship then. But, that's me and how the Lord was with me. We all are His children and will receive differently.

I wonder why you and I always end up in this discussion. Lol

Do you think healing was included in the atonement? I have no idea what you believe about this.

 

[7777pinacled]

Are you saying that healing the condition of our spirits comes from physical wine and oil ?

Have you partaken of the bread and wine?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Angela53510;3478071]Oh! Me, me, me!

God has me doing a study of false prophets and visions as I read through the OT prophets. I didn’t start in Isaiah, unfortunately, but my Jeremiah, the list was growing.

many today have the unfortunate idea they are cast in the likeness of an OT prophet and threaten harm to people or say harm will come upon them...we have seen some of that variety of so called prophet from time to time in these forums...we can ALWAYS be sure that person does not speak for God, apart from the fact this is a forum and for the most part, I think it is pretty clear that NT prophets are part of a local church and do not have the roll of an OT prophet but the gift is mostly for exhortation and speaking forth the word and not the future

I think there are exceptions to that but God is still saying 'whosoever will may come' and that is the current word and not the 'end of the world will be in 3 months' or a tidal wave is gonna wipe out the western US (that was a very popular one but it DID NOT HAPPEN) and all that does is put people to sleep so if a real word were to ever go out, people would yawn and I think that is part of the reason the devil is so inspiring behind all those false prophecies...they also make Christians look like lying fools

A good portion of the OT prophets are about false teachers and preachers! I confess, I didn’t like Ezekiel on all my previous read through. But now, all the ”false prophets” are just jumping off the page.

that would be true the Holy Spirit did not indwell the entire nation of Israel as He does for Christians now and prophets had the unhappy task of constantly trying to turn the nation around. I'm not sure how it worked for them, but it is kind of intriguing to read 'the word of the Lord came to me' in the good ole days, false prophets were to be stoned...now we just put up with them

prophets (cough cough) today like to preach doom and gloom or the flip side of wealth and health (gee I didn't plan the rhyming sequence there but I guess it works haha)

the NAR leadership consists of prophets and (cough cough) Apostles....if you think the false prophets are nasty, check out the new wave Apostles...worse...the more I look into it, the more I see this move as the most dangerous one in Christianity today

Here’s the thing, everything these self appointed prophets and their followers (inside and outside CC) could well have these statements directed exactly at them. Here is something I read last night: AGREED!

”Then the word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who are now prophesying. Say to the prophets who prophesy from their imagination: ‘Hear the word of the Lord! 3 This is what the sovereign Lord says: Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit but have seen nothing! 4 Your prophets have become like jackals among the ruins, O Israel. 5 You have not gone up in the breaks in the wall, nor repaired a wall for the house of Israel that it would stand strong in the battle on the day of the Lord. 6 They see delusion and their omens are a lie. They say, “the Lord declares,” though the Lord has not sent them; yet they expect their word to be confirmed. 7 Have you not seen a false vision and announced a lying omen when you say, “the Lord declares,” although I myself never spoke?

8 “‘Therefore, this is what the sovereign Lord says: Because you have spoken false words and forecast delusion, look, I am against you, declares the sovereign Lord. 9 My hand will be against the prophets who see delusion and announce lying omens. They will not be included in the council of my people, nor be written in the registry of the house of Israel, nor enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the sovereign Lord.” Ezekiel 13:1-9
“Prophesy against the prophets who are now prophesying.” It doesn’t get much truer than that!

I find that interesting...prophesy against the prophets!

“Because you have spoke false words and forecast delusion, look, against you, declares the sovereign Lord. “

Just wow!

I know I am off topic, but in a way, I am not. We have self appointed prophets in this forum, who don’t even have a clue what the Bible says, or how to exegete it. Then we have others copy and pasting pamphlets from people who are “prophets [who] have become like jackals among the ruins.”

I know that is what gets me concerned.

We have others pronouncing not just judgements, but actually condemning and judging people’s salvation, false prophets every one!

yup.. some of that right in this thread

“Have you not seen a false vision and announced a lying omen when you say “The Lord declares,” Although I myself never spoke!”

The Bible is so powerful! A word for all occasions.

what comes to mind: (and God knows I am NOT AT ALL saying God told me to say this) but what comes to mind is this verse:

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Romans 3:4

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Reminded now of the verse that says something like...you have disheartened those who should not have been disheartened and have encouraged those you should not have.

Actually, let me look that up.

Its ezek 13:22.

 

[7777pinacled]

Reminded now of the verse that says something like...you have disheartened those who should not have been disheartened and have encouraged those you should not have.

Actually, let me look that up.

Its ezek 13:22.

How many gates are there in the vision given to yechezkel(ezekiel)

My son, keep the commands of your father, and do not forsake the instruction of your mother.
Bind them always upon your heart, tie them upon your neck.

}When you walk, it shall lead you;
}when you lie down, it shall guard you,
}and when you awaken, it shall speak for you.

For a commandment is a candle, and the Torah is light, and disciplining rebukes are the way of life;

 

[7777pinacled]

Reminded now of the verse that says something like...you have disheartened those who should not have been disheartened and have encouraged those you should not have.

Actually, let me look that up.

Its ezek 13:22.

How many gates are there in the vision given to yechezkel(ezekiel)


Bind them always upon your heart, tie them upon your neck.

}When you walk, it shall lead you;
}when you lie down, it shall guard you,
}and when you awaken, it shall speak for you.

For a commandment is a candle, and the Torah is light, and disciplining rebukes are the way of life;



If you keep with a Charity of Fire and whirlwind of Faith you will have no doubt in the Power of the Holy One to lead you unto all Truth.
What was it said about a wall of fire and a woman encompassing a man.
My son, keep the commands of your father, and do not forsake the instruction of your mother.

A many membered body to glory in the Son.
oil and wine
though, i imagine that some have possibly forgotten or even have not partook of the vision given to yechezkel of the Chariot and Angels who uphold the Word faithfully without fail.
The gates are a part of the temple that is you sis, and is a testimony of the Lord knocking on the door.

Do you See Him entering to take the scroll and loosing the seals to Heal you of all infirmities?

 

[stonesoffire]

How many gates are there in the vision given to yechezkel(ezekiel)

My son, keep the commands of your father, and do not forsake the instruction of your mother.
Bind them always upon your heart, tie them upon your neck.

}When you walk, it shall lead you;
}when you lie down, it shall guard you,
}and when you awaken, it shall speak for you.

For a commandment is a candle, and the Torah is light, and disciplining rebukes are the way of life;

Pin, where is that last line found in the Complete Jewish bible? That's beautiful!