Jesus: Both Son and Father?

apostolic862004 · Mar 7, 2018

From Bluto:

Bluto:

First of all, you are wrong in stating that I do not believe Christ existed before the incarnation. I do believe he existed: as the Father. Let me explain what i believe so there are no misconceptions or assumptions as have already been happening. (I am not a Modalist.)

In the beginning of time, before earth, heaven, angels, or any of creation existed, God (the Father) was there. - (Psalm 90:2, Psalm 93:2)
He then created all things - Isaiah 44:24
He constantly emphasized to the children of Israel that he is the only God - Deuteronomy 6:4, Isa 44;24, Isa 45:5, etc
He gave them a promise that their one God (the Father) would come and save them - Isa 35:3-6, Isa 9:6, Isa 7:14
He told them what the signs would be that God was among them - Isa 35:3-6
God (the Father) came in the flesh just like he said he would! - Luke chapter 1, John 1:1-14
Jesus tried to tell them he was God that came in the flesh - John 10:30, John 14:6-11

You see, all of the scriptures then make sense when you realize that the Father was the spirit that lived inside of the man Christ Jesus. Then when you see Jesus, you are seeing God himself but he is veiled in the flesh. No man can look upon God and live. But you could look at the man Christ Jesus and you were looking at God Almighty! So Jesus was the one God (the Father of the old testament.

So when the bible says all things were created by Jesus, guess what. They were! Because who is Jesus? The Father that is manifested in the flesh! The creator! The Almighty God! Just like he said he was in Revelation 1:8 and Isa 9:6. Jesus Christ is the everlasting Father, the Almighty God! Whoo!

apostolic862004 · Mar 7, 2018

Now for those who keep calling me a modalist, let me make it very clear i am not a modalist. As far as my understanding, a modalist is someone who believes that God physically transforms himself whenever he fulfills a different role. If my understanding is incorrect then please forgive me and correct me. But if that is correct, i do not believe that.

I do however believe that the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit (however you prefer it) refer to 3 different aspects of God's relationship to humanity. In the same way that a man can be his son's Father, Pastor, and Boss. If a man worked for his dad at a company, and his dad was also the Pastor at his church, then his Dad has three different aspects of his relationship to his son. And depending on the context of their conversation or their location, his Dad's conversation with him and behavior towards him will be different. However his dad does not have to be three separate individuals to fulfill each role and neither does he have to physically transform into another being to fulfill the roles.

So if the father and son are on a job site, the dad has can tell the son to perform a specific task because he has the authority to do so. At the same time, if his son needs some counsel and spiritual guidance while working on the job, that dad can speak as his Pastor. But he doesn't stop being his boss just because they are now talking about spiritual things. He has the authority and the ability to do both! This is why Jesus could be hungry as a man, and yet he could multiply fish and bread to feed a multitude as well. He did not stop being the Creator simply because he indwelt the man Jesus Christ.

Noose · Mar 7, 2018

apostolic862004 said:

That's right, not only is Jesus the Father (He even calls Himself Father & God in Revelation 21:7 The one who is victorious will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son) He is the holy spirit. The whole of John 14/15/16 Jesus tries to explain to the disciples this relationship (Father/son/Holy spirit) and the fact that He represents all these authorities in different ways.
We can also deduce this by comparing the authorities; The holy spirit cries 'abba father'/ He only says what He hears from the Father; the son also is the son because he relies on the Father/ the son says only what he hears from the Father. Jesus says he must go so that the Holy spirit comes and if He doesn't go, the Holy spirit won't come even though the Holy spirit was already there with them.
Think about it.

bluto · Mar 7, 2018

apostolic862004 said:

First of all thank you for your reply. I can also tell you are "confused" because you are minuderstanding the Scriptures. For example, you quoted Psalm 90:2 and Psalm 93:2, why did you insert or assume that the word "Father" is in the verses? It's not, it says "The Lord" or it will simply say, "God."

You also did it with the rest of verses you quoted and you will not find that word "father" in any of them. I also quoted you Isaiah 44:24 for a reason. It was to show you that (1) the Father is not in the verse and (2) it says the Lord created all things by Himself. So if the Lord God is the creator of all things and He did it "By Himself," why is it necessary for the NT at John 1:1-3 tells us that the Son (who is NOT God the Father) identified or presented as the agent of creation?

John 1:1-14 itself makes a distinction between God the Father and His Son. If Jesus is God the Father then why does John 1:1 say explicitly say, "the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God?" If your with somebody you are NOT that somebody. I am also surprised that you did not quote John 14:6-9? Oneness love these verses and use them often to prove Jesus is God the Father, but that is NOT what the verses are teaching. I have to go right now but will get back to you later on in the day.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Noose · Mar 7, 2018

apostolic862004 said:

I clearly get your point of view, it has some aspects of modalism- that's what i have been told also but i still see it all over the scriptures. Jesus is the Father, he comes down as the son to demonstrate to us sonship, He hands over sonship to us but when he goes back, he becomes our father because He indwells us in the form of the Holy spirit.
That's the reason He said things like "in a while you see me no more and in a little while you'll see me again..." and the disciples were just perplexed.

tourist · Mar 7, 2018

If Jesus is both the Father and the Son then Jesus must also be the Holy Spirit also. In the bible it says that Jesus prayed to His Father who is in Heaven and also said that once He is resurrected from the dead the Holy Spirit would come and be a helper to the faithful who remained. Clearly, there are three separate entities, the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit that comprises one God. Take away either one and God would cease to exist, and of course, that's impossible.

tourist · Mar 7, 2018

Locutus said:

That's better than 'father of futility'.

notuptome · Mar 7, 2018

Just how do you propose to separate the Godhead? How will you separate the Father from the Son from the Holy Spirit? Only God can be all three at the same time. Separate yet indivisible united and yet three.

Only God Who is God can be God. Everywhere all the time and yet outside of time. This is the stuff that has caused philosophers to burn out their brain cells.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

garee · Mar 7, 2018

Hi , the agent is never in respect to that seen the temporal used as a one time demonstration .

To begin with I would offer that God is not a man as us.Never was never could be. But as a supernatural, Eternal Spirit. (No nature or beginning).

Its the things of men that look to give God a beginning ( nature) so they can glory in their own flesh in some sort of familiarity.

It was that reason outward Jews crucified the Son of man they felt no familiarity in spirit .They who were not born again after the incorruptible seed of God's word were not seeking the same spirit of faith according as it is written. He came to his own and they received Him not.. marking themselves as antichrists .

Two immutable attributes called a father and Son working as one in perfect harmony and submissiveness as one work of one faith. Knowing His one faith without working it out is dead.

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

The Son of God as the deity speaks to the fact that he remains continually our high priest without beginning or end, no mother and father. Not a created being. but the faithful Creator.

The Son of man the temporal in which he refused worship informed us that only God not seen is good . I think as a reminder to help us to remember to mix faith in what we do hear or see. His corrupted flesh which he himself self said does not profit was used for a one time outward demonstration of the lamb of God who was slain from before the foundation of . Let there be.. and it was good. The demonstration as a shadow points back the foundation of the world. we continue to walk by His faith that works in us with us to both will and perform his good pleasure.(imputed righteousness)

I would offer blood made from the dust and water as that seen represents the unseen spirit essence of spirit life. That is the kind of life that is in the blood and not of the blood .Literal blood of its own returns to where it came from .The lifeless spiritless dust it was formed of .

Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Job I believe helps us to understand the unseen faith principle.( Law of faith)

Job 13:14 Wherefore do I take my flesh in my teeth, and put my lifein mine hand?

Note...Hand can be used to represent will

One more example of taking the literal meaning and not coming to the proper spiritual understanding in those parables.

Galatians 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

kaylagrl · Mar 7, 2018

apostolic862004 said:

Now for those who keep calling me a modalist, let me make it very clear i am not a modalist. As far as my understanding, a modalist is someone who believes that God physically transforms himself whenever he fulfills a different role. If my understanding is incorrect then please forgive me and correct me. But if that is correct, i do not believe that.

I do however believe that the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit (however you prefer it) refer to 3 different aspects of God's relationship to humanity. In the same way that a man can be his son's Father, Pastor, and Boss. If a man worked for his dad at a company, and his dad was also the Pastor at his church, then his Dad has three different aspects of his relationship to his son. And depending on the context of their conversation or their location, his Dad's conversation with him and behavior towards him will be different. However his dad does not have to be three separate individuals to fulfill each role and neither does he have to physically transform into another being to fulfill the roles.

So if the father and son are on a job site, the dad has can tell the son to perform a specific task because he has the authority to do so. At the same time, if his son needs some counsel and spiritual guidance while working on the job, that dad can speak as his Pastor. But he doesn't stop being his boss just because they are now talking about spiritual things. He has the authority and the ability to do both! This is why Jesus could be hungry as a man, and yet he could multiply fish and bread to feed a multitude as well. He did not stop being the Creator simply because he indwelt the man Jesus Christ.

"The man Jesus Christ" was also deity,He was/is God,He was crucified because He claimed to be God.If you do not believe this then yes,Im afraid you are wrong.

apostolic862004 · Mar 7, 2018

See the irony here? You accused me of inserting or assuming a word, and then you turned around and did exactly that. In the Psalms, the reason we "assume" that it is referring to the Father is because this is a Jew that is writing worship songs for Jews to sing. All of the Jews only believed in One God. They did not believe in a trinity and they still don't believe in a trinity. They only believed in one single God. And they also believed that that one single God was their Lord. It appears to me that you do not believe the Father is Lord.

Deut 6:4 - Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.

Psalm 99:9: Exalt the Lord our God, and worship at his holy hill; for the Lord our God is holy.

And on and on and on.

You are wrong. It does not make a distinction between the Father and Son. The word "Word" in this passage in the original greek is "logos" which means plan or concept. John 1:1 would read "In the beginning was the Plan, and the Plan was with God, and the Plan was God." This is consistent with Revelation 13:8:

Rev 13:18 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Obviously Jesus had not been physically slain before anything was created. If he had been that would mean two things: He was not eternal, and either the Father or the Holy Ghost had killed him! That is obviously not what was being expressed. How then was he slain from the foundation of the world? It was the plan of God for him to die! But guess who was going to die for us? GOD HIMSELF! He didn't send someone else to do his work, he came in the form of man and did it himself! God had this plan "with" him from the very beginning of creation. The Word is not a separate being from God, the Word or the "plan" was God! The plan was that God would come and die for humanity.

oldhermit · Mar 7, 2018

apostolic862004 said:

You have no earthly idea what you are talking about here. You need to learn something about the language before giving an opinion on the translation.

kaijo · Mar 7, 2018

trinitylover said:

Oh?
And how does what i said sound like modalism? Explain please?

If u take the time to actually think about what i just said, without rushing through it (and, its only one line) it sounds Nothing like modalism.

apostolic862004 · Mar 7, 2018

Bingo tourist! You got it! The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all one and the same being! Let me give some examples:

Jesus said he would raise himself from the dead.
John 2:19 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Paul said God raised him from the dead.
Acts 13:30 - But God raised him from the dead.

Who raised him from the dead?

Jesus said the Father would send another comforter.
John 14:16 - And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Two verses later, Jesus said he would comfort us.
John 14:18 - I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you

Then he said the Holy Ghost is the comforter.
John 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you

God (the Father) said he is the first and the last.
Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Jesus said he is the first and the last.
Revelation 1:17 - And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Jesus is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. And that is why Colossians 2:9 says in him is all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Verse 10 says that you are COMPLETE in him. When you get Jesus, you don't need anything else because when you get Jesus, you get it all!

This is also why Jesus said to baptize in the NAME(singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. His name(singular) is Jesus!

apostolic862004 · Mar 7, 2018

Originally Posted by apostolic862004

You are wrong. It does not make a distinction between the Father and Son. The word "Word" in this passage in the original greek is "logos" which means plan or concept. John 1:1 would read "In the beginning was the Plan, and the Plan was with God, and the Plan was God." This is consistent with Revelation 13:8:

You have no earthly idea what you are talking about here. You need to learn something about the language before giving an opinion on the translation.

I'm no greek scholar at all, but I do know how to read the English version of Strong's.

7seasrekeyed · Mar 7, 2018

oneness Pentecostalism here?

sorry...lack of time to read the whole thread

trofimus · Mar 7, 2018

apostolic862004 said:

Bingo tourist! You got it! The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all one and the same being! Let me give some examples:

Jesus said he would raise himself from the dead.
John 2:19 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Paul said God raised him from the dead.
Acts 13:30 - But God raised him from the dead.

Who raised him from the dead?

Jesus said the Father would send another comforter.
John 14:16 - And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Two verses later, Jesus said he would comfort us.
John 14:18 - I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you

Then he said the Holy Ghost is the comforter.
John 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you

God (the Father) said he is the first and the last.
Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Jesus said he is the first and the last.
Revelation 1:17 - And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Jesus is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. And that is why Colossians 2:9 says in him is all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Verse 10 says that you are COMPLETE in him. When you get Jesus, you don't need anything else because when you get Jesus, you get it all!

This is also why Jesus said to baptize in the NAME(singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. His name(singular) is Jesus!

If Jesus is Father, there is no meaning in Jesus´a prayers to Father.

oldhermit · Mar 7, 2018

apostolic862004 said:

Have you ever done a grammatical exegesis of verses one and two. I do not care where you got your information. What you are suggesting is absolute nonsense. Greek is just like any other language. It has rules that must be followed or the communication of ideas becomes impossible. The grammar of these two verses make it absolutely certain that John is talking about two separate persons. Even a cursory reading of the text reveals two separate persons. If you want to look at this more closely I will be happy to show you.

apostolic862004 · Mar 7, 2018

Quite untrue. Because Jesus was both fully God and fully a man. This is the great mystery that Paul was speaking about in 1 Timothy 3:16. Jesus was hungry, sleepy, thirsty, and needy just like any other ordinary man. Yet he was also God that had the power to multiply food, never sleeps, provided living water and had all power. I do not pretend to understand the details of how how he could function as both God and man, i only believe what the bible says. As a man he prayed earnestly to God for his help, he felt the pain of the cross, and he bled and died. His prayers were earnest and sincere. But although he had the power to call down twelve legions of angels, he submitted himself to the cross.

trofimus · Mar 7, 2018

apostolic862004 said:

That does not answer why for example Jesus was praying to Father if he can avoid the cross, but that the will of Father must be done.

Or why Father sent His son into the world.

Etc. You need to throw out half of Bible if you want to get rid of Trinity.

Jesus: Both Son and Father?

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