The Rapture of the Church is not biblical.
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The coming of Christ for His saints has always been imminent, but you can contradict Scripture to your heart's content. The apostles and New Testament Christians expected this in their lifetimes, and we expect it in ours. The rest of your post shows that you are very confused about this subject (as are many other Christians).
Why don't you start with Romans chapter 11, and then begin a serious study of the Prophets? Evidently you do not really believe what God has revealed but prefer to hold on to some man-made ideas.
God does indeed have a separate plan for redeemed and restored Israel AFTER the second coming of Christ. Believe it!
You simply don;t know what you are talking about, it would be better if you ask so that it be shown to you. Christ doesn't return as a physical entity but as the kingdom of God. I just can't believe how masses are blinded by false doctrines when scriptures emphasize the point that Jesus doesn't return physically.
S
SpoonJuly
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But who was speaking? Who said "for the great day of his wrath is come:?
Also, why were they making that judgement?
Was it one of the Heavenly Host, or was it a man?
Sorry Noose this is a point where we differ the Kingdom of God is not something separate from Christ it is Christ. That is why he said he told us not to look for it because it is within us and why Paul said Christ in you the hope of glory. Jesus came as God incarnate to fulfill the ultimate purpose of redeeming humanity and the whole of creation. He was also the true temple because the Father was with him. Wherever God is so the Temple or Gods dwelling place is. Before the fall God walked with Adam in Eden because the whole Earth was his temple. Revelation describes the new heaven and earth in terms of Eden with the tree of life which also represents christ and the Holy Spirit as the river flowing from the throne of God. Christ will return and the description of the kingdom of the Messiah is symbolic of his return to Eden and the renewed Earth.
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Since Christ Himself said several times that He would return personally and physically to earth, and even the Apostles Creed confirms that, it is evident that you do not believe what He has said.
But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mt 26:63,64).
Let's take that Scripture and examine it closely.
1. Hereafter: The Lord already knew that He would be crucified, buried, and resurrected, and then would ascend to the right hand of the Father, who said "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool".
2. Sitting on the right hand of power: Did Christ ascend in a real, tangible, glorified body to Heaven, and is He physically and personally seated at the right hand of the Father? Absolutely.
3.and coming in the clouds of heaven: So who will come in the clouds of Heaven? The spiritual Kingdom of God, or the King of kings and Lord of lords?
Please take note:
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war... And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (Rev 19:11,16)
So what you are telling us is that YOU DO NOT BELIEVE the Word of God. That is strange for a Christian.
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There is nothing about what I have written that is man made why dont you study the whole bible instead of being fixated by bits of it.
You claim to only study the Bible and yet here you are on a social web site not only reading postings but creating them yourself. Are they not man made? Tell me what is the difference between CC and other sources of information other than the Bible?
The problem you have is the identification of who Paul said is a real Jew. According to him it is one who is circumcised not in the flesh but in the heart. Those are them that are part of Israel, being born Jewish is not the criteria for salvation but believing in Christ is. There is only one way to salvation whoever you are. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the light no one comes to the Father accept by me. He also said to the Jewish leadership you search the scriptures because you believe that in them there is eternal life and they speak about me. There have and still are Jews who have accepted Christ as Saviour and Lord. They are the people who Paul is speaking about. A remnant will be saved through faith in Christ not because they live in a certain bit of land or were born of Jewish Parents. Most rejected Christ at his first coming and many still reject him to this day. Paul also said we were all one in Christ Jesus. He included believing Jews.
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Dan 9:25-27
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV
The Hebrew word נָגִיד translated prince simply means commander or person in charge.
Daniel is writing sometime after Cyrus has overthrown Babylon c 529 B.C.
Ezera led a party of Jews back to Jerusalem c. 459 B.C.
from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem
Artaxerxes [probably identical with Ahashuares of Esther] gave the command to rebuild the wall c. 455 B.C.
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off
Jesus was born c. 5 B.C. He began His ministry c. 25 A.D. and was cut off c. 28 A.D. 69 weeks (483 years) after the command to rebuild the wall.
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
the prince here has to refer to Vespasian, the emperor, or Titus, his general. 70 A.D.
BUT, it anticipates a dual fulfillment:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease
Here we have a presumption that the temple is rebuilt and sacrifice is resumed.
And he shall confirm He IMO still refers to the commander of Rome in a different time frame
If you will go through Romans chapters 9 through 11 carefully, you will note that Paul already recognized this, and lamented the fact. But then he goes to say in chapter 11 "And so all Israel shall be saved". In this chapter he is confirming what is already revealed in the OT about Israel in the future -- AFTER the second coming of Christ. And that is what we are talking about.
Yes, and this is while he was discussing the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body without any distinctions). Indeed in chapter 10 he calls believing Jews/ Israel "the good olive tree" and believing Gentiles branches grafted in from "the wild olive tree". So in the Church it was always "the (believing) Jew first" and then the "Greek" (Gentile).
But what you need to remember is this: "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom 11:25). What does "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" mean?
In the context of the Church and Israel, it means that there is a limit to the number of Gentiles who will be taken into the Church. Once that "fulness" is completed, God will resume His dealings with Israel as Israel at the second coming of Christ -- when "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" [Israel] (Rom 11:26). So this is about the redemption and restoration of Israel following the real, personal, physical second coming of Christ.
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People will not be "left behind" as has been depicted by many misguided people in sharing the Word and in movie making.
The nearest teaching to being taken up by the angels of God, or "raptured," is on the day our Lord returns when al who sleep in the hope of Jesus Christ, Yeshua, are taken up first than we who remain quick (alive in the flesh) are taken up second to meet our blessed Savior on the clouds.
You folks who believe this know that the outer darkness and the lake of fire are more than enough punishment for the enemies followers, don't you?
Jesus is returning soon, amen
The nearest teaching to being taken up by the angels of God, or "raptured," is on the day our Lord returns when al who sleep in the hope of Jesus Christ, Yeshua, are taken up first than we who remain quick (alive in the flesh) are taken up second to meet our blessed Savior on the clouds.
You folks who believe this know that the outer darkness and the lake of fire are more than enough punishment for the enemies followers, don't you?
Jesus is returning soon, amen
John 14:1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[SUP]a[/SUP] ; believe also in me. 2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.”......
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 16:16Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”
You keep telling us about the mansion in heaven with a lot of rooms and that believers will be raptured to go and live in the rooms. We see in John 14 that Jesus promised the disciples of His coming and taking them away. Well, i hate to be the one to tell you that they were not raptured, they were killed.
Jesus tells them that He will come to them soon and make a home with them (that home in them is the many rooms) and that He will be with them forever.
Where was there rapture?
Your error is that, the promise was not only made to the disciples, but to the entire church. That is why in 1 Thes.4:13-18, Jesus says that the dead will rise first. This would include everyone, including the disciples who will have died from the on-set of the church to the time of the resurrection. Immediately after dead are resurrected, those still alive in Christ will be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Therefore, Jesus' promise will still be fulfilled, except that the disciples will be apart of the resurrected group, while we who are still alive, will be those who changed and caught up. Those who have died will be resurrected into their immortal and glorified bodies and the entire church will be gathered in one place, where the Lord will take us all back to the Father's house to those places that He has prepared for us.
Most everything that is written to the disciples, is intended for believers throughout the entire church period, with some exceptions where Jesus was speaking specifically to those twelve.
Galatians 3: 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[SUP]c[/SUP]
7Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[SUP]d[/SUP] 9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Rom 9:1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised![SUP]a[/SUP] Amen.
6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[SUP]b[/SUP] 8In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[SUP]c[/SUP]
10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[SUP]d[/SUP] 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
If you are to understand anything in Romans 11, you have to start at Romans 9. Paul means believers when he is talking about Israel (believers from all nations) and when he talks of gentiles, he is talking of unbelievers from all nations including Jews. So, from Rom 9:8 onward, the mention of Israel is to mean believers. Israel of the old was just a reflection of believers and like I have always pointed out here, believers are of two groups; the faithful and the unfaithful believers. When Paul says that whole Israel is saved, it means that at the end, all believers will be saved.
Gentiles being grafted means unbelievers become believers and it will happen until the appointed number of believers (by promise) is achieved. The whole message of Paul to the Romans was that they should believe in Christ for if they believe, they are grafted in to be part of Israel (Believers)- Paul, did not go all the way to Rome to preach to them how Israel (Jews) will be saved but how Romans should be saved.
There are no exceptions. If you want to know the promises to the church, read Revelations (the whole of it). The promises to the disciples are very specific because Jesus uses terms like:
"..Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. "
“In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”
Look carefully at this promises:
John 14:1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[SUP]a[/SUP] ; believe also in me.2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.4You know the way to the place where I am going.”...
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live......23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
So Jesus promises them that He will come and take them to His Father's home where He Himself stays so that they may be with Him- but He also says that Himself and the Father are coming to make a home inside the believers and that's the place they stay forever. So, the many rooms that Jesus was promising the disciples is indeed the heart of believers- that's where Jesus stays forever. It is God's holy dwelling.
So your still here. Perhaps you missed my query as to why seeing that you claim only to read the Bible because everything else is from Man. Debating with you and some others is very similar to arguing with a Jehovahs Witness. They claim to have all the answers and can ''prove'' it all from the Bible. They are also convinced that only they have the truth and everyone else is wrong. So I am not going to bother with your post Just metaphorically close the front door.
No one disputes that the dead will rise first, this is with regards to the very end when judgement shall take place. Let's read two passages and make comparisons:
1 Thess 4:13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Rev 20:4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
You believe the saints in 1 Thess 4 are the church, don't you? but the promise in 1 Thess 4 is that they will be with Christ forever, isn't it? but in Rev 20 which happens later, we don't see the so called church which was promised to be with the Lord forever, we see saints that were beheaded rulling with Christ for 1000 years.
How are you going to spin this to fit your fantasy?