Mother Of God?

[dallasb78]

Almost the most breathtakingly false proposition I have heard on this forum - and that is going some!!!!!

The measure or standard of truth (theological truth) is NOT the Roman Catholic Church, NOT EVER, it is the Word of God and the Word of God alone!

If the evidence for a doctrine is not to be found in Scripture it has NO place in Christian belief and practice!
Can I say this any more emphatically!!

If the Bible is the only measure or standard of truth then it begs the question: Who's interpretation of the Bible should we follow? As there are as many interpretations of Scripture these days as there are protestant churches(about 30000).

Also the Bible says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth(1 Timothy 3:15), not the Bible.

 

[jaybird88]

Mary is the mother of Messiah, in the flesh. Beyond that SHE IS NOTHING SPECIAL!!!! JUST A WOMAN!!! NO BIG DEAL!!!! EQUAL TO ALL SINNERS WHO NEED(ED) SAVED!!!!WE DO NOT PRAY TO HER SHE IS A SINNER SAVED BY GRACE, I AM HERE EQUAL... A SINNER SAVED BY GRACE!!!!!

but the fact is Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and that is what makes her special. "beyond that" she is no one special, well of course she is not, when you remove what makes her special. you can do this with anyone in the bible, remove everything the bible says that makes them special, then they become like anyone else. lol micky mouse logic.

 

[graceNpeace]

If the Bible is the only measure or standard of truth then it begs the question: Who's interpretation of the Bible should we follow? As there are as many interpretations of Scripture these days as there are protestant churches(about 30000).

Also the Bible says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth(1 Timothy 3:15), not the Bible.

RCC propaganda again I think....

That verse is not saying what you think it is!
The church is the result of that truth NOT its author!

Your "interpretation" of this verse just proves an unfortunate truth: In your world Scripture is just there to be manipulated to prove a point - this is called "eisegesis" - i.e. the reading into Scripture of a predetermined meaning.
Try "exegesis" for once - let the word of God tell you what it means! It is harder to do properly because it means you have to know Scripture well to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture!

If you knew Scripture well then you would know the violence the interpretation of 1 Tim 3:15 you gave does to the plain meaning of many other Scriptural texts.....

 

[Dino246]

If the Bible is the only measure or standard of truth then it begs the question: Who's interpretation of the Bible should we follow? As there are as many interpretations of Scripture these days as there are protestant churches(about 30000).

Also the Bible says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth(1 Timothy 3:15), not the Bible.

You need to check your sources. The "30,000 protestant churches" is an extrapolation of an exaggeration.

Interesting that you quote Scripture to tell us that Scripture is not the foundation of truth. By the way, Scripture doesn't say "Church" (as in RCC); it says "church" (as in household of God). Further, the sense of the verse is not that the church is the "source of truth".

 

[Deade]

QUEEN OF HEAVEN

Jer. 7:17-19 “Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. Do they provoke me to anger? Saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?”

Jer. 44:17-19: “But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the teach queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine. And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?”

Jer. 44:25: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.”

 

[mcubed]

but the fact is Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and that is what makes her special. "beyond that" she is no one special, well of course she is not, when you remove what makes her special. you can do this with anyone in the bible, remove everything the bible says that makes them special, then they become like anyone else. lol micky mouse logic.

That does not make sense! Can G-d use anyone for His own purpose? Does He not do it today? What is Mickey Mouse logic? Se is NOT special; she is a woman that gave birth!!!!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

If the Bible is the only measure or standard of truth then it begs the question: Who's interpretation of the Bible should we follow? As there are as many interpretations of Scripture these days as there are protestant churches(about 30000).

Also the Bible says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth(1 Timothy 3:15), not the Bible.

Well isn't that clever...?
When you couldn't get agreement that a doctrine not found in the bible can still be the truth, you tried to move on to your next tactic, just completely dropping your first one.

But it's your last sentence that is going to get you in the most trouble - especially the last three words of it.

 

[graceNpeace]

Well isn't that clever...?
When you couldn't get agreement that a doctrine not found in the bible can still be the truth, you tried to move on to your next tactic, just completely dropping your first one.

But it's your last sentence that is going to get you in the most trouble - especially the last three words of it.

A couple of us have already nailed that one down!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes, I see. I was to his post but still had a few posts before I got to the end of the thread.

 

[FlSnookman7]

Since the Word says that Jesus went through all the human emotions I think we should consider how we feel about our own mothers. Was mary anything more than human? I think not. Should we pray to her? Again, I do not think we should. That said, I am a very easy going guy these days but you still want to watch how you talk about my mom, especially in my presence.

 

[graceNpeace]

Since the Word says that Jesus went through all the human emotions I think we should consider how we feel about our own mothers. Was mary anything more than human? I think not. Should we pray to her? Again, I do not think we should. That said, I am a very easy going guy these days but you still want to watch how you talk about my mom, especially in my presence.

No one as far as I can see is disrespecting Mary!
Not agreeing with the RCC doctrines regarding Mary is not quite the same thing!

IMHO, of course, the best way to respect Mary is to NOT ascribe to her characteristics that are not true...

 

[mcubed]

Since the Word says that Jesus went through all the human emotions I think we should consider how we feel about our own mothers. Was mary anything more than human? I think not. Should we pray to her? Again, I do not think we should. That said, I am a very easy going guy these days but you still want to watch how you talk about my mom, especially in my presence.

I honestly do not understand the correlation.
How is Miriam your "mom" and not Eve?... If we go there....

 

[posthuman]

Catholics have a cult of Mary going on.

Yes the whole 'queen of heaven' thing is a blasphemous appellation of Ashera ((aka Ishtar or Easter)) who was the pagan wife of the idol Ba'al.

There is no 'queen of heaven' - if in any sense at all it would be the wife of the King of heaven, Jesus Christ, namely, the bride of the Lamb, the church. Or the nation Israel, the estranged wife of Jehovah. But this IMHO is pushing towards blasphemy itself too, and certainly not displaying the humility of spirit that we ought to have, the same mind of Christ, who set His glory aside.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If the Bible is the only measure or standard of truth then it begs the question: Who's interpretation of the Bible should we follow?

Obviously not that of the RCC (or even the EOC) since most of their teachings are in error.

How about allowing the Bible to interpret itself? So get hold of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance -- which lists absolutely every word in the King James Bible -- and search for "Mother of God". If it is missing then the Bible has interpreted itself. There is no such term.

Also while you are searching "mother" note the verses (if any) where Jesus actually calls Mary "mother". Then go to "woman" and see how many times Jesus addressed Mary as "woman".

There must have been a very good Divine reason why Jesus is never recorded as addressing his mother as "mother" but always as "woman". This goes back to Genesis 3:15, and also anticipates Galatians 4:4. Christ is "the seed of the woman".

And I will put enmity between thee [Satan] and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law...

 

[dallasb78]

RCC propaganda again I think....

That verse is not saying what you think it is!
The church is the result of that truth NOT its author!

Your "interpretation" of this verse just proves an unfortunate truth: In your world Scripture is just there to be manipulated to prove a point - this is called "eisegesis" - i.e. the reading into Scripture of a predetermined meaning.
Try "exegesis" for once - let the word of God tell you what it means! It is harder to do properly because it means you have to know Scripture well to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture!

If you knew Scripture well then you would know the violence the interpretation of 1 Tim 3:15 you gave does to the plain meaning of many other Scriptural texts.....

This verse is saying exactly what it says: that the church is the foundation of truth. This isn't my interpretation but the interpretation of thousands of scholars throughout history and the interpretation of the Catholic Church. I'm not manipulating anything, the meaning of the verse is obvious.

Scripture cannot interpret Scripture because even though the Bible is without error, whoever is doing the reading cannot help but read into the verses what he or she wants. This goes for any protestant or catholic who is reading. Only those who are gifted by the Holy Spirit can properly interpret. And that is done by the magisterium of the Church. It is not a private interpretation.(2 Peter 1:20)

 

[LPT]

This verse is saying exactly what it says: that the church is the foundation of truth. This isn't my interpretation but the interpretation of thousands of scholars throughout history and the interpretation of the Catholic Church. I'm not manipulating anything, the meaning of the verse is obvious.

Scripture cannot interpret Scripture because even though the Bible is without error, whoever is doing the reading cannot help but read into the verses what he or she wants. This goes for any protestant or catholic who is reading. Only those who are gifted by the Holy Spirit can properly interpret. And that is done by the magisterium of the Church. It is not a private interpretation.(2 Peter 1:20)

Matt 22

29Jesus replied, “You are mistaken because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30In the resurrection, people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Instead, they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what God said to you: 32‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?’c He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

God has no wife/spouse in Heaven.

 

[dallasb78]

You need to check your sources. The "30,000 protestant churches" is an extrapolation of an exaggeration.

Interesting that you quote Scripture to tell us that Scripture is not the foundation of truth. By the way, Scripture doesn't say "Church" (as in RCC); it says "church" (as in household of God). Further, the sense of the verse is not that the church is the "source of truth".

Fair enough: According to ncregister.com there are 9000 official protestant denominations and 22000 independent denominations(not officially protestant but still do not accept the authority of the pope). That's 31000.

But my point still stands. They can't all be right on doctrine.

I quote Scripture because all Scripture is true. (2 Timothy 3:16-17) Also the Catholic Church confirms this:

“Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures” (CCC 107, quoting the Vatican II document Dei Verbum 11).

The Catholic Church and the household of God are one and the same.

St. Ignatius of Antioch(35AD-107AD):

Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8, J.R. Willis translation.

 

[dallasb78]

QUEEN OF HEAVEN

Jer. 7:17-19 “Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. Do they provoke me to anger? Saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?”

Jer. 44:17-19: “But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the teach queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine. And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?”

Jer. 44:25: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.”

Because there was a pagan goddess worshipped as "queen of heaven" doesn't mean there can't be an authentic "queen of heaven". By this logic we also shouldn't call Jesus the "Son of God" because the greek god Apollo was also called the "Son of God".

 

[dallasb78]

Well isn't that clever...?
When you couldn't get agreement that a doctrine not found in the bible can still be the truth, you tried to move on to your next tactic, just completely dropping your first one.

But it's your last sentence that is going to get you in the most trouble - especially the last three words of it.

While the Bible is without error, you will not find a verse that says it is the ONLY source of doctrinal Truth.

 

[Nehemiah6]

While the Bible is without error, you will not find a verse that says it is the ONLY source of doctrinal Truth.

What makes you say that? Do you not believe that Scripture is unique since all of it is God-breathed? Does not that fact in itself make it THE ONLY source of doctrinal truth?