Not By Works

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Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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How ironic that you'd step in here! :D

The passage is about false teachers who preach the law is necessary, that the faith is not enough, so they must add in works.
The Pharisees did not teach God's instructions as you preach. That is why they were called "False Preachers".

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

They had created their own Law as the Word which became Flesh clearly stated. This Law included their version of the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "Works of the Law" for remission of sins. It was this Law they "bewitched" the Galatians with. But we know that by these sacrificial "Works of the Law" is no man justified.

You know, the same things you teach. Thus the passage you are using to slam those who are justified by faith is actually exposing you and your teaching.
I never slammed anyone. I simply pointed out that the warnings the Word which became Flesh gave us, including the warnings about the "dragon" were about men who claimed Him as their Savior. I'm sorry if this stings you.
Wow. Talk about deception and not seeing the forest for the trees sir. Unreal.
Yet it is you who preach the insidious lie that the Pharisees were trying to teach people to keep God's Laws for salvation.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
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do you not believe in the power of the One who created us unto His works such that you feel some kind of need to present them as a "Law" that must be kept on threat of eternal damnation?

is He unable to bring us to do His will without the coercion of fear and terror?

doncha trust that He knows what He is doing when He creates us in Christ?

we should be acting on account of being filled with thankfulness and joy -- not browbeaten into servitude. a slave has to be ordered about and told how to behave, and he is cast out, beaten or even killed for disobedience; a son sees what his father does, and joins him in it -- and remains a son even when he does what is wrong.

so which did we receive, a spirit of fear or one that cries '
abba' ? :rolleyes:
and how did we receive this spirit?

"
not by works"
You have it all wrong Post. I am simply trusting in the Word which became Flesh enough to do as He says. You preach that His Word's are a burden and that they browbeat me and that by following the instructions of Christ I am doomed to a miserable life. This is a popular deception as the Story of Eve shows us.

But I look at the Instructions of the Word which became Flesh as my brother David; "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path."

I see God's instructions as a joy and a relief. No more do I rely on myself or the Pope, or some other imperfect man for instructions in righteousness. I have the Word which became Flesh in the person of Jesus. I need to look no further. He is the Author and Finisher of my faith.

"For Christ is the end (intent) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

A Faithful son hears the words of his father and heeds them. He may slip and fall from time to time. But in truth a Faithful son heeds his fathers instructions.

Regarding the "works" issue the Bible is clear. We all have works if we are alive. The scripture says we are to "repent from OUR Works" and "walk in" the "works" Jesus, the Word which became Flesh, created for man from the foundation of the world.

The Word which became Flesh has been very clear about this as His Word's below show us.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD (Jesus), Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

And again;

Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matt. 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

And again;

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

So the "not by works" means "not by mans works" lest "MAN" should boast.

Because; "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

No a popular sentiment among the "Many" who come in Christ's Name, but it's the teaching of the Bible all the same.
 
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You have to prove your faith to GOD/JESUS by works? if you believe this you are way off base....

THEREFORE we conclude a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH WITHOUT WORKS <----surly you can read and understand this.

THE JUST shall live by FAITH <----nothing said of works
 

Endoscopy

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The words you posted are true, your interpretation of those words are what is lacking.
That has been the problem in the church from the very begining. It is why the Apostles Creed was created. It defines the essentials of the faith. Outside of that the early elders decided we just have to agree to disagree with our fellow Christians.

This is the reason for all of the different denominations.
 
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You seem to be delibertly obtuse. Not loss of salvation but salvation to start with. Remember Jesus is quoted as saying at judgement to those who proclaim they believed and did works that He never knew them!!!
AND you seem to deliberately reject the truth that states we are saved by faith WITHOUT WORKS and then say YOU HAVE TO PROVE YOUR FAITH TO GOD who does not LOOK ON THE OUTSIDE....

NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have DONE, but according to his mercy has he SAVED US (past tense)

And why do you suppose he said what he said...let us evaluate..

a. They believed they knew him
b. They called him LORD
c. THEY believed he KNEW THEM
d. THEY believed their WORKS IN HIS NAME were part of the equation
e. THEY believed their works in his name EARNED them the right to enter

SAME thing you and your working for pals teach and believe!
 
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I have been mulling over why I disagree with your Bible only attitude It is because you reject the hard earned wisdom of fellow Christians who have studied the Bible and lived through struggles in life trying to walk in the narrow path. Paul wrote about his struggles with the law of sin that lived in him and ALL OF US. We gain wisdom from living life. The older we get the more hard earned wisdom we obtain learned by both doing right and the painful failing to do right. This is the wisdom you reject.
The above does not prove my stance in error....and I have no problem in accepting wisdom from a man when he is correct....at the end of the day the opinions of men, experience and books written by men not inspired is not the rule of faith and practice that we are to follow.....THE BIBLE is the final authority on EVERYTHING......and even PETER referencing the transfiguration on the mount said...WE HAVE A MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY.......sorry....I will always make my stand on the bible and bible alone.....and the ONLY time I WILL receive the words of men outside of the bible is if they JIVE with what I already understand from the scriptures......end of story!
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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AND you seem to deliberately reject the truth that states we are saved by faith WITHOUT WORKS and then say YOU HAVE TO PROVE YOUR FAITH TO GOD who does not LOOK ON THE OUTSIDE....

NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have DONE, but according to his mercy has he SAVED US (past tense)

And why do you suppose he said what he said...let us evaluate..

a. They believed they knew him
b. They called him LORD
c. THEY believed he KNEW THEM
d. THEY believed their WORKS IN HIS NAME were part of the equation
e. THEY believed their works in his name EARNED them the right to enter

SAME thing you and your working for pals teach and believe!
You leave out the fact that the Bible says faith without works is dead.
Therefore works proves the valid faith.
Works does not save them but just validates that the grace in faith is true faith.
 
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You leave out the fact that the Bible says faith without works is dead.
Therefore works proves the valid faith.
Works does not save them but just validates that the grace in faith is true faith.
Believe what you will...the works are not to prove faith before GOD....end of story....nor do they keep one saved, help one get salvation, maintain salvation and or top off salvation....LIKE I SAID...you believe the same thing the plenteous in number believe and when you stand before the LORD go ahead and tell him that your works in his name prove that you are saved and have the right to enter.....

Therefore we conclude that a MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS <---if you cannot see this and understand this then it is due to your own unwillingness to acknowledge the context of Romans as well as JAMES
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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AND you seem to deliberately reject the truth that states we are saved by faith WITHOUT WORKS and then say YOU HAVE TO PROVE YOUR FAITH TO GOD who does not LOOK ON THE OUTSIDE....

NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have DONE, but according to his mercy has he SAVED US (past tense)

And why do you suppose he said what he said...let us evaluate..

a. They believed they knew him
b. They called him LORD
c. THEY believed he KNEW THEM
d. THEY believed their WORKS IN HIS NAME were part of the equation
e. THEY believed their works in his name EARNED them the right to enter

SAME thing you and your working for pals teach and believe!
You leave out the fact that the Bible says faith without works is dead.
Therefore works proves the valid faith.
Works does not save them but just validates that the grace in faith is true faith.

James 2 NIV

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
 
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You leave out the fact that the Bible says faith without works is dead.
Therefore works proves the valid faith.
Works does not save them but just validates that the grace in faith is true faith.

James 2 NIV

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
So what....Paul wrote 11-13 more books than James and states that a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH without works.....
 

Endoscopy

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Oct 13, 2017
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So what....Paul wrote 11-13 more books than James and states that a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH without works.....
So you are saying that the number of books written means the more the person wrote the more accurate their words are.

Point out anywhere where the Bible contradicts what James said. Specific verses in context please. It is a item of faith that the Bible never contradicts itself. You seem to be claiming this has happened to James. Proof required to prove this!! Book, chapter and verses required!!!
 

Endoscopy

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Oct 13, 2017
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Addendum
We are saved by grace through faith.
Works doesn't save us.
When a person accepts Jesus as their savior they are saved. (grace through faith)
The result is to generate works.
Thus as James wrote faith without works is dead.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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So what....Paul wrote 11-13 more books than James and states that a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH without works.....
Good morning decon, another point worthy of James ch2 is, you cannot build a "doctrine" from a "single verse", which is basically the same thing you are saying, the James ch 2 people are barking up the wrong tree...:)
 
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So you are saying that the number of books written means the more the person wrote the more accurate their words are.

Point out anywhere where the Bible contradicts what James said. Specific verses in context please. It is a item of faith that the Bible never contradicts itself. You seem to be claiming this has happened to James. Proof required to prove this!! Book, chapter and verses required!!!
No..I am saying you need to wrap your head around context because you are elevating JAMES above the context of what James is saying.....while ignoring what PAUL wrote and us being JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS.......
 
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Good morning decon, another point worthy of James ch2 is, you cannot build a "doctrine" from a "single verse", which is basically the same thing you are saying, the James ch 2 people are barking up the wrong tree...:)
AMEN.......the context of James is flat glossed over by everyone that wish to make works necessary for salvation while ignoring the fact that salvation/justification by faith ALONE is what places one into the vine, that salvation is ETERNALLY GIVEN before one micro gram of works, fruit or service is ever done....and the context of JAMES is not about GOD and us being justified before GOD...it is ABOUT MEN and their ability to SEE the INVISIBLE, INWARD faith that has ALREADY SAVED A MAN ETERNALLY.....
 

Endoscopy

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Oct 13, 2017
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Good morning decon, another point worthy of James ch2 is, you cannot build a "doctrine" from a "single verse", which is basically the same thing you are saying, the James ch 2 people are barking up the wrong tree...:)
As I requested give the other texts that contradict this statement of James. Keep in mind that he claims we are saved by grace through faith. What he adds is faith without works is dead faith. Thinking about it logically and seeing newcomers to Christianity Christians have a desire to be helping others by spreading the word and aiding others physically and spiritualy. I have witnessed this in action over the years. New believers have that fire more than Christians who have been saved a long time before. This is the works. Without that desire and actions it becomes clear that it is words only and not a real faith. This is faith without works that denies a true faith. At 73 and saved when I was 6 and now disabled my works are much diminished. I use the internet now instead of personal contact.
 
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I find it interesting that you say the bolded below....not the kind that at 73 and SAVED at 6.......................that speaks volumes.....


The kind that at 73 and baptized at 6 and studied the Bible and taken classes in church as first a deacon and later an elder. Part of the studies covered the early church and understood divisions over theological issues started very early. In the 200s the Roman Creed was created and was upgraded to the Apostles Creed in 312 to define who is and isn't a Christian This was created to seperate heretical beliefs from Christian beliefs. This concept was to allow all issues outside this to be agreed to disagree with other Christians.

There are legitimate differences of opinion about many theological issues. As an elder and deacon I have had to understand these differences of opinion. These differences are held by Bible believing Christians backing up their beliefs with the Bible. Having been through this I was forced to understand how and why these differences occur. Your steadfast condemnation of anything outside of your narrow view to me is very erroneous.
 

Endoscopy

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Oct 13, 2017
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AMEN.......the context of James is flat glossed over by everyone that wish to make works necessary for salvation while ignoring the fact that salvation/justification by faith ALONE is what places one into the vine, that salvation is ETERNALLY GIVEN before one micro gram of works, fruit or service is ever done....and the context of JAMES is not about GOD and us being justified before GOD...it is ABOUT MEN and their ability to SEE the INVISIBLE, INWARD faith that has ALREADY SAVED A MAN ETERNALLY.....
Point out where James said anything like that. He was pointing out the difference between true and false faith. Works is the evidence of true faith. No works is evidence of false faith. Thus as he said, "Faith without works is dead." It is a method of seeing a wolf in sheep's clothing. Jesus warned us about them and told us to watch out for them. This is a method of seeing them. As the saying goes, "Actions speek louder than words." It is how Presbyterian USA was taken over be secular ministers by 1932 as documented by Gary North in Crossed Fingers. The other 7 sister churches have become secular as well. I met a man after an invitational evening service and in the refreshment time he told me he heard the gospel message for the first time even though he was a lifelong Lutheran. This country has gone from being almost 100% Christians to 25% or less. The church has a major fallout problem. The root cause is they don't teach the youth in Sunday School that big bang evolution defies 5 scientific laws. Then when they get to college and the profesors teach big bang evolution as fact they believe them and eventually cease going to church.

Christian Ministries International is a multinational science based Christian organization at creation.com. They created a DVD about the fallout issue. It is a good place to find science based evidence about Genesis being factual and being a young earth. For example they point out the grand canyon proves the flood. There are lines showing deposits in layers and proving they were created at one time not over millions of years since there is no erosion in any of the layers. Also there is Carbon-14 in Diamonds. The half life of Carbon-14 would have it gone over millions of years. Also coal was created not that long ago because man made objects have been founded imbedded in it like a hammer and a bell.
 

TruthTalk

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Jul 17, 2017
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As I requested give the other texts that contradict this statement of James.
Are you serious, we have been giving you verse upon verse but you still will not believe. Okay here is one more for you from a different person but with the same belief... but hey like I said, If you had a 1000 verses you still will not believe. You must believe that Jesus paid the full price for your sin or you will die in your sin's. If you are working for your salvation you have fallen from grace. And this I say to you on "Resurrection Day", good grief man repent and believe the Gospel.

You cannot save yourself no matter how many good works you have, period, end of story.

What is a verse that you see taken out of context frequently? One verse we know that is in context says it all for those who have repented and trusted in Christ. Second Corinthians 5:21 says “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” If you have not trusted in Christ, then God sees you as having filthy rags and if you stand in your own righteousness before God someday, then you will die in your sins. No one is ever going to be good enough to save themselves. Trust God, repent from your sins, confess them to God, and then trust in the only name that can save you from the wrath of God…Jesus Christ. He is the one and only way to the Father (John 6:44) and there is no other way than through Jesus Christ (John 14:6).

Read more: https://www.whatchristianswanttokno...ses-often-taken-out-of-context/#ixzz5BR1tefe4
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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=graceNpeace;3517670]I apologise for incorrectly labelling you an SDA, if you are not!
Nonetheless, your comment about the Jesus Christ being your High Priest, yet claiming that the law is still operational just means that you are completely mixed up as to what covenant you are part of!

The New covenant is not the Sinaitic covenant!
The Sinaitic covenant cannot be separated from the Torah. The Sinaitic covenant is abrogated in the institution of the New covenant - all of it, lock, stock, and barrel!
I don't believe in the Catholic version of the "New Covenant". I believe in the Word which became Flesh. He teaches a different "new covenant" than the Pope, or you.

No offence intended, but your preaching that there is no difference between the Instructions the Word which became Flesh gave specifically to the Levites for the remission of sins, and the Instructions the Word which became Flesh gave to the rest of the people is simply untrue.

If you are placing yourself under a redundant covenant the least you could do is to fully observe its statutes!
Considering the Sinaitic covenant was a covenant between God and Israelites, and the only way to distinguish an Israelite from anyone else was physical circumcision, then perhaps you had better get yourself circumcised...
Then you need to consider how you are going to obey the sacrificial laws...
And so it goes, all told to 613 separate laws!
According to your preaching maybe circumcision was the outward sign. I don't think the Jews walked around showing the proof of their circumcision. But you are free to preach whatever your heart tells you. The Word which became Flesh says this;

Ex. 20:12 Moreover also I (The Word which became Flesh) gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I (The word which became Flesh) am the LORD that sanctify them.

So you preach Christ's Sign between Him and the Israelites was circumcision, but He teaches that His outward sing was the Sabbath He created for man. Since I believe in Him, I will go with His version over yours.

The Word which became Flesh said;

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I (The Word which became Flesh) will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

But you preach this "law" only condemns us and has been removed by this same Christ. If it has been removed because it is so bad, why does the Word which became Flesh need to write them on our hearts?

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I (The Word which became Flesh) will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

You preach that if the Christ writes His Laws on my heart, I must also continue to rely on the blood of goats for remission of sins. Yet the Word which became Flesh in the person of Jesus says there will come a time when the Priesthood has changed. That no longer do we go to the Levite Priest with a turtle dove, for the Christ Himself will forgive our sins with His own Blood.

This is confirmed in the New Testament.

Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?


12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

You preach the Word which became Flesh changed the definition of sin or changed the instructions He gave to Abraham and Moses. But the Bible teaches the only thing that changed was the Priesthood. It's in your Bible.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

So yes, there is a New Covenant that changed 2 things.

#1. How the instructions of the Word which became Flesh are administered. No more Levite Priests to go to in order to hear the Word, the Christ shall write them on the hearts of his People.



#2. How sins are forgiven. No more Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "Works of the Law" that the Jews "bewitched" the Galatians with. Jesus forgives us with His own Blood.


For this to happen the Law needed to change so as to let someone other than a Levite perform the duties of the Priesthood. Jesus was from the tribe of Judah. It is was against the Law for any one other than a Levite to hold the "Priesthood" position. And the Word which became Flesh foretold of this in Jer. 31.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I (The Word which became Flesh) will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: "of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood"






As it stands you are following a syncretic mess from two different and mutually exclusive covenants....
The Sinaitic covenant demands obedience to the laws of the Torah!
The New covenant offers justification by grace through faith in Jesus Christ - nothing more and nothing less!
Any legal demands of the Torah are done away with through the cross....
The Priesthood has changed, yes, no more sacrificial Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for justification of sins. The word which became Flesh takes away our past sins with His own Blood, nothing more, nothing less. But then you add to His Covenant by saying not only did the Priesthood change, but the so did everything else. This is a flase teaching if one uses the bible as a guide.





The Word which became Flesh teaches just the opposite.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

He hasn't come back yet so "all" has obviously not been fulfilled.







There is no doubt that the New covenant has ethical demands, nine of the ten commandments (with the exception of the Sabbath) for example are confirmed as part of the New covenant. However, a much higher ethic is actually demanded, which is actually a law of love summed up in Rom 13:10 and Gal 5:13-14, but spelled out in no uncertain terms in Gal 5:16-23.
Gal 5:23 even says this: "Against such there is no law."!
You are following the law that can only have one effect for you - condemn you utterly and irrevocably...
Yet in Jesus Christ there is justification by grace through faith, salvation, and liberty!
The message you promote is the same message the serpent gave to Eve. That by rejecting the Instructions of the Word which became Flesh I will be freed from a God that wants to hold me back, imprison me and burden me with 613 laws. A God that doesn't have my best interest at heart. But the serpent does?

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof,(disobey His Instructions) then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


Religious tradition is a powerful force. Through it the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time murdered the most perfect human being ever. By the Grace of God I have escaped the deceit that is mainstream preaching. But I still remember how difficult it was 25 years ago. There is a cost to following the Word which became Flesh. But it is worth it. My hope is that you might privately consider the warning of the Jesus of the Bible and examine, not just the verses you can use to justify your religious traditions, but ALL the Word's of the Word which became Flesh.
 
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