Are women allowed to Preach?

[lightbearer]

Sometimes use words...would be a paraphrase of what I said and remembered the quote to be...so...whassup...??

Is this to me Stunnedbygrace?

If so I am not sure what you are getting at?

Are you defining paraphrase?

Are you insulted by something?

If so sorry.

By the way; the way you quoted it is the way I had heard it. And when I looked it up again to make sure I was not misleading you; it is the way it came up in the search.

 

[Mem]

Paraphrase? That would be a stretch from what I understand. Care to post your findings?

Following his studies at hebrew4christians.com, which offers a site search engine. I remembered the author referencing this phrase, and using the search feature, found him attributing it to Francis of Assisi.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Is this to me Stunnedbygrace?

If so I am not sure what you are getting at?

Are you defining paraphrase?

Are you insulted by something?

If so sorry.

By the way; the way you quoted it is the way I had heard it. And when I looked it up again to make sure I was not misleading you; it is the way it came up in the search.

No, I was not offended!

I was saying that meme said this: I typed in a search for "sometimes use words" and what was spit out in my search was this: a paraphrase of a quote often attributed to St Francis.

So when you said: paraphrase?? Care to share your findings? - I was confused as to what you didn't understand in what she said...

She was just adding to the conversation that she discovered it was attributed to St. Francis. The search told her that "sometimes use words" was a paraphrase of etc., etc.

Um...not insulted, more puzzled at your reply to her!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

No, I was not offended!

I was saying that meme said this: I typed in a search for "sometimes use words" and what was spit out in my search was this: a paraphrase of a quote often attributed to St Francis.

So when you said: paraphrase?? Care to share your findings? - I was confused as to what you didn't understand in what she said...

She was just adding to the conversation that she discovered it was attributed to St. Francis. The search told her that "sometimes use words" was a paraphrase of etc., etc.

Um...not insulted, more puzzled at your reply to her!

So...I'll just throw a hardboiled egg at you and we'll be done with it. Or if you prefer a deviled egg, I'll throw that at you. Whichever you prefer. Sorry, the beans aren't ready yet.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And mem, I'm sorry I accidentally called you a meme in my post.

 

[Dino246]

Feminism does not demand more respect from a godly man, it demands less.

Let's not bring feminism into this. While early feminism may have had some legitimate goals such as suffrage, modern feminism is deeply corrupt, closed-minded, and has nothing to do with Christianity at all, let alone with female preachers.

 

[proverbs35]

On this Resurrection Sunday, 4/1/18, it's so fitting that Jesus appeared to women first, after he rose from the dead. Jesus gave the women a message, an instruction to give to his 11 disciples, "Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.” Matthew 28:10

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. Matthew 28:16

I'm so glad that the disciples listened to the women and went to Galilee to meet with Jesus. Jesus gave the women a message, an instruction for the men.

 

[Mo0448]

You might want to remove those shades and actually "read" what the Bible says. Although God declares man and woman "equal" in their value to Him and He declares His love for them to be "equal", He certainly does not issue them equal roles within society. God specifically issues much more authority to the man and to the husband in many, many verses. As a man, who is responsible for carrying out some of that authority, you probably should stop coddling unto women and begin to exercise the proper authority given unto you by God. I can show you verse after verse where God states men are to rule over women as a consequence to what happened in the Garden of Eden. You cannot show me one single verse within the Bible that states women should rule over man. Now women today believe any man who actually attempts to go by any of this is greatly disrespecting them, but that is entirely false thinking. God gave the commandments and He did not think any less of a woman, only that her role was to be different. So, any man who believes in carrying on those commands of God can also very easily not think any less of a woman. It is not about who is most important. It is not about who is most valuable. Neither are most important, neither are most valuable, but someone must lead and God chose that to be the man. We can all sit here and argue over this for 1000 years and that is never going to change. There are so many verses in the Bible which reflect this very thing, I believe the ladies here have to know this. I believe they just like to prod the man to see how high they can get him to jump. Really I don't think it is wise for a woman to tempt a man like that, especially a man that does already have plenty of respect for them and their God given role. When they do that, the result they are likely to get is much more likely to be a loss of some of that respect rather than any gain they might be looking for. Feminism does not demand more respect from a godly man, it demands less.

You didn't actually get to the root of the question or any of the comments I made you just circled around them and began to criticize what I had to say and did not provide any suggestions as to why implying a woman shouldn't be allowed to preach or lead is wrong.

God specifically issues much more authority to the man and to the husband in many, many verses. As a man, who is responsible for carrying out some of that authority, you probably should stop coddling unto women and begin to exercise the proper authority given unto you by God. I can show you verse after verse where God states men are to rule over women as a consequence to what happened in the Garden of Eden. You cannot show me one single verse within the Bible that states women should rule over man.

I never stated I say a woman should rule over a man? No where in my statement did I make that assertion. I did say however and I still firmly believe that there isn't a problem with a woman preaching or "leading" anything in church for that matter. This isn't coddling or enabling or any of that nonsense you so self-righteously declared. You're telling me that Deborah one of the Judges in the old testament (Judges 4 & 5) who was actually a prophet of God and the delegated his Will for the people she was a woman...how's that possible though? I mean she's a woman...if we look at it from your perspective. The problem here is very "traditional" and/or old fashioned individuals refuse to believe that God could use a woman to lead or to take charge in anything...which is ridiculous...this has nothing to do with who has authority, This has to do with God's ability to use anyone, and to suggest a woman isn't worthy to be used by God or to lead is implying that God shows favoritism to the male sex which as much as there are roles in any marriage or household is absolutely ridiculous.


Suggesting that I am "coddling" to women...and I need exercise my authority over them? I'm sorry brother but this isn't the dark ages where a woman needs to ask for permission to speak or isn't allowed to talk at all...if you want that I believe that look no further than the middle east...where women can't do much of anything, go to school, drive, read, speak against her husband if he's done anything to her...which is disturbing.

The problem is the society of that time; the culture. As I stated feel free research a history book and you'll see that Women were second class citizens in that time. Their word was not admissible in court, they were considered inferior. Many of the statements in the new testament came from culture; Paul wrote based on culture. In Corinthians where it says its a shame for a woman to speak in the Church. Think about that for a second...if sa woman speaks in a church would you go to scold her as she is inferior to you and does not have that right?! Absolutely not! However in a culture and a time where a woman is a second class citizen, has no right to vote, or speak her mind, if she speaks in church it is downright "shameful".

Now my final question since we are being so particular about scripture loyaldisciple, are you married? If so, does your wife cut her hair ? Did you know in the New Testament it says that it's shameful for a woman to cut her hair...just saying...I'm not trying to start an argument brother I'm just implying it is ridiculous to pick and choose scripture to suggest women shouldn't be allowed to preach or lead anything and yet ignore all the other statements.

This is all I'm going to say in this thread it will go on for 100 years and its silly no one has that much time on their hands.

Happy Easter Everyone God Bless!

 

[Mem]

And mem, I'm sorry I accidentally called you a meme in my post.

There are times this might be appropos, for example, although you will find memes of it, i'd be interested to see any example of the phrase online before I first wrote, "I'ma kill you 'til you die to death."

But then there's also the just as relevant backstory of my nick, Mem, the same by which Anna is referred to as in Anna and the King and also The King and I.

[video=youtube;LvXqNaXBPSA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvXqNaXBPSA[/video]

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

You cannot show me one single verse within the Bible that states women should rule over man.

This is a control issue on your part. Some sort of fear of losing control. The women here are not arguing that we should RULE OVER men. Perhaps I can't speak for everyone but I have no desire to rule over or dominate men, so I am not looking for a Bible verse to back up that position. Using the brain God gave me doesn't make me a threat to you or the Pastor of my church.

 

[graceNpeace]

This is a control issue on your part. Some sort of fear of losing control. The women here are not arguing that we should RULE OVER men. Perhaps I can't speak for everyone but I have no desire to rule over or dominate men, so I am not looking for a Bible verse to back up that position. Using the brain God gave me doesn't make me a threat to you or the Pastor of my church.

Correct!
You have identified his straw-man.....

 

[loyaldisciple]

Really? See below-your own highlighted text.


Asking a question and learning is not giving a sermon. Silence was asked for during learning. This isn't about a woman doing a sermon/teaching. This was likely to have more to do with a problem arising from the segregation of the sexes as has been highlighted. And possibly the types of places used for church gatherings in the first century. These days most Pastors and teachers speak through a microphone which makes it very difficult for the flow of a teaching to be disrupted.

Don't forget Lucy, those verses I posted regarding women being completely silent in the church were the words of God and the Bible. They were not my words. Personally I probably should not do this, but I would bend that just a bit to allow for a woman to whisper someone sitting beside her a question in church. I am also not opposed to women singing in the choir in church. I just will not bend God's word so much as to agree that a woman should be a minister in the church. I believe that to be far worse bending of His word than the other and I won't go that far.

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Joel 2:28-29, “And after this it shall be that I pour out My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men dream dreams, your young men see visions. And also on the male servants and on the female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days.”[/FONT]


These are all female prophets;


Micah 6:4, "for I brought you up from the land of Mitsrayim, and I ransomed you from the house of bondage. And I sent Mosheh, Aharon, and Miryam before you."

Judges 4:4, "And Deḇorah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappiḏoth, was ruling Yisra’ĕl at that time."

2 Kings 22:14, "Then Ḥilqiyahu the priest, and Aḥiqam, and Aḵbor, and Shaphan, and Asayah went to Ḥuldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum son of Tiqwah, son of Ḥarḥas, keeper of the wardrobe. Now she was dwelling in Yerushalayim in the Second Quarter. And they spoke with her.

Nehemiah 6:14, "My Elohim, remember Toḇiyah and Sanballat, according to these works of theirs, and the prophetess No‛aḏyah and the rest of the prophets who would have made me afraid."

Isaiah 8:3, "And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. And יהוה said to me, “Call his name Mahĕr-Shalal-Ḥash-Baz;"

Luke 2:36, "And there was Ḥannah, a prophetess, a daughter of Penu’ĕl, of the tribe of Ashĕr. She was advanced in years, and had lived with a husband seven years from her maidenhood,"

Acts 21:8-9, "And on the next day we left and came to Caesarea, and went into the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. Now this one had four maiden daughters who prophesied."


Yet Paul says “it is improper for women to speak in an assembly”So how were these women able to speak prophecies of Yah? Some say because it wasn’t in a church. However they can speak prophecies to some of the most important people of Yah on earth? And what makes a assembly or church? Is it a 501c3 agreement with a government? Or is it of Yah? Seems Yah allowed these women to speak His words.


1 Corinthians 14:34, “Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for they are not allowed to speak, but let them subject themselves, as the Law also says*. and if they wish to learn whatever, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in an assembly.”


*Except the Law does not say that.

 

[loyaldisciple]

You didn't actually get to the root of the question or any of the comments I made you just circled around them and began to criticize what I had to say and did not provide any suggestions as to why implying a woman shouldn't be allowed to preach or lead is wrong.



I never stated I say a woman should rule over a man? No where in my statement did I make that assertion. I did say however and I still firmly believe that there isn't a problem with a woman preaching or "leading" anything in church for that matter. This isn't coddling or enabling or any of that nonsense you so self-righteously declared. You're telling me that Deborah one of the Judges in the old testament (Judges 4 & 5) who was actually a prophet of God and the delegated his Will for the people she was a woman...how's that possible though? I mean she's a woman...if we look at it from your perspective. The problem here is very "traditional" and/or old fashioned individuals refuse to believe that God could use a woman to lead or to take charge in anything...which is ridiculous...this has nothing to do with who has authority, This has to do with God's ability to use anyone, and to suggest a woman isn't worthy to be used by God or to lead is implying that God shows favoritism to the male sex which as much as there are roles in any marriage or household is absolutely ridiculous.


Suggesting that I am "coddling" to women...and I need exercise my authority over them? I'm sorry brother but this isn't the dark ages where a woman needs to ask for permission to speak or isn't allowed to talk at all...if you want that I believe that look no further than the middle east...where women can't do much of anything, go to school, drive, read, speak against her husband if he's done anything to her...which is disturbing.

The problem is the society of that time; the culture. As I stated feel free research a history book and you'll see that Women were second class citizens in that time. Their word was not admissible in court, they were considered inferior. Many of the statements in the new testament came from culture; Paul wrote based on culture. In Corinthians where it says its a shame for a woman to speak in the Church. Think about that for a second...if sa woman speaks in a church would you go to scold her as she is inferior to you and does not have that right?! Absolutely not! However in a culture and a time where a woman is a second class citizen, has no right to vote, or speak her mind, if she speaks in church it is downright "shameful".

Now my final question since we are being so particular about scripture loyaldisciple, are you married? If so, does your wife cut her hair ? Did you know in the New Testament it says that it's shameful for a woman to cut her hair...just saying...I'm not trying to start an argument brother I'm just implying it is ridiculous to pick and choose scripture to suggest women shouldn't be allowed to preach or lead anything and yet ignore all the other statements.

This is all I'm going to say in this thread it will go on for 100 years and its silly no one has that much time on their hands.

Happy Easter Everyone God Bless!

What do you mean "I didn't give a reason why women shouldn't preach in the church" ? If you read this thread, you will see that I gave the very most "important reason" why a woman should not preach in a church. Those were the actual verses found in the Bible.

 

[loyaldisciple]

This is a control issue on your part. Some sort of fear of losing control. The women here are not arguing that we should RULE OVER men. Perhaps I can't speak for everyone but I have no desire to rule over or dominate men, so I am not looking for a Bible verse to back up that position. Using the brain God gave me doesn't make me a threat to you or the Pastor of my church.

Well Lucy, I never once said that you were looking to control any men. I'm not looking to control any of you women here either. I just gave you the verses of the Bible that say a woman is not be a minister. I am not attempting to jump through the screen and "make" you young ladies go by anything, I just gave you the truth of what the Bible says.

 

[loyaldisciple]

Joel 2:28-29, “And after this it shall be that I pour out My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men dream dreams, your young men see visions. And also on the male servants and on the female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days.”


These are all female prophets;


Micah 6:4, "for I brought you up from the land of Mitsrayim, and I ransomed you from the house of bondage. And I sent Mosheh, Aharon, and Miryam before you."

Judges 4:4, "And Deḇorah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappiḏoth, was ruling Yisra’ĕl at that time."

2 Kings 22:14, "Then Ḥilqiyahu the priest, and Aḥiqam, and Aḵbor, and Shaphan, and Asayah went to Ḥuldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum son of Tiqwah, son of Ḥarḥas, keeper of the wardrobe. Now she was dwelling in Yerushalayim in the Second Quarter. And they spoke with her.

Nehemiah 6:14, "My Elohim, remember Toḇiyah and Sanballat, according to these works of theirs, and the prophetess No‛aḏyah and the rest of the prophets who would have made me afraid."

Isaiah 8:3, "And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. And יהוה said to me, “Call his name Mahĕr-Shalal-Ḥash-Baz;"

Luke 2:36, "And there was Ḥannah, a prophetess, a daughter of Penu’ĕl, of the tribe of Ashĕr. She was advanced in years, and had lived with a husband seven years from her maidenhood,"

Acts 21:8-9, "And on the next day we left and came to Caesarea, and went into the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. Now this one had four maiden daughters who prophesied."


Yet Paul says “it is improper for women to speak in an assembly”So how were these women able to speak prophecies of Yah? Some say because it wasn’t in a church. However they can speak prophecies to some of the most important people of Yah on earth? And what makes a assembly or church? Is it a 501c3 agreement with a government? Or is it of Yah? Seems Yah allowed these women to speak His words.


1 Corinthians 14:34, “Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for they are not allowed to speak, but let them subject themselves, as the Law also says*. and if they wish to learn whatever, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in an assembly.”


*Except the Law does not say that.

All that typing to be wrong. There is a difference between "prophesy" and being a minister inside of a church. That is what makes your entire post irrelevant. I never said a woman could not spread the word of God and Paul didn't say that either. He is talking about being a preacher in the church, and that is what I'm discussing as well. When you divert from that, you are missing the entire point.

 

[Shamah]

All that typing to be wrong. There is a difference between "prophesy" and being a minister inside of a church. That is what makes your entire post irrelevant. I never said a woman could not spread the word of God and Paul didn't say that either. He is talking about being a preacher in the church, and that is what I'm discussing as well. When you divert from that, you are missing the entire point.

Joel 2:28-29, “And after this it shall be that I pour out My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men dream dreams, your young men see visions. And also on the male servants and on the female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days.”

 

[Nehemiah6]

What do you mean "I didn't give a reason why women shouldn't preach in the church" ? If you read this thread, you will see that I gave the very most "important reason" why a woman should not preach in a church. Those were the actual verses found in the Bible.

You and I (and others who present the Word in this context) will be told that those were just Paul's mysogynistic opinions which should be disregarded by enlightened women today. Oh, and don't forget that the *cultural norms* of those days are no longer valid. And never forget that women are smarter than men regardless of anything that Paul says. Oh, and don't forget Blondie and Dagwood either, since they represent the norm:

Blondie's marriage marked the beginning of a change in her personality. From that point forward, she gradually assumed her position as the sensible head of the Bumstead household. And Dagwood, who previously had been cast in the role of straight man to Blondie's comic antics, took over as the comic strip's clown

 

[Shamah]

Joel 2:28-29, “And after this it shall be that I pour out My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men dream dreams, your young men see visions. And also on the male servants and on the female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days.”


These are all female prophets;


Micah 6:4, "for I brought you up from the land of Mitsrayim, and I ransomed you from the house of bondage. And I sent Mosheh, Aharon, and Miryam before you."

Judges 4:4, "And Deḇorah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappiḏoth, was ruling Yisra’ĕl at that time."

2 Kings 22:14, "Then Ḥilqiyahu the priest, and Aḥiqam, and Aḵbor, and Shaphan, and Asayah went to Ḥuldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum son of Tiqwah, son of Ḥarḥas, keeper of the wardrobe. Now she was dwelling in Yerushalayim in the Second Quarter. And they spoke with her.

Nehemiah 6:14, "My Elohim, remember Toḇiyah and Sanballat, according to these works of theirs, and the prophetess No‛aḏyah and the rest of the prophets who would have made me afraid."

Isaiah 8:3, "And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. And יהוה said to me, “Call his name Mahĕr-Shalal-Ḥash-Baz;"

Luke 2:36, "And there was Ḥannah, a prophetess, a daughter of Penu’ĕl, of the tribe of Ashĕr. She was advanced in years, and had lived with a husband seven years from her maidenhood,"

Acts 21:8-9, "And on the next day we left and came to Caesarea, and went into the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. Now this one had four maiden daughters who prophesied."


Yet Paul says “it is improper for women to speak in an assembly”So how were these women able to speak prophecies of Yah? Some say because it wasn’t in a church. However they can speak prophecies to some of the most important people of Yah on earth? And what makes a assembly or church? Is it a 501c3 agreement with a government? Or is it of Yah? Seems Yah allowed these women to speak His words.


1 Corinthians 14:34, “Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for they are not allowed to speak, but let them subject themselves, as the Law also says*. and if they wish to learn whatever, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in an assembly.”


*Except the Law does not say that.

All that typing to be wrong. There is a difference between "prophesy" and being a minister inside of a church. That is what makes your entire post irrelevant. I never said a woman could not spread the word of God and Paul didn't say that either. He is talking about being a preacher in the church, and that is what I'm discussing as well. When you divert from that, you are missing the entire point.

your funny.

So a prophet oe not preach the word of YHWH?

No actually they preach the words directly out of the mouth of YHWH...

SO tell me this since you say IM wrong... Where in the Law does it say this?

1 Corinthians 14:34, “Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for they are not allowed to speak, but let them subject themselves, as the Law also says*. and if they wish to learn whatever, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in an assembly.”


*Except the Law does not say that.

You should be able to find it since Paul clearly states "as the Law also says"

Ill wait.

 

[loyaldisciple]

your funny.

So a prophet oe not preach the word of YHWH?

No actually they preach the words directly out of the mouth of YHWH...

SO tell me this since you say IM wrong... Where in the Law does it say this?

1 Corinthians 14:34, “Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for they are not allowed to speak, but let them subject themselves, as the Law also says*. and if they wish to learn whatever, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in an assembly.”


*Except the Law does not say that.

You should be able to find it since Paul clearly states "as the Law also says"

Ill wait.

You're right, I can find it very easily in the Law where it says for women to "subject" themselves. Be glad to show it to you as you requested.

Titus 2:5 [SUP]5[/SUP]to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

1 Timothy 2:11-15 [SUP]11[/SUP]A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. [SUP]12[/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. [SUP]13[/SUP]For Adam was formed first, then Eve. [SUP]14[/SUP]And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. [SUP]15[/SUP]But women will be saved through childbearing-if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Submission is the same as subjecting

Ephesians 5:22 [SUP]22[/SUP]Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the LORD.

Again submitting is the same as subjecting

Is that enough for you ? If not, I'm sure I can find several other verses to add. It is within the Bible numerous times.