Are women allowed to Preach?

[7seasrekeyed]

This thread went from 0 to 100 quickly lol.

I’ve got nothing but love for you all.

Blessings.

well not really

it started in January of 2016

 

[garee]

I don't believe a woman should be a pastor...but I have to say...there is a whole lot more going on in the last few pages then whether or not a woman should preach in a church

it's scary in fact

I don't see any difference here than in all the threads representing differences of opinion

lots of opinions, but who has the mind of the Lord?

I would say few. Generally speaking, I get the distinct impression that some men here do not love women at all..thank God for Jesus

and remember, what I am saying here has nothing to do with the question of women speaking in church...I am addressing a much bigger problem

just one nagging little question tho: if a woman can prophesy in church, that IS speaking? right?



so if someone loves the word so much? take note cause that IS what it says and don't come back with women need to shut up cause God said so...I already said I do not agree with a woman pastor...at the same time, no doubt there are some fine ones just as there are some men who would do better to just shut the hay up and sit down

From my experences it has much too with defining words that have had new meaning attached to them. Like the word teach. Change the meaning of one word change the whole direction of the authors intent

Yes woman can prophesy in church, and that IS speaking? It’s the context of 1 Corinthians 14.

The time of the reformation restored the order to where it was before women were segregated from the men. The promise of Joel is in effect.

If we bypass the purpose of time of reformation we lose the value as to the new order.

Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

When a woman like a man declares the will of God, it is prophecy. We are given the understanding we preach Christ, the preacher not our own selves. He is the promised one that would give us His understanding and warns of of those who say we do need a an to teach us. So in that way we do not look to a woman or a man.

The teaching role of the church is not to usurp the teaching ministry of Christ.

Even the Son of man when approached as good teacher replied only God is good giving the glory to the promised Holy Spirit.

Women are not allowed to council men in that mixed setting just as men are not to council in private affairs with women other than that of their wives at home.

He has designed the ministry of both the deacon and his wife to take care of private affair between a man and a woman as councilors teaching them how to handle those kinds of situations.

Again the Holy Spirit does the teaching\preaching of His word. We seek his approval not that of man or woman

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Well this is where some considerable misunderstanding enters the discussion. Old school guys like me see preaching in church to be the primary responsibility of the local church pastor. So a woman would be disqualified from preaching in church.

Since I don't buy the modern teaching on prophesy I have no issue as man or woman they are out of order in the church in the modern era.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You didn't even listen to a word your sister said...!

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Thanks for the mischaracterization. The Holy Spirit is as active as ever but not in the apostolic fashion desired by Pentecostal and charismatic folks.

Sound doctrine is important.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

well, if He IS as active as ever, you cannot, truthfully, say He does not still handle the spiritual gift giving as per God's instructions

I mean you can say that...but then you cannot say you believe the Holy Spirit is as active as ever He was...what you are actually saying?

you are actually saying the Holy Spirit is semi-retired and possibly thinking of His pension

I do agree that sound doctrine is important...but the doctrine of God...not men

anyway, not gonna play round and round the mulberry bush with you again Roger...you say some good things, but this back and forth is not going to be profitable and this is NOT what the op is about

so, quitting this now as I don't like it myself when someone comes on a thread I started and decides to derail it because they have a captive audience

 

[7seasrekeyed]

From my experences it has much too with defining words that have had new meaning attached to them. Like the word teach. Change the meaning of one word change the whole direction of the authors intent

Yes woman can prophesy in church, and that IS speaking? It’s the context of 1 Corinthians 14.

The time of the reformation restored the order to where it was before women were segregated from the men. The promise of Joel is in effect.

If we bypass the purpose of time of reformation we lose the value as to the new order.

Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

When a woman like a man declares the will of God, it is prophecy. We are given the understanding we preach Christ, the preacher not our own selves. He is the promised one that would give us His understanding and warns of of those who say we do need a an to teach us. So in that way we do not look to a woman or a man.

The teaching role of the church is not to usurp the teaching ministry of Christ.

Even the Son of man when approached as good teacher replied only God is good giving the glory to the promised Holy Spirit.

Women are not allowed to council men in that mixed setting just as men are not to council in private affairs with women other than that of their wives at home.

He has designed the ministry of both the deacon and his wife to take care of private affair between a man and a woman as councilors teaching them how to handle those kinds of situations.

Again the Holy Spirit does the teaching\preaching of His word. We seek his approval not that of man or woman

I do agree with much of what you say here...where I would take a harder look, would be in what I bolded above

I don't think scripture is actually saying we do not need anyone to teach us because first off, that would make the gift of teaching, well, probably not even there. further, scripture does say that teachers have more to answer for...many who call themselves teachers were never called to be what they call themselves...along with worship leaders (so called) and 'prophets', these are 'desirable' gifts and so are grabbed even when not given...but I guess that could be a good discussion for another thread

God has already declared His will ... thing is, it is added to, detracted from, or spurious additions made by the nouvelle prophets who declare new revelatory garblings that have nothing to do with God and everything to do with deception

I realize you are not saying these things, and I do basically agree with your post with a few exceptions or observations

I'll leave it at the one for now

but we desperately NEED the Spirit of God and discernment to know His voice from all the others cackling for our attention

thanks

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I have seen a little of the spirit of what Paul spoke in the verses being talked about. For those not ready to bear it yet, it will just sound ridiculous. But to those who are ready to bear it, they will understand.

Do you remember when Paul said: do you really think God was talking about oxen there?

This is the same as that. We are all the woman, the bride, of Christ. None of us as that woman, are to usurp the role of Holy Spirit as the teacher. Do you really think he was talking about any obedience of flesh? How so if the flesh is always against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh? Did laws given for the flesh ever work? If so, why must the flesh die and the spirit live?

Some will understand this and be ready to bear it.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You didn't even listen to a word your sister said...!

LOL!

doesn't that just actually underscore what I said?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Thanks for the mischaracterization. The Holy Spirit is as active as ever but not in the apostolic fashion desired by Pentecostal and charismatic folks.

Sound doctrine is important.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Could we have the verses for this doctrine that states the Holy Spirit is as active as ever but not in the apostolic fashion?

I agree doctrine is important, and of course I agree that it is based on scripture.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Yes, I agree 7. You see the real nature in marriage. You see it in children from the marriage. Even without a marriage, with a woman who is grown and lives with her mother, or her sister - you see the real nature.

A married woman sees the real nature in her husband. The husband sees the real nature in his wife. They both fight against that real nature they come to see in each other.

A wife wants her husband to love her with no selfishness. She fights against not getting this as she wants.

A husband also wants his wife to love him without selfishness. And he fights against not getting this as he wants.

I live with my mother. I want her to also love me perfectly. But she can't. I can't love perfectly either, but I want to demand that she do it. I demand from others what even I can't give to them.

But the Spirit can work love and forgiveness in me. That love stops seeking for itself and I begin to lay down my life of selfseeking for the other. I begin to submit to them in love.

The danger for the men in here is not that their wives will submit to them in love by the Spirit in them. The danger for them is that they themselves will not also submit in love to their wives. Because they think submitting in love is for the wife and not for themselves too.

We are to (by the Holy Spirit working in us) submit to each other in love. Me to you, you to me, your husband to you, you to your husband. When i submit to you in love, this doesn't mean i obey whatever you desire from me. It means I stop seeking my own good and seek yours, even IF you don't reciprocate. If we want others to love unselfishly, we will never get what we desire unless we first lay down our life to love. And this is to become more like our Loird, who didn't seek His own good, but our good, and laid down His life and every right He had in order to win us.

I suspect there is more to submission than 'love'...as I noted some posts back. I really do.

any close relationship will reveal the person...but marriage is one of the best examples

I also do not believe that submission is giving way to an angry spirit even if it is right. I lived long enough, been saved long enough (since 5 but not always paying attention) to see the results of something right going wrong because of the spirit in which it was deliverd

this, would be part of discernment, part of experience...which I believe partially gives discernment and when coupled with the gift, results in some in depth and sometimes very telling observations...often best kept to yourself and only prayed about

I have reached the stage in my life where I think it best to part company with some believers...some of whom are no example of what they say they believe....I am well aware of my failings probably better than anyone else although God knows some are very happy to point them out, believing that somehow that elevates them (of course it doesn't and not necessarily any reflection on anyone here)

I have backed off a few things going on in here because I believe I have been told...by the Holy Spirit...to back off and the flip and interesting side of that ...is that some may believe God has answered their prayers by my not participating...and this works the same in real life. (prob will cause a few to go whaaa? here)

some people are walking around with ichabod written over their heads and have no clue and may sound the most vocal in defense of the gospel...but sadly, it is THEIR gospel

I really no longer have expectations of any human being meeting me where I live in the depths of my heart...that may just be God's territory for us anyway

the above prob sounds like rambling here, but it's what I think

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Could we have the verses for this doctrine that states the Holy Spirit is as active as ever but not in the apostolic fashion?

I agree doctrine is important, and of course I agree that it is based on scripture.

My assumption is that this statement of yours is based more on the degraded life of the church not walking in the Spirit much. In other words, its based more on what you see with your eyes than on scripture. But I would like to hear if you have at least two, hopefully three, scriptures that teach us this.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I have backed off a few things going on in here because I believe I have been told...by the Holy Spirit...to back off and the flip and interesting side of that ...is that some may believe God has answered their prayers by my not participating...and this works the same in real life. (prob will cause a few to go whaaa? here)

I want to add something to the above quote from my own post 909

when people refuse the truth, God will allow them to go after their desires or lusts...even spiritual sounding ones...and when the birds come home to roost, that may be the only way they will finally come to knowledge of the truth

a dead end, when someone truly believes they are following after God and they find out that they are not, is one of the most painful experiences a believer can have

we do have people in this very forum who are on that very path now...obviously not going to name anyone and not directing this at anyone because you can take that principal anywhere you go...any church...fellowship...relationship...home meeting

it's just a fact

by the time someone comes along and tells you (anyone) they have a 'word' for you that God has laid on their heart...if it is genuine...it is because you (anyone) refuse to hear it from God yourself

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Could we have the verses for this doctrine that states the Holy Spirit is as active as ever but not in the apostolic fashion?

I agree doctrine is important, and of course I agree that it is based on scripture.

that's the derail I was hoping to avoid...sigh

 

[7seasrekeyed]

My assumption is that this statement of yours is based more on the degraded life of the church not walking in the Spirit much. In other words, its based more on what you see with your eyes than on scripture. But I would like to hear if you have at least two, hopefully three, scriptures that teach us this.

uh...not sure I follow you but if I do understand what you are saying? I would have to say not at all

what I see with my eyes is confirmation of scripture...otherwise it is the caboose instead of the engine leading

always best to just ask...I usually hold more than one thought on something but do not express it even in 'real time'

my head just works that way

the entire Bible teaches us this

where does it say in scripture the Holy Spirit left town? to be sure, He has left some churches

but I know many here do not believe that...so....

I am aware, and tiredly so, of those who use the following verse to say certain things have ceased. but notice, again, how the more 'respectful' gifts like teaching are held onto...very close to the heart...while babblers are distained...

Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. I Cor. 13:8

you would sometimes think that knowledge has been done away with....but thankfully it has not and neither have the other two become extinct

 

[7seasrekeyed]

haha..thx for the rep on the rambling and saying you wish I would ramble more

don't encourage me

it isn't good for me...cause I will regret giving too much away

 

[Dino246]

So then -- according to you -- the Holy Spirit was in error since those are the words of God given to Paul to be written down for posterity (1 Cor 14:34). That is pretty bold for any Christian. If the Law did not say that, how could it possibly be in Scripture? But if the Law does say that, then you are not only mistaken, but you owe an apology to every Christian who believes that that is Scripture.

In this instance "the Law" is a reference to the Torah, and in particular to Genesis 3:16, and most commentators are agreed that this is where Paul derives his authority BY DIVINE INSPIRATION.

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

It may also be possible that there are other OT passages which support this teaching, but regardless of what is referenced, if it is in NT Scripture it is true for all churches.

John Gill also goes on to say:
"The extraordinary instances of Deborah, Huldah, and Anna, must not be drawn into a rule or example in such cases."

But that is exactly what you are doing. You are giving examples of prophetesses, and failing to give more weight to what is stipulated in Scripture regarding the operation of Christian churches. Paul was fully aware of these few prophetesses, but it is God who instructed Paul to write what he wrote, but you are boldly denying that what he wrote is true. Then how do you know what is true and what is false in the Scriptures you quote all the time?

It is completely nonsensical that God's words to Eve in Genesis 3:16 are commands in the same sense of the Levitical laws or ten commandments. Why didn't God say to Adam, whom He addressed moments later, that he shall rule over his wife? Further, why would God "command" that women suffer in childbirth? Do you consider that women who receive epidurals are committing sin in doing so?

I hope not. If that is truly what you believe, you need to give your head a shake.

Consider that Genesis 3:16 is a statement of certain consequence, not of commandment. God cursed the ground and the serpent; he told Adam and Eve what the consequences of their actions would be.

Therefore, "he shall rule over you" is what would happen. The history of men ruling harshly over women in all cultures is fulfillment of this. As Christian men, we should be proclaiming redemption to Eve's descendants, not adding to their suffering.

 

[Ralph-]

you are actually saying the Holy Spirit is semi-retired and possibly thinking of His pension

...And might be looking for a condo in Florida.

I hope he knows about the fire ants.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

that's the derail I was hoping to avoid...sigh

Sir, we have made our sister sigh. If you have scripture for this belief of yours, please start a new thread. I would like to hear it and will participate if you start it.

 

[notuptome]

Could we have the verses for this doctrine that states the Holy Spirit is as active as ever but not in the apostolic fashion?

I agree doctrine is important, and of course I agree that it is based on scripture.

1 Cor 13:8 three actions of the Holy Spirit changed.

The Holy Spirit is still working in the hearts of men bringing them to Christ. John 16:8-11

The Holy Spirit is still filling born again believers to serve and testify of the saving grace of Christ.

Of course its not the first time I have said this.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

uh...not sure I follow you but if I do understand what you are saying? I would have to say not at all

what I see with my eyes is confirmation of scripture...otherwise it is the caboose instead of the engine leading

always best to just ask...I usually hold more than one thought on something but do not express it even in 'real time'

my head just works that way

the entire Bible teaches us this

where does it say in scripture the Holy Spirit left town? to be sure, He has left some churches

but I know many here do not believe that...so....

I am aware, and tiredly so, of those who use the following verse to say certain things have ceased. but notice, again, how the more 'respectful' gifts like teaching are held onto...very close to the heart...while babblers are distained...

Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. I Cor. 13:8

you would sometimes think that knowledge has been done away with....but thankfully it has not and neither have the other two become extinct

Having what you see with your eyes be confirmation of scripture is good!!

What isn't good is seeing with your eyes that the Holy Spirit does not seem to work as powerfully as He did and so saying it is fact that He doesn't, and then finding scriptures to prove that what you see is His will. Because that is just trying to conform scripture to what your eyes see, instead of what your eyes seeing confirming scripture.

So if it's true that we don't see the Spirit working as powerfully, I wouldn't search for scripture other than to see why it is so and try to gain back what we've lost. I wouldn't just assume it's His will to not work as powerfully.

Has my own rambling not made sense...?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

1 Cor 13:8 three actions of the Holy Spirit changed.

The Holy Spirit is still working in the hearts of men bringing them to Christ. John 16:8-11

The Holy Spirit is still filling born again believers to serve and testify of the saving grace of Christ.

Of course its not the first time I have said this.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Ah, okay. Yeah, not worth a whole thread if all you have is one verse for your doctrine. Thanks for answering me though.