The Rapture

[PlainWord]

Reread what you quoted!! To the mountains not over them. Several times those running from the Law or not wanting to be found go and hide in the mountains. It would literally require a whole lot of troops keeping in sight of each other going up a mountain to possibly find someone hiding there. Several manhunts have had to just wait and try to capture the person when they came down for supplies.

I made incredible, and very impossible points for you to refute, and you pick on one thing which I will explain BTW. You don't address how fleeing Judea protects anyone from a world wide catastrophe. You don't address why the Sabbath would make any difference to 99.9% of the world's population today. You don't address that people don't sleep on their roofs to stay cool today like they did in the first century. Further you ignore Luke's account when he makes much clearer the location of the coming desolation:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

What country do you suppose Luke was talking about? Where do you find Jerusalem and Judea? Can you find a time in history, after Christ said this, that Jerusalem was surrounded by enemies and made desolate? Oh yeah, 70 AD. But let's ignore the immediate desolation and instead look to a future one thousands of years later. That makes a ton of sense.

As for fleeing over the mountains verses fleeing to the mountains. Have you been to Israel? Are you familiar with the topography? The mountains to the east of Jerusalem is where they fled, then they went along the mountain range all the way north before coming down into the wilderness stopping at Pella which had previously been attacked by Rome thus it was left alone. So, they fled to the mountains, went along the mountains before going down the other side. Oops, was Christ not specific enough for you?

You also fail to tie Rev 12, flight of the Good Woman (Faithful and Believing Israel), to the Olivet Discourse. This region was wilderness and they stayed there 3.5 years until Masada was defeated and Rome left the region. Look at the map and the path they took. "There are none so blind as those who refuse to see."



​

 

[Roadkill]

I made incredible, and very impossible points for you to refute, and you pick on one thing which I will explain BTW. You don't address how fleeing Judea protects anyone from a world wide catastrophe. You don't address why the Sabbath would make any difference to 99.9% of the world's population today. You don't address that people don't sleep on their roofs to stay cool today like they did in the first century. Further you ignore Luke's account when he makes much clearer the location of the coming desolation:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

What country do you suppose Luke was talking about? Where do you find Jerusalem and Judea? Can you find a time in history, after Christ said this, that Jerusalem was surrounded by enemies and made desolate? Oh yeah, 70 AD. But let's ignore the immediate desolation and instead look to a future one thousands of years later. That makes a ton of sense.

As for fleeing over the mountains verses fleeing to the mountains. Have you been to Israel? Are you familiar with the topography? The mountains to the east of Jerusalem is where they fled, then they went along the mountain range all the way north before coming down into the wilderness stopping at Pella which had previously been attacked by Rome thus it was left alone. So, they fled to the mountains, went along the mountains before going down the other side. Oops, was Christ not specific enough for you?

You also fail to tie Rev 12, flight of the Good Woman (Faithful and Believing Israel), to the Olivet Discourse. This region was wilderness and they stayed there 3.5 years until Masada was defeated and Rome left the region. Look at the map and the path they took. "There are none so blind as those who refuse to see."



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Question for you PlainWord.

In Revelation chapter 19 it clearly tells of a 200 million man army invading Israel from the East. This happens before the 1,000 year reign of Jesus in Israel here on Earth which follows in chapter 20. During this battle Jesus himself comes to this battle.

I can not see a 200 million man army invading Israel and not laying siege to Jerusalem just by the sheer size of the force and the size of the country of Israel.

In all of Roman antiquity there was never an army this large.

How do you explain this in your theory?

 

[Endoscopy]

I made incredible, and very impossible points for you to refute, and you pick on one thing which I will explain BTW. You don't address how fleeing Judea protects anyone from a world wide catastrophe. You don't address why the Sabbath would make any difference to 99.9% of the world's population today. You don't address that people don't sleep on their roofs to stay cool today like they did in the first century. Further you ignore Luke's account when he makes much clearer the location of the coming desolation:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

What country do you suppose Luke was talking about? Where do you find Jerusalem and Judea? Can you find a time in history, after Christ said this, that Jerusalem was surrounded by enemies and made desolate? Oh yeah, 70 AD. But let's ignore the immediate desolation and instead look to a future one thousands of years later. That makes a ton of sense.

As for fleeing over the mountains verses fleeing to the mountains. Have you been to Israel? Are you familiar with the topography? The mountains to the east of Jerusalem is where they fled, then they went along the mountain range all the way north before coming down into the wilderness stopping at Pella which had previously been attacked by Rome thus it was left alone. So, they fled to the mountains, went along the mountains before going down the other side. Oops, was Christ not specific enough for you?

You also fail to tie Rev 12, flight of the Good Woman (Faithful and Believing Israel), to the Olivet Discourse. This region was wilderness and they stayed there 3.5 years until Masada was defeated and Rome left the region. Look at the map and the path they took. "There are none so blind as those who refuse to see."



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5 in

It is obvious to the casual observer that you don't seem to understand geography and events after Israel became a country again. As the British pulled out the SURROUNDING MUSLIM COUNTRIES attacked Israel with the war cry of drive them into the sea and kill them there. Israel handed them their butt. They tried a few more times with the same result with one only lasting 6 days. After being defeated enough times they turned to terrorism!! They target countries worldwide with terrorism. They are already surrounded by enemies. The issue is who will fight with these countries in the future.

One issue is there are 2 groups of Muslims that lived in Israel when the Jews took over the government. One group stayed where they were. Those Muslims live peacefully in Israel and a few are part of the government. The other group did what the Muslim countries said they should do. Pack up and leave. The problem was those countries refused to admit their brother Muslims and they became the Palestinians!! They are rabid at blaming Israel for their problems ignoring their brother Muslims created this situation!

 

[PlainWord]

Question for youPlainWord.

In Revelation chapter 19 it clearly tells of a 200 million man army invading Israel from the East. This happens before the 1,000 year reign of Jesus inIsrael here on Earth which follows in chapter 20. During this battle Jesushimself comes to this battle.

I can not see a 200 million man army invading Israel and not laying siege toJerusalem just by the sheer size of the force and the size of the country ofIsrael.

In all of Roman antiquity there was never an army this large.

How do you explain this in your theory?

I think you mean Rev 9? The 200 million was a translation error. Oh, the follies of some of our English translations leading to so much confusion. Don’t feel bad, the word, "million" does not exist in the Greek or Hebrew text. The word used was "myriad."

Most English versions translates the number of horsemen as two hundred million. However, as indicated in the word-for-word Interlinear Translation from Greek to English, this verse would perhaps most literally read, “And the number of the armies of the cavalry was twice ten thousand ten thousands.” The word-for-word Interlinear also appears to translate the Hebrew equivalent of this number as “20,000” in Psalm 68:17: “The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: theLord is among them..” Young’s Literal Translation also suggests that the number of soldiers might be more accurately translated “20,000.” Young’s Literal Translation reads, “and the number of the forces of the horsemen is two myriads of myriads, and I heard the numberof them.” In Greek antiquity a myriad is a unit of ten thousand. They are to be added, not multiplied. Thus, two myriads are 20,000 troops–the exact number of Roman auxiliary troops which came from the Euphrates and were presentduring the siege and fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

When we see “myriads of myriads” often it is to be taken as a vast number which cannot be numbered. It is likely that the number of locust soldiers of Revelation 9:16 is intended to be a nonliteral, uncountable andthus hyperbolic number like Nebuchadnezzar’s army when it attacked Egypt aspredicted in Jeremiah 46:23: “They [Nebuchadnezzar’s army] are more numerous than locusts, they cannot be counted.” Obviously, Neb’s army had a number just as Titus’ forces could be numbered yet in John’s day, the Roman forces would seem to be innumerable just as they were with the previous Babylonian army which also left Jerusalem desolate. It is compelling that twice Jerusalem was left desolate by foreign forces, once by Babylon then again by Rome so it is logical to describe these forces in the same way.

Also noteworthy is the fact that these auxiliary troops from the Euphrates sent to reinforce Titus were commanded by 4 generals, Antiochus, Agrippa, Sohemus and Malchus. Referring to prominent men doing God's work as "angels" is not uncommon and I can give you examples if you'd like. And yes, they killed roughly 1/3 of the Jews (mankind) in Jerusalem.

 

[PlainWord]

It is obvious to the casual observer that you don't seem to understand geography and events after Israel became a country again. As the British pulled out the SURROUNDING MUSLIM COUNTRIES attacked Israel with the war cry of drive them into the sea and kill them there. Israel handed them their butt. They tried a few more times with the same result with one only lasting 6 days. After being defeated enough times they turned to terrorism!! They target countries worldwide with terrorism. They are already surrounded by enemies. The issue is who will fight with these countries in the future.

One issue is there are 2 groups of Muslims that lived in Israel when the Jews took over the government. One group stayed where they were. Those Muslims live peacefully in Israel and a few are part of the government. The other group did what the Muslim countries said they should do. Pack up and leave. The problem was those countries refused to admit their brother Muslims and they became the Palestinians!! They are rabid at blaming Israel for their problems ignoring their brother Muslims created this situation!

Perhaps that is one of your main problem, you are just a "casual observer" of the Bible. You don't dig and put in the homework, nor do you study history. You merely regurgitate the things you've heard from the pulpit by others who also didn't put the time in to understand.

In writing Revelation (divinely inspired as it was), John was using symbolism used by the OT prophets in many cases to discuss the pending (to them) destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. Since much OT prophesy such as Isaiah and Jeremiah, dealt with the first desolation, it goes to figure that John would use their language to describe what Rome was going to do in the very near future (to them) in causing their desolation. For instance, John used "locusts" to describe the Roman solders just as was done to describe King Neb's forces. The parallel was striking and using locusts for a vast army would well be understood by the Jews of the day.

What you (and other ill-informed and misled people) fail to understand is what Jesus and the disciples had been discussing prior to Mat 24. It was all about the pending judgment, destruction of the temple and desolation of Jerusalem (as foretold in Daniel 9:27). Jesus was speaking in a very personal way to them about things relevant to them as He would be leaving soon. They were the righteous, so they would understand, but the wicked would not. First century Israel was "the house divided" which would not stand much longer. All of this is lost on those who refuse to see. I feel bad for you brother.

 

[tanakh]

One thing done to the Bible which is both a blessing and a curse is to divide the books into Chapters and verses. Its a blessing because it makes it easier to find passages but a curse because it also allows us to ignore them as well. Many false teachings and misunderstandings have arisen because of this and Matthew Chapters 23-25 are a case in point.

 

[Endoscopy]

Perhaps that is one of your main problem, you are just a "casual observer" of the Bible. You don't dig and put in the homework, nor do you study history. You merely regurgitate the things you've heard from the pulpit by others who also didn't put the time in to understand.

In writing Revelation (divinely inspired as it was), John was using symbolism used by the OT prophets in many cases to discuss the pending (to them) destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. Since much OT prophesy such as Isaiah and Jeremiah, dealt with the first desolation, it goes to figure that John would use their language to describe what Rome was going to do in the very near future (to them) in causing their desolation. For instance, John used "locusts" to describe the Roman solders just as was done to describe King Neb's forces. The parallel was striking and using locusts for a vast army would well be understood by the Jews of the day.

What you (and other ill-informed and misled people) fail to understand is what Jesus and the disciples had been discussing prior to Mat 24. It was all about the pending judgment, destruction of the temple and desolation of Jerusalem (as foretold in Daniel 9:27). Jesus was speaking in a very personal way to them about things relevant to them as He would be leaving soon. They were the righteous, so they would understand, but the wicked would not. First century Israel was "the house divided" which would not stand much longer. All of this is lost on those who refuse to see. I feel bad for you brother.

The reason I use that phrase is because I worked with an electronic engineer and when we worked on a difficult problem he would say that in jest. That is how I use it. I guess you can't understand humor!!

Your suppositions about me are extremely erroneous. I have studied the Bible since I was a teenager. I am currently 73 and have been a deacon and elder in 3 different churches. I was moved by my company twice. In 2 of the churches I was required to take classes from the ministers dwelling on theological issues including eschatology. All classes were Bible based. In addition since a teenager I studied eschatologyical scripture on and off the rest of my life.

Daniel says that the book is closed until the end times. Revelation is a similar style book with similar symbolism. Since they are closed books theologians over the centuries have created 4 seperate Biblical views of eschatology. All based on the symbolic wording of the eschatologyical scripture. Here are two links to sites discussing this issue.

Here are a couple of sites discussing the 4 main eschatologyical views. Notice some have minor variations.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/millenni.htm

 

[Endoscopy]

One thing done to the Bible which is both a blessing and a curse is to divide the books into Chapters and verses. Its a blessing because it makes it easier to find passages but a curse because it also allows us to ignore them as well. Many false teachings and misunderstandings have arisen because of this and Matthew Chapters 23-25 are a case in point.

Because of that there are a couple of Bibles that remove chapter and verse designations It makes nicer reading but almost impossible to look up specific scriptures. Obviously that is why chapter and verse designations were created.

 

[Troubled65]

One thing done to the Bible which is both a blessing and a curse is to divide the books into Chapters and verses. Its a blessing because it makes it easier to find passages but a curse because it also allows us to ignore them as well. Many false teachings and misunderstandings have arisen because of this and Matthew Chapters 23-25 are a case in point.

I agree. Isaiah 52 "Behold the servant of the LORD" should be with chapter 53.

 

[PlainWord]

The reason I use that phrase is because I worked with an electronic engineer and when we worked on a difficult problem he would say that in jest. That is how I use it. I guess you can't understand humor!!

Your suppositions about me are extremely erroneous. I have studied the Bible since I was a teenager. I am currently 73 and have been a deacon and elder in 3 different churches. I was moved by my company twice. In 2 of the churches I was required to take classes from the ministers dwelling on theological issues including eschatology. All classes were Bible based. In addition since a teenager I studied eschatologyical scripture on and off the rest of my life.

Daniel says that the book is closed until the end times. Revelation is a similar style book with similar symbolism. Since they are closed books theologians over the centuries have created 4 seperate Biblical views of eschatology. All based on the symbolic wording of the eschatologyical scripture. Here are two links to sites discussing this issue.

Here are a couple of sites discussing the 4 main eschatologyical views. Notice some have minor variations.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/millenni.htm

Obviously one cannot tell from your "joke" that it was a joke, nor would one know that your electronics engineer buddy was known for the phrase. I'm a former naval nuclear engineer (civilian) so I guess I can use the phrase also.

Thanks for your service in the Kingdom of God. I mean that truly. However, your study of eschatology, and that of those who share your views, are seriously flawed. Virtually everything prophetic in the NT dealt with the very soon (~40 years) pending destruction of Jerusalem and end of Israel as a nation for the next two millennia. Since we know much of OT prophesy dealt with the coming Babylonian destruction we should expect considerable time to be devoted to warn Jews of the first century. However you and others don't see hardly any mention of 70 AD events in NT prophesy, instead you think it relates to some world-wide event thousands of year later. This is another of your major errors my good fellow. Most prophesy is given to people who can benefit from it, not to people thousands of years into the future.

Daniel was not talking about the end of days of the planet earth!! He was talking about the end of days of Israel. How does Dan 9 end?

"...and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'"

Consummation = burning by fire
Desolate = nobody lives there anymore

From the time Daniel wrote this, the next time Israel was destroyed was in 70 AD. It was conquered by Antiochus IV Epiphanes in the 2nd century BC, but not destroyed. In 70 AD, it was destroyed by fire and left desolate. A logical minded person (such as an engineer, LOL) would infer Daniel would be discussing the next desolation and not jump over it, being silent about it, to some future to us desolation. But these are the mental gymnastics you guys have to employ.

In Dan 12, this is found:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Purify themselves, yea, make themselves white, yea, refined are many: and the wicked have done wickedly, and none of the wicked understand, and those acting wisely do understand

This is what Jesus says predicting the very near to His future:

​

And Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said to them, `Every kingdom having been divided against itself is desolated, and no city or house having been divided against itself, doth stand​

​

​

Now this is what Josephus records when describing those days in 70 AD. He is telling us that Daniel's words in Dan 12 were being fulfilled right then:
​

This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.

Jesus devotes a ton of time to the soon to be desolation and judgment of His people. He discusses the "great tribulation" they would soon endure because "they did not know the time of their visitation (Lk 19) which they should have known because Daniel told them. You are 73 and you still haven't figured this out. I once believed as you did, but things were not adding up. Everything screams of first century fulfillment. Everything tells us bad things were just around the corner for them. AND IT WAS.​

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[Endoscopy]

Obviously one cannot tell from your "joke" that it was a joke, nor would one know that your electronics engineer buddy was known for the phrase. I'm a former naval nuclear engineer (civilian) so I guess I can use the phrase also.

Thanks for your service in the Kingdom of God. I mean that truly. However, your study of eschatology, and that of those who share your views, are seriously flawed. Virtually everything prophetic in the NT dealt with the very soon (~40 years) pending destruction of Jerusalem and end of Israel as a nation for the next two millennia. Since we know much of OT prophesy dealt with the coming Babylonian destruction we should expect considerable time to be devoted to warn Jews of the first century. However you and others don't see hardly any mention of 70 AD events in NT prophesy, instead you think it relates to some world-wide event thousands of year later. This is another of your major errors my good fellow. Most prophesy is given to people who can benefit from it, not to people thousands of years into the future.

Daniel was not talking about the end of days of the planet earth!! He was talking about the end of days of Israel. How does Dan 9 end?

"...and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'"

Consummation = burning by fire
Desolate = nobody lives there anymore

From the time Daniel wrote this, the next time Israel was destroyed was in 70 AD. It was conquered by Antiochus IV Epiphanes in the 2nd century BC, but not destroyed. In 70 AD, it was destroyed by fire and left desolate. A logical minded person (such as an engineer, LOL) would infer Daniel would be discussing the next desolation and not jump over it, being silent about it, to some future to us desolation. But these are the mental gymnastics you guys have to employ.

In Dan 12, this is found:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Purify themselves, yea, make themselves white, yea, refined are many: and the wicked have done wickedly, and none of the wicked understand, and those acting wisely do understand

This is what Jesus says predicting the very near to His future:

​

And Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said to them, `Every kingdom having been divided against itself is desolated, and no city or house having been divided against itself, doth stand​

Now this is what Josephus records when describing those days in 70 AD. He is telling us that Daniel's words in Dan 12 were being fulfilled right then:
​

This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.

Jesus devotes a ton of time to the soon to be desolation and judgment of His people. He discusses the "great tribulation" they would soon endure because "they did not know the time of their visitation (Lk 19) which they should have known because Daniel told them. You are 73 and you still haven't figured this out. I once believed as you did, but things were not adding up. Everything screams of first century fulfillment. Everything tells us bad things were just around the corner for them. AND IT WAS.​

​

As soon as I read 40 years I stopped reading. I have heard too many time frame that didn't come to pass to make anything beyond that to be believable. Several on this board also made such prophecies as well. Jesus said only the Father knows the time. I take his word for that. First the temple hashas to be built.

I bet you also believe the wailing wall was part of the temple complex. Such delusions.

 

[Roadkill]

I think you mean Rev 9? The 200 million was a translation error. Oh, the follies of some of our English translations leading to so much confusion. Don’t feel bad, the word, "million" does not exist in the Greek or Hebrew text. The word used was "myriad."

Most English versions translates the number of horsemen as two hundred million. However, as indicated in the word-for-word Interlinear Translation from Greek to English, this verse would perhaps most literally read, “And the number of the armies of the cavalry was twice ten thousand ten thousands.” The word-for-word Interlinear also appears to translate the Hebrew equivalent of this number as “20,000” in Psalm 68:17: “The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: theLord is among them..” Young’s Literal Translation also suggests that the number of soldiers might be more accurately translated “20,000.” Young’s Literal Translation reads, “and the number of the forces of the horsemen is two myriads of myriads, and I heard the numberof them.” In Greek antiquity a myriad is a unit of ten thousand. They are to be added, not multiplied. Thus, two myriads are 20,000 troops–the exact number of Roman auxiliary troops which came from the Euphrates and were presentduring the siege and fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

When we see “myriads of myriads” often it is to be taken as a vast number which cannot be numbered. It is likely that the number of locust soldiers of Revelation 9:16 is intended to be a nonliteral, uncountable andthus hyperbolic number like Nebuchadnezzar’s army when it attacked Egypt aspredicted in Jeremiah 46:23: “They [Nebuchadnezzar’s army] are more numerous than locusts, they cannot be counted.” Obviously, Neb’s army had a number just as Titus’ forces could be numbered yet in John’s day, the Roman forces would seem to be innumerable just as they were with the previous Babylonian army which also left Jerusalem desolate. It is compelling that twice Jerusalem was left desolate by foreign forces, once by Babylon then again by Rome so it is logical to describe these forces in the same way.

Also noteworthy is the fact that these auxiliary troops from the Euphrates sent to reinforce Titus were commanded by 4 generals, Antiochus, Agrippa, Sohemus and Malchus. Referring to prominent men doing God's work as "angels" is not uncommon and I can give you examples if you'd like. And yes, they killed roughly 1/3 of the Jews (mankind) in Jerusalem.

My bad, it was Revelation chapter 9 and 10 were the chapters I was referring to. "Probably" is not going to cut it for me. KJV says 200 thousand thousand and that adds up to 200,000,000. Also you have the problem of chapter 10 following it. Jesus himself comes to this battle and afterwards rules 1000 years here on earth.

 

[Ahwatukee]

My bad, it was Revelation chapter 9 and 10 were the chapters I was referring to. "Probably" is not going to cut it for me. KJV says 200 thousand thousand and that adds up to 200,000,000. Also you have the problem of chapter 10 following it. Jesus himself comes to this battle and afterwards rules 1000 years here on earth.

Hello Roadkill,

Regarding the 200 million, you are referring to the sounding of the sixth trumpet/2nd woe, where the four angels that are bound in the area of the Euphrates River who gather their army of 200 million. This is going to be a demonic army led by those four fallen angels. Why would you say that Jesus is going to be at this battle, which isn't really a battle but a slaughter, when there is no scripture to support this? Also, this plague of wrath takes place at the sixth trumpet, Jesus doesn't return until after the 7th bowl has been poured out and then begins His thousand year reign.

 

[PlainWord]

As soon as I read 40 years I stopped reading. I have heard too many time frame that didn't come to pass to make anything beyond that to be believable. Several on this board also made such prophecies as well. Jesus said only the Father knows the time. I take his word for that. First the temple hashas to be built.

I bet you also believe the wailing wall was part of the temple complex. Such delusions.

I guess in your case, ignorance is bliss.

No, the wailing wall was part of Antonio Fortress (named after Roman General Mark Antony). The Jews are worshiping at the foot of the Roman wall which was used to launch the final assault on the temple. Ironic, isn't it?

 

[PlainWord]

My bad, it was Revelation chapter 9 and 10 were the chapters I was referring to. "Probably" is not going to cut it for me. KJV says 200 thousand thousand and that adds up to 200,000,000. Also you have the problem of chapter 10 following it. Jesus himself comes to this battle and afterwards rules 1000 years here on earth.

The KJV, like all other translations do their best but they did not have the benefit of doing key word searches using electronic bibles like we do. In 1611 AD, they had to pour over manuscripts and do their best to try to glean the original intent of the authors. They certainly did not attempt to translate all the figurative language in use in Revelation into its literal meanings. The KJV, as good as it is, is not as good as Young's which shows the actual text translated word-for-word:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]saying to the sixth messenger who had the trumpet, `Loose the four messengers who are bound at the great river Euphrates;'
[SUP]15 [/SUP]and loosed were the four messengers, who have been made ready for the hour, and day, and month, and year, that they may kill the third of men;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]and the number of the forces of the horsemen [is] two myriads of myriads, and I heard the number of them.

​

As I said earlier, a "myriad of myriads" is seldom an absolute number. See YLT Dan 7:10, Rev 5:11. Even "myriad" by itself is not always an absolute number, see Ez 16:7, Ps 68:17, Ps 3:6, Gen 24:60, etc. While a myriad can represent 10,000 and does in places where additional quantifying numbers are given like in Ezra 2:64 and Neh 7:66, most often a myriad more closely means "a big number."

If you look at Rev 5:11, the only other place John uses the same exact phrase in Revelation it says this:

And I saw, and I heard the voice of many messengers round the throne, and the living creatures, and the elders -- and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands.​

Your KJV says this:

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.

Your NKJV (my favorite for reading) says the same thing:

Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.​

But in Rev 9 the NKJV instead gets to an absolute number:

​

Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I head the number of them.​

Now why do the NKJV translators not use an absolute number in Rev 5 but do so in Rev 9? From what I see, when John says "two myriads of myriads" he is really being figurative and his meaning is "not a ton of people" by "twice a ton of people."

Where in Rev 9 do you find Jesus coming to this battle and reigning on earth? I am not disagreeing with you that His Presence (Parousia) is there because it was. Jesus does not literally reign on earth. He reigns over the earth. The earth is His footstool, remember? Mortals could not survive the physical God being visible on earth as His glory is too great for us.
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​

 

[Endoscopy]

My bad, it was Revelation chapter 9 and 10 were the chapters I was referring to. "Probably" is not going to cut it for me. KJV says 200 thousand thousand and that adds up to 200,000,000. Also you have the problem of chapter 10 following it. Jesus himself comes to this battle and afterwards rules 1000 years here on earth.

The problem with translating numbers in the Torah is a word is used that changed meaning about the number over time. It designated a group of men. The meaning of number changed over time. KJV translators didn't understand that. Ancient documents found after 1611 had information about that.

 

[Roadkill]

The problem with translating numbers in the Torah is a word is used that changed meaning about the number over time. It designated a group of men. The meaning of number changed over time. KJV translators didn't understand that. Ancient documents found after 1611 had information about that.

The KJV was made in 1611. To say those scholars back then didn't know Greek or Latin at the time well enough is stretching it at best. They actually were closer to these translations because of their time period. They knew the Older Greek and Latin better than we do now. Also the word is God inspired. The Old Testament in the Dead Sea Scrolls is almost word for word the KJV of today. Why would we not trust their interpretation of the Bible then today if it lines up so well? Don't trust computer translations as they are based on what we know of the languages in this modern age. Didn't have computers 2000 years ago to compare the data to see how well a job they are doing these days. Again I say the Tower of Babel Decree has not been rescinded by God to this very day. I don't care what you have doing the translation these days, because of this you will NOT have a perfect translation each and every time.

 

[Endoscopy]

The KJV was made in 1611. To say those scholars back then didn't know Greek or Latin at the time well enough is stretching it at best. They actually were closer to these translations because of their time period. They knew the Older Greek and Latin better than we do now. Also the word is God inspired. The Old Testament in the Dead Sea Scrolls is almost word for word the KJV of today. Why would we not trust their interpretation of the Bible then today if it lines up so well? Don't trust computer translations as they are based on what we know of the languages in this modern age. Didn't have computers 2000 years ago to compare the data to see how well a job they are doing these days. Again I say the Tower of Babel Decree has not been rescinded by God to this very day. I don't care what you have doing the translation these days, because of this you will NOT have a perfect translation each and every time.

The problem with the KJV isn't it's translation but the change in language since then. Kill back then meant murder. Therefore modern translations say "You shall not murder." another example is stink was a complement. Here are several sites detailing the problem with KJV being translated in 1611 even though it was a good translation at that time.

Refute them if you can!!!

KJV Issues

https://ehrmanblog.org/problems-with-the-language-of-the-king-james-version/

https://newrepublic.com/article/107222/making-it-new

King James Version issues

Is Your Modern Translation Corrupt? - Christian Research Institute

Why the KJV CANNOT be the only true and correct translation of God's Word.

https://www.gotquestions.org/different-gospel.html

The Use and Misuse of the King James Bible: An Interview with Mark Ward
Jonathan Petersen
March 13, 2018

https://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2...pJobID=1362532267&spReportId=MTM2MjUzMjI2NwS2

 

[Roadkill]

The problem with the KJV isn't it's translation but the change in language since then. Kill back then meant murder. Therefore modern translations say "You shall not murder." another example is stink was a complement. Here are several sites detailing the problem with KJV being translated in 1611 even though it was a good translation at that time.

Refute them if you can!!!

KJV Issues

https://ehrmanblog.org/problems-with-the-language-of-the-king-james-version/

https://newrepublic.com/article/107222/making-it-new

King James Version issues

Is Your Modern Translation Corrupt? - Christian Research Institute

Why the KJV CANNOT be the only true and correct translation of God's Word.

https://www.gotquestions.org/different-gospel.html

The Use and Misuse of the King James Bible: An Interview with Mark Ward
Jonathan Petersen
March 13, 2018

https://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2...pJobID=1362532267&spReportId=MTM2MjUzMjI2NwS2

Not refuting them. What I'm saying is their versions have errors too. The earliest Aramaic version found is 6th century and it is Palestinian Aramaic, Jesus and his Apostles spoke Galilean Aramaic. So here too could be some differences in the local dialects. There has not been found an early Hebrew version of the New Testament. The Bible is not designed to tell us about everything. It has gaps to test your faith and to grow your faith. You have to do the digging to get at deeper understanding of the Bible. This does not mean to change the meaning of our base language which is Old English. If you understand Greek and Latin have at it but your translation to Modern English may not be necessarily the correct one either. For those of us who speak English we have to go to our base language because that is what our first version was written in. Sure the new versions are easier to understand and the basic message is complete but the devil is in the details....

This is why we spend our entire lives studying the Bible because you just can't get it all in one reading. This is also the Holy Spirit working in this. The Bible means different things to a person at different times in their lives.

 

[Endoscopy]

Not refuting them. What I'm saying is their versions have errors too. The earliest Aramaic version found is 6th century and it is Palestinian Aramaic, Jesus and his Apostles spoke Galilean Aramaic. So here too could be some differences in the local dialects. There has not been found an early Hebrew version of the New Testament. The Bible is not designed to tell us about everything. It has gaps to test your faith and to grow your faith. You have to do the digging to get at deeper understanding of the Bible. This does not mean to change the meaning of our base language which is Old English. If you understand Greek and Latin have at it but your translation to Modern English may not be necessarily the correct one either. For those of us who speak English we have to go to our base language because that is what our first version was written in. Sure the new versions are easier to understand and the basic message is complete but the devil is in the details....

This is why we spend our entire lives studying the Bible because you just can't get it all in one reading. This is also the Holy Spirit working in this. The Bible means different things to a person at different times in their lives.

Since men are flawed translations will have flaws. To combat this committees do translations to reduce errors. The problem exists of time. Language changes over time. Therefore a good translation in 1611 becomes flawed with this change of the language. Therefore current translations need to be used. There are parallel translation Bibles that have 4 translations side by side.