Rapture= false teaching

forerunner · Jul 27, 2010

WomanLove it is my suggestion that you totally ignore pretrib's post i have delt with him on other sites and he is not in the least interested in truth or edifying conversation, but is a worshiper of the false pretrib doctrine.

pre-trib · Jul 27, 2010

forerunner said:

I suppose that's one way to save face withouit a debate

forerunner · Jul 27, 2010

pre-trib said:

Why debate the deaf, blind, and willfully ignorant? They will not see, hear or listen to you.

pre-trib · Jul 27, 2010

forerunner said:

Do you have a mirror in front of you?

forerunner · Jul 27, 2010

pre-trib said:

You show your true colors.

pre-trib · Jul 27, 2010

forerunner said:

Oh! you mean the colors that says they do not agree with your erroneous doctrine?

forerunner · Jul 27, 2010

pre-trib said:

You know who you are I need not tell you. I spotted you out after 2 or 3 posts

WomanLovesTX · Jul 27, 2010

forerunner said:

Your advice is received with full agreement.

pre-trib · Jul 27, 2010

forerunner said:

Yes,

that is correct,.....I heard that post trib was giving pre-trb problems here,..well thoses day are over,..there's a new kid in town,....so come on and give me your best shot.

forerunner · Jul 27, 2010

6 points that prove post trib rapture (scripture included)

#1 Matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

#2 1st Thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the resurrection of the just/rapture is at the 2nd coming.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they they are Christ at his coming.

#3 1st Cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation, the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

#4 Luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked (which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.
Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

#5 John 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

#6 Rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs as well as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Therefore the pretrib rapture as well as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.

VW · Jul 27, 2010

It is easy to confuse the resurrection with the Life. Jesus is both. Those who are resurrected in the first resurrection are raised from death. Jesus said that if we live and believe in Him, we will never die. We have died, and our lives are now hidden in God with Christ. I am not dead, so the resurrection is not for me, thank Christ Jesus.

forerunner · Jul 27, 2010

VW said:

I would hope that you are looking forward to the resurrection for that is our true hope.

1st Thess 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Philippians 3
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

pre-trib · Jul 27, 2010

forerunner said:

Oh you think?..get ready for your spanking kid.

You Quote:
1 Matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

My Reply:
Matthew 24:29 states that both sun and moon will be darkened. This compares to:

Zechariah 14:6 “And it will be in that day, there shall not be light; the glorious ones will shrink.”

Joel 2:10 “The earth shall quake before them, the heavens shall shake. The sun and moon shall grow dark, and the stars shall gather in their light.”

Joel 3:15 “The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall gather in their light.”

Each of these references are in direct relation to the events of the Day of YHWH. All the celestial lights go dark.

This is in contrast to:

Revelation 6:12 “And I saw when He opened the sixth seal. And behold, a great earthquake occurred. And the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair; and the moon became as blood;”

. . . which compares to:

Joel 2:31 “The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of YHWH.”

There is a very important difference between these two sets of descriptions.

The first set states that the sun “shall be darkened”, “shall grow dark”, and uses language that describes its physical state, that it becomes darkened, as Zechariah says, “there shall not be light”. This is telling us the physical state of the sun, and the other celestial lights, including the moon. Of course, the moon reflects the light from the sun, and if the sun becomes darkened, the moon will be darkened also.

The second set, however, uses phenomenal language, speaking in terms of appearance, “the sun became black”, the moon became blood”, as Joel prophesied would occur, not during the Day of YHWH, but before.

And, in fact, the phenomena prophesied, specifically, “the moon became blood”, cannot occur if the sun is actually darkened. If the sun were not emitting light, the moon would not either, of any color. The moon appears red during a lunar eclipse because the sun’s light is still reaching it. If the sun were to be darkened, none of the sun’s light would reach the moon, and it would not have any light at all.

The sun can appear black during an eclipse, for instance, without actually being darkened. If, for instance, a planetary mass of the correct size passed between the earth and the sun, at the correct distance, causing simultaneous solar and lunar eclipses, this would produce the phenomena described, a sun “black as sackcloth” and a “blood moon”.

On the other hand, causing the sun to stop emitting light could not produce the blood moon, only a darkened moon.

One might argue that God is not bound by physical laws, and I would of course agree. However, even so, a blood moon is emitting light. Zechariah prophesies there will not be light.

A "blood moon" means the sun must still be lit - not darkened.

Therefore, I have to conclude that these can only be separate events, having different direct causes.

In both the Old and New Testaments, the word elect means chosen. In Old testament times, the elect were God’s Chosen people, the Jews (Isaiah 45:4). During this age the Church is God’s elect (1 Peter 1:1), and after the Church is gone Tribulation believers will be His elect. (Matt. 24:22) In the Millennium, Israel will once again be called God’s elect (Isaiah 65:22)
The Angelic Gathering
To me, the most convincing reason why Matthew 24:31 is not a rapture statement is found in the fact that this verse includes citations from Old Testament passages, specifically Deuteronomy 30:4. These references clearly support the notion that this angelic gathering, which was predicted in the Older Testament, references a regathering of saved Jews who need to be returned to the land of Israel in which they will live for a thousand years during Christ' s Kingdom. Instead, of using El Al airlines, the Lord will use angelic carriers to transport His people back to their land. What is the support for this view? Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum tells us the following about the use of Old Testament citations in Matthew 24:31:

The Matthew passage is a rather simple summary of all that the prophets had to say about the second facet of Israel' s final restoration. Its purpose was to make clear that the world-wide regathering predicted by the prophets will be fulfilled only after the second coming.[15]

Dr. Renald Showers has done an excellent job collecting evidence and arguing for this view.[16] After noting that " from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other" means that " the elect will be gathered from all over the world at Christ' s coming," [17] Dr. Showers provides three lines of proof for his view as follows:

First, because of Israel' s persistent rebellion against God, He declared that He would scatter the Jews " into all the winds" (Ezek. 5:10, 12) or " toward all winds" (Ezek. 17:21). In Zechariah 2:6 God stated that He did scatter them abroad " as four winds of the heavens." . . . God did scatter the Jews all over the world.

Next, God also declared that in the future Israel would be gathered from the east, west, north, and south, " from the ends of the earth" (Isa. 43:5-7). We should note that in the context of this promise, God called Israel His " chosen" (vv. 10, 20).

. . . Just as Jesus indicated that the gathering of His elect from the four directions of the world will take place in conjunction with " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Greek text of Mt. 24:21), so Isaiah 27:13 teaches that the scattered children of Israel will be gathered to their homeland in conjunction with the blowing of " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Hebrew). . . .

Gerhard Friedrich wrote that in that future eschatological day " a great horn shall be blown (Is. 27:13)" and the exiled will be brought back by that signal. Again he asserted that in conjunction with the blowing of the great trumpet of Isaiah 27:13, " There follows the gathering of Israel and the return of the dispersed to Zion."

It is significant to note that Isaiah 27:13, which foretells this future regathering of Israel, is the only specific reference in the Old Testament to a " great" trumpet.

Although Isaiah 11:11-12 does not refer to a great trumpet, it is parallel to Isaiah 27:13 because it refers to the same regathering of Israel. In its context, this passage indicates that when the Messiah (a root of Jesse, vv. 1, 10) comes to rule and transform the world as an " ensign" (a banner), He will gather together the scattered remnant of His people Israel " from the four corners of the earth." [18]

What Jesus describes in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is the Jewish ingathering that will fulfill the prophetic aspects of the Feast of Trumpets for the nation of Israel. In fact, a prayer for this regathering of the children of Israel appears to this day in the Jewish Daily Prayer Book.[19]

Conclusion
It is quite clear that since the church is not mentioned in Matthew 24, then verse 31 cannot be a reference to the rapture of the church. Instead, as one studies the context and Old Testament references that our Lord alludes to, it becomes quite clear that He speaks of an end time regathering of elect Israel in order to return them to the land for the Millennium. At Christ' s first coming he wept over Jerusalem and expressed His desire to gather Israel to Himself " the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling" (Matt. 23:37). At His second coming, elect Israel will look upon Him whom they have pierced (Zech. 12:10) and say, " Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" (Ps. 118:26; Matt. 23:39). Maranatha!

Your Point 1 has been successfully refuted as error

pre-trib · Jul 27, 2010

You Quote:
2 1st Thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the resurrection of the just/rapture is at the 2nd coming. 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they they are Christ at his coming.

My Reply:
You make claims that this i this and that is that,..but you do not attempt to back it up other than specultion.
There is nothing,..absolutely nothing that you can present in scripture that would back up any of your claims.Since you know who I am,..then you know I can back up my statement.
Go and find your best mentor,..and I'll show this forum that He does not know what he thinks he knows,..Am I sure of myself,..you betcha!..The Lord has taught me well.And I give Him the Praise and the glory.

Let's see,..I'll call your bluff,..You said that 1st thess 4:13-18 disprove the pretrib rapture.
OH Really!

I'll show this forum,...that it instead proves a pre-trib,..but I an going to use a couple of verse's out of 1 Thessalonians 5 to prove my point.......and guess what,..there is nothing you can say or present to refute it.

We agree that 1 Thessalonians 4;16-17 is the rapture,..now to prove it is pre-trib.
1 Thessalonians 4;16-17 and chapter 5 are in chronological order.
1 Thessalonians 5;3 States:..."For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Now let's examine that verse........It tells a whole story....let's break it down.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety.....HhMmmmmmm

At the end of the tribulation,..no one can say that the world will say peace and safety,..instead,..the worlds armies are preparing for armageddon to fight Jesus at His return.
men will have the mark and will have boils.Revelation 16 water turns to blood,..men scorched,..then darkness and pain,..Hhhmmmmm....obviously this is not a time of peace and safety.....So, when would a time of peace and safety occur?...Hhhhmmmmm........Well the rapture will occur when a time of peace and safety comes to pass.Actually,there are three pictures that were painted that would reveal that general time era, that back each other up!
Oh!,..I know what you are going to say,...No One knows the Day or the Hour.
WEeeelll that is true,...BUT!!!,..The Lord has made it clear that the Bride would know and recognize the general time era!
1 Thessalonians 5;4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
As I pointed out earlier,..1 Thessalonians chapter 4 and 5 are in chronological order.
In chapter 4;16-17 we see the Rapture of the Bride.
Chapter 5;3 reveals that it occurrs during a time of peace and safety.And that as soon as that time of peace and safety come to pass,..then sudden destruction will come upon....."THEM"........and ......"THEY" shall not escape!
In other words,..as soon as the rapture comes to pass Sudden destuction comes upon them.........It did not say the Bride or "US",..because we were already gone!
The Word of God says,,..Pray that you may be accounted worthy to "ESCAPE" all these things and to stand before the Son of Man!
Now, for the second picture that backs up this first picture.

Your Point 2 has been successfully refuted as error

pre-trib · Jul 27, 2010

You Quote:
3 1st Cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation, the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over. 1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

My Reply:
Again,Allow me to ask you a question.
Do you have biblical knowledge of the cultural agricultural harvest of the Jews back in the Time before the Cross?
Jesus is a Jew, and He spoke things to the Jews that He knew very well that they would understand based on their culture.
If you try to perceive endtime prophecy through the eyes of a gentile,..you are not gonig to comprehend the ful picture of what the Lord had intended,....You must perceive through the eyes of a Jew to see thye whole picture intended.
If you receive not this free advice I have given you,..then I assume that it is pride that stands in your way.
If you are to understand "Trumpets and meaning,..you must learn Jewish culture.

Just as Jesus indicated that the gathering of His elect from the four directions of the world will take place in conjunction with " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Greek text of Mt. 24:21), so Isaiah 27:13 teaches that the scattered children of Israel will be gathered to their homeland in conjunction with the blowing of " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Hebrew). . . .

Gerhard Friedrich wrote that in that future eschatological day " a great horn shall be blown (Is. 27:13)" and the exiled will be brought back by that signal. Again he asserted that in conjunction with the blowing of the great trumpet of Isaiah 27:13, " There follows the gathering of Israel and the return of the dispersed to Zion."

It is significant to note that Isaiah 27:13, which foretells this future regathering of Israel, is the only specific reference in the Old Testament to a " great" trumpet.

Although Isaiah 11:11-12 does not refer to a great trumpet, it is parallel to Isaiah 27:13 because it refers to the same regathering of Israel. In its context, this passage indicates that when the Messiah (a root of Jesse, vv. 1, 10) comes to rule and transform the world as an " ensign" (a banner), He will gather together the scattered remnant of His people Israel " from the four corners of the earth." [18]

What Jesus describes in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is the Jewish ingathering that will fulfill the prophetic aspects of the Feast of Trumpets for the nation of Israel. In fact, a prayer for this regathering of the children of Israel appears to this day in the Jewish Daily Prayer Book.[19]

Your point 3 has been successfully refuted as error

pre-trib · Jul 27, 2010

You Quote:
4 Luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked (which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.
Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

My Reply:
Matthew 24;36
36“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,f but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
At the end of the tribulation,..there is no way that man will be marrying and giving in marriage,At the end of the tribulation,..no one can say that the world will say peace and safety,..instead,..the worlds armies are preparing for armageddon to fight Jesus at His return.
men will have the mark and will have boils.Revelation 16 water turns to blood,..men scorched,..then darkness and pain,..Hhhmmmmm....obviously this is not a time of peace and safety.....So, when would a time of peace and safety occur?...Hhhhmmmmm........Well the rapture will occur when a time of peace and safety comes to pass. But at he enf of the tribulation,..More than 2/3rds of the eath's population will be dead,..now one will be interested in marriage and life surely is not in a nomal mode such as two women grinding at the mill,..but instead are trying to avoid getting killed by the 100 pound chunks of ice falling from the sky......the Lord went one step further to make sure that you understood the the picture that He was presenting by saying that here would be two women grinding at the mill,..one tyaken the otrher left behind,..The Lord wanted you to know that the rapture would occur during what seemed like a normal life setting,..and that would be when the rapture occurred ...in a pre-trib setting.

Your point 4 has been sucessfully refuted as error

pre-trib · Jul 27, 2010

You Quote:
#5 John 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

My Reply:
Why does John 6 say that the resurrection is at the last day?
"And this is the will of Him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
Yes, there is a resurrection at the last day. When exactly does it happen? Revelation 20:4–6 talks about this resurrection. Notice that it happens after Christ sets foot upon earth, after He casts the beast into the lake of fire, after He destroys the Armageddon armies, and after Satan is cast into the bottomless pit. Therefore, this resurrection happens too late to be the rapture resurrection when we meet the Lord in the air.
You may take the "last day" of John 6 in either a strict sense or in an all-inclusive sense. If you prefer to take it in the strict sense, meaning the last day after the tribulation, then the resurrection of John 6 is the same resurrection as Revelation 20. On the other hand, if you take the last day of John 6 in the all-inclusive sense, then it may include both the rapture resurrection and the Revelation 20 resurrection.
Either way you choose to take it, if you consider John 6 hand in hand with Revelation 20, then John 6 does not prove a post-trib rapture.
We have been in the "last times" since the Day of Pentecost. We are now in the latter part of the last times.The last day is not a 24 hour period.
The Word "Caught Up is never used in revelation 20;4
Only the word "resurrection is ever used.the Following is the definition of resurrection:

The act of rising from the dead or returning to life.
The state of one who has returned to life.
The act of bringing back to practice, notice, or use; revival.
Resurrection Christianity.
The rising again of Jesus on the third day after the Crucifixion.
The rising again of the dead at the Last Judgment.

There is a difference in the word "Caught up as in rapture and Resurrection.
If all the dead and alive were caught up in revelatiion 20;4,..then there would not be anyone to repopulate the millennium.

Your point 5 has been sucessfully refuted as error.

pre-trib · Jul 27, 2010

You Quote:
6 Rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs as well as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

My Reply:
As I have pointed out earlier,.it is important that you become knowledgeable in the ancient jewish culture in the harvest agriculture.
The 1st resurrection is in type,....in kind

There are several resurrections in kind that are 1st resurrection.
First there was the resurrection of the Lord and also many Old Testament saints,..this was known as the first wave offering bast on agriculture of the Jews when they went to begin thier crop harvest.
Then there is the general harvest which represents the Alive and dead in the pre-trib rapture.
Then there are the gleanings that are left on the ground that are left for the poor to eat,..this is the resurrection of revelation 20;4
to get a clearer understanding of this explanation, read the following link,..it is explained by that I can explain it.
David Reagan

Your point 6 has benn successfully refuted as error.

Back to the drawing board for you.

There is not but one truth ,..that is the pre-trib doctrine.

pre-trib · Jul 27, 2010

VW said:

It is easy to confuse the resurrection with the Life. Jesus is both. Those who are resurrected in the first resurrection are raised from death. Jesus said that if we live and believe in Him, we will never die. We have died, and our lives are now hidden in God with Christ. I am not dead, so the resurrection is not for me, thank Christ Jesus.

Words of a very wise man

VW · Jul 27, 2010

forerunner said:

I would hope that you are looking forward to the resurrection for that is our true hope.

1st Thess 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Philippians 3
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Actually, that is not what scripture says. Rather it says that the redemption of our flesh is our hope. it says that when we see Him, we will become just as He is, and that everyone who has this hope fixed on Him makes himself pure just as He is pure. So, no, I am not waiting for the resurrection, because I am not dead. My resurrection is in His resurrection, and it has already happened.

Rapture= false teaching

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