Do We Have To Keep The Law?
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That is not my intent, nor my goal. I make mistakes. Once with you that I had to come back and correct on this forum in front of everyone, which given all the nice things you say about me was humiliating and very difficult.
Can you explain to me how my thinking is not Biblically correct in this post you referred to? Or the adulteress woman discussion we had?
To be fair, I have said over and over, not to listen to me, rather, do the work yourself and listen to the Word of God, all of them. And if you see my words don't line up with all scriptures, tell me, or ignore me.
But calling me a "commie" because I believe in the Word which became Flesh, and now that I somehow judge God's Words by "my" standards.
Come on G9.
I thought about that as well. What made me think was the meaning of forgive and the reason for the analogy.
I see your point of this example, the sin was also breaking mans law. But man doesn't have the mercy of Jesus. He can forgive me for stealing. Man can not, I will still pay the price for my transgression.
If I turned him in to man, did I forgive him, or just turn him in to Pilot?
If I truly forgave him, wouldn't it be as if he didn't do it? It was a sin against me, but because he confessed his sin and promised not to do it again, I would follow the instructions of the Christ and forgive him.
But if he did it again, and again, and again, that isn't repentance, therefore, there should be no forgiveness, IMO.
I'm inclined to agree with you on the example I used. I could have picked another more suitable to the point I was trying to make.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply
I never called you a commie. I said that you use argument techniques that are found in books such as the naked communist.
here is the thing- I agree with you about the woman caught in adultery. I do not think she slept around anymore either. but, the text tells us nothing else about her.
so, to say that she did not, put it out there as absolute fact as you do, and them chastise anyone who disagrees with your opinion, well that is wrong.
if it is not clear in the text, then it should not be presented as fact. a thing called honesty, which I believe is a value all who name the name of Christ should have.
I thought I said "I'll bet" she didn't sleep around anymore. But your point is well taken.
I thought I was using the same techniques as Jesus used, not the commies. But no problem, I'll take your comments under consideration.
Yes, it is true that there is not much more Text regarding this woman. I might add, however, that there is much more text regarding repentance in general.
Eph. 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
A good topic, thanks for your thoughtful reply.
Ok,I understand now how you meant It.I apologize.
No apology needed.
I should have explained my reasoning for the reply better.
you have a great day
Y'all know how it's written, "you who judge, do you not do the very same thing?"
Well since I'm being openly called a liar, let's look at the facts:
Luke 17:4-5
Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying 'I repent,' you must forgive them." The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"
Jesus doesn't say, 'judge for yourselves whether repentance is genuine'
He says plainly, if someone sins against you and comes back saying "I repent" then you must forgive them.
Seventy
Times
Seven
"Increase our faith!!"
Galatians 2:19-21
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
What changed? Why is the New Testament different from the Old Testament?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
What changed? Why is the New Testament different from the Old Testament?
John 8:3-11, "8:3, "And the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And having set her in the midst,"8:4, "they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery."8:5, "“And in the Torah Mosheh commanded us that such should be stoned. What then do You say?”"8:6, "And this they said, trying Him, so that they might accuse Him. But יהושע, bending down, wrote on the ground with the finger, as though He did not hear."8:7, "But as they kept on questioning Him, He straightened up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”"8:8, "And bending down again, He wrote on the ground."8:9, "And when they heard it, being reproved by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning from the older ones until the last. And יהושע was left alone, and the woman standing in the middle."8:10, "And יהושע, straightening up and seeing no one but the woman, said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Did no one condemn you?”"8:11, "And she said, “No one, Master.” And יהושע said to her, “Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.”
Leviticus 20:10-11, ‘And a man who commits adultery with the wife of another man, who commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor: the adulterer and the adulteress shall certainly be put to death.”
Where was the man that was committing adultery with this woman? The scribes and Pharisees did not include him but only the woman. The Law says “the adulterer and the adulteress shall certainly be put to death.” Therefore without bringing the man also a legal case could not even be started. The accusers themselves were guilty because they were trying to enforce half of a Law, making themselves unreliable witnesses. So no Yahshua/Jesus did not change the Law at any time, the Law was not being followed by the scribes and Pharisees.
Deuteronomy 17:6-7, “At the mouth of two or three witnesses shall he that is to die be put to death. He is not put to death by the mouth of one witness. The hand of the witnesses shall be first against him to put him to death, and the hand of all the people last. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.”
Deuteronomy 19:15-16, “One witness does not rise up against a man concerning any crookedness or any sin that he commits. At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses a matter is established.”
Numbers 35:30, “Whoever strikes a being, the murderer shall be executed by the mouth of witnesses, but one witness does not bear witness against someone to die.”
Exodus 23:1-2, “Do not bring a false report. Do not put your hand with the wrong to be a malicious witness. Do not follow a crowd to do evil, nor bear witness in a strife so as to turn aside after many, to turn aside what is right.”
Deuteronomy 19:16-18, “When a malicious witness rises up against any man to accuse him of turning aside, then both men who have the dispute shall stand before יהוה, before the priests and the judges who serve in those days. And the judges shall diligently search and see if the witness is a false witness, who has falsely accused his brother.”
but many will never even seek to understand any of this because it is easier to go "He changed the Law!" If He did He is a double talker:
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away." [/FONT]
He is not a double talker, He is THE PROPHET and the Messiah, problem is most people go with traditional understanding rather than Scriptual truth.
Leviticus 20:10-11, ‘And a man who commits adultery with the wife of another man, who commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor: the adulterer and the adulteress shall certainly be put to death.”
Where was the man that was committing adultery with this woman? The scribes and Pharisees did not include him but only the woman. The Law says “the adulterer and the adulteress shall certainly be put to death.” Therefore without bringing the man also a legal case could not even be started. The accusers themselves were guilty because they were trying to enforce half of a Law, making themselves unreliable witnesses. So no Yahshua/Jesus did not change the Law at any time, the Law was not being followed by the scribes and Pharisees.
Deuteronomy 17:6-7, “At the mouth of two or three witnesses shall he that is to die be put to death. He is not put to death by the mouth of one witness. The hand of the witnesses shall be first against him to put him to death, and the hand of all the people last. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.”
Deuteronomy 19:15-16, “One witness does not rise up against a man concerning any crookedness or any sin that he commits. At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses a matter is established.”
Numbers 35:30, “Whoever strikes a being, the murderer shall be executed by the mouth of witnesses, but one witness does not bear witness against someone to die.”
Exodus 23:1-2, “Do not bring a false report. Do not put your hand with the wrong to be a malicious witness. Do not follow a crowd to do evil, nor bear witness in a strife so as to turn aside after many, to turn aside what is right.”
Deuteronomy 19:16-18, “When a malicious witness rises up against any man to accuse him of turning aside, then both men who have the dispute shall stand before יהוה, before the priests and the judges who serve in those days. And the judges shall diligently search and see if the witness is a false witness, who has falsely accused his brother.”
but many will never even seek to understand any of this because it is easier to go "He changed the Law!" If He did He is a double talker:
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away." [/FONT]
He is not a double talker, He is THE PROPHET and the Messiah, problem is most people go with traditional understanding rather than Scriptual truth.
Hear the teaching of Jesus Christ from His own words in the Gospel.
He declares: He has not come to destroy the law and the prophets.-
He says He has come to fulfill them.
The curse of the law only was destroyed on the cross, that being death because of sin.
If you have no need of Christ as your Mediator then you do not sin, and you are the same as is Jesus.......but wait, only Christ is without sin, and that is to save us all from what we cannot do ourselves.
To say obeying the very few laws that remain being fulfilled in us all are not to be adhered to is saying we should not love, for they are all in love........they hang on love.
No, we will not be perfect until God, Himself has finished the work He began and is doing in each of us, but knowing this is not to justify deliberately disobeing. This is not be ing under the law, it is following what God has put in all of our hearts.......this is doing our best to do our due, that is, duty........ It is not a gift to God, it is our due.
Finally Jesus has warned all who teache against even the least of these laws and encourages breaking them will be least in Heaven.
Do not say obedience under grace is being under the law, that is strictly OSAS.......no way.
Hear the Word of the Lord from Him...........amen.
He declares: He has not come to destroy the law and the prophets.-
He says He has come to fulfill them.
The curse of the law only was destroyed on the cross, that being death because of sin.
If you have no need of Christ as your Mediator then you do not sin, and you are the same as is Jesus.......but wait, only Christ is without sin, and that is to save us all from what we cannot do ourselves.
To say obeying the very few laws that remain being fulfilled in us all are not to be adhered to is saying we should not love, for they are all in love........they hang on love.
No, we will not be perfect until God, Himself has finished the work He began and is doing in each of us, but knowing this is not to justify deliberately disobeing. This is not be ing under the law, it is following what God has put in all of our hearts.......this is doing our best to do our due, that is, duty........ It is not a gift to God, it is our due.
Finally Jesus has warned all who teache against even the least of these laws and encourages breaking them will be least in Heaven.
Do not say obedience under grace is being under the law, that is strictly OSAS.......no way.
Hear the Word of the Lord from Him...........amen.
Well, you are right about that one sentence, Jesus did say "Saying". I stand corrected. My apologies.
So let me make sure I understand your preaching,
3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
So the first time a brother transgresses against me, I "must" rebuke him, and he needs to actually repent before I forgive him. This agrees with everything Jesus ever said about repentance, as well as Paul.
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
But now, you preach this all changed?
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
If he sins against me many times in a day, he doesn't actually have to repent, he can just say " I repent". No rebukes, nor repentance.
So do you preach Jesus is contradicting Himself here. That He tells us one thing in one sentence, then changes everything in the next?
For some reason I don't think Jesus intended for you to use His one Word "Saying" to destroy His entire teaching regarding repentance.
To my shame, I should not have let you draw me into letting my frustration with your preaching to come out on my post.
nteresting Paul said that, he also said this:
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy, so I (Paul) worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you (Paul), yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Corinthians 7:19, "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of Yah?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), YHWH; for it is not subject to the Law of YHWH, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please YHWH."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:12, "Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ephesians 6:2-3, "Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with a promise: That it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Peter/Kepha 3:15-17, "and reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also our beloved brother Paul/Sha’ul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him, as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these matters, in which some are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the other Scriptures. You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the delusion of the lawless, but grow in the favor and knowledge of our Master and Savior [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah. To Him be the esteem both now and to a day that abides. Amĕn.”[/FONT]
I
I agree that you should stop slandering me, and pay attention to what Jesus actually says instead of what you imagine He says.
I don’t "preach"
I just repeat what He says.
In the same way you would decrease your libelous sin against myself and others if you paid attention to what we actually say instead of imagining things and putting them in my mouth.
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Deflect, ignore, omit. I learned my lesson.
Repent= Greek "metanoeo" = "to think differently" or afterwards, "reconsider" "To Transform" "change".
This is the definition of repent and the one I use. I didn't make it up.
I learned my lesson. Thank you Lord for the lesson.
R
Ralph-
Guest
You struggle with this truth that works are the sign of saving faith. Mailmandan talks at length about James 2. Since you do not listen to a word I say, he can explain to you that obedience to God is the sign of being born again and can address your question of how many sins and works of righteousness are required to show you to be saved or lost:
He is a 'once saved always saved' believer, so perhaps you'll listen to him. He has lots of posts addressing the habitual nature of sin in the unbeliever vs. the habitual nature of righteousness in the saved person and why it is that how you act shows whether you are saved or not.
The bottom line being, obedience to the commands of God IS required, because that's what saved people do now that they are transformed by the Spirit of God in salvation. The person who is not growing up into obedience to the commands of God in the law (the ones that remain to be literally kept) is not transformed by the Spirit of God in salvation.
You can TRY to emulate what you THINK a saved person does but that doesn't make you saved.
Ahhh... According to your faulty philosophy the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled SOME of the law but some of it remains for us to literally fulfill.
This shows a misunderstanding of Christ and what He has done for us.
Its kind of the core problem with judaizers and legalists. They call the Lord Jesus Christ a liar with their philosophy but they have so little understanding of the New Testament and Christ that they don't even know it.
The flesh (the ones that need to be literally kept) lusts against the Spirit (the fruit that we produce by faith in Christ) and they are contrary one to the other.
Galatians 5:16-18
[SUP]16 [/SUP]This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
What do they say? You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?
John 7:37-39
[SUP]37 [/SUP]In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
[SUP]39 [/SUP](But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
What do they say? You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?
John 7:37-39
[SUP]37 [/SUP]In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
[SUP]39 [/SUP](But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Fulfillment of the law by Jesus Christ is not destruction of the law. As long as there is sin, there is law, for sin is breaking a law.
Jesus fulfills the laws of morality, love in us by His righteousness, but it is ongoing until His Great Day when the work He began in us is finished and we are like He, perfected.
While He is working in you and me, we are not perfect. Knowing He is working in us we are grateful and do allwe are given to be able to do to obey the remaining laws.
Our righteousness, as seen by our Maker is the righteousness of Jesus Christ, never our own. God graces His children with works to perform..........only He and the disciple know what those works are, but they are known by the fruits they bear.
Children understand this for they want to be obedient to the loving Fasther. They need no human philosophy to have this desire, it comes with the new person made by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit..........What has beentaken from stone hs been engraed on the fleshy tablets of our hearts and our hearts tell us to obey ...............We are saved by grace only, not by the works which are our due.
Jesus fulfills the laws of morality, love in us by His righteousness, but it is ongoing until His Great Day when the work He began in us is finished and we are like He, perfected.
While He is working in you and me, we are not perfect. Knowing He is working in us we are grateful and do allwe are given to be able to do to obey the remaining laws.
Our righteousness, as seen by our Maker is the righteousness of Jesus Christ, never our own. God graces His children with works to perform..........only He and the disciple know what those works are, but they are known by the fruits they bear.
Children understand this for they want to be obedient to the loving Fasther. They need no human philosophy to have this desire, it comes with the new person made by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit..........What has beentaken from stone hs been engraed on the fleshy tablets of our hearts and our hearts tell us to obey ...............We are saved by grace only, not by the works which are our due.