Do We Have To Keep The Law?

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Budman said:
If obedience is required to retain salvation, then it's a work, and negates salvation as a gift.
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What you fail to grasp is growing up into obedience is the sign you have the free gift of the Holy Spirit in salvation. The person who says they know God but doesn't do what he says does not have the free gift of salvation. Haven't you been reading mailmandan's posts?
 
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Ralph- said:
Notice that these people will make an appeal for entrance based on their ministerial activities, yet Christ will reject them on the basis of their lawlessness-Matthew 7:23.

That describes the church pretty well. Lot's of church activity--leading Bible studies, attending church, proclaiming the grace of Christ, giving money to the church, getting involved in church programs, etc--but no obedience to the commands of Christ. They expect their sacrifice of service is going to somehow make up for their lack of obedience. Not going to happen. Saving faith is signified by obedience to God's commands, not by the abundance of your service in the church.


23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’-Matthew 7:23


The person who is sure they are saved by grace apart from works but who is living in lawlessness does not have the salvation by grace through faith apart from works he thinks he has and will be rejected by Christ when he returns. And no amount of service in the church or lip service to the glories of God's grace is going to change that.
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false understanding again from you ralph


21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(will of the Father)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(men pointing to their works so show they are justified)
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(He NEVER knew them.. they were never born again and do not have His righteousness imputed to them)


will of our Father

john 6


37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
Ralph- said:
What you fail to grasp is growing up into obedience is the sign you have the Holy Spirit in salvation. The person who says they know God but doesn't do what he says does not know him. Haven't you been reading mailmandan's posts?
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Obedience does not save us, end of story,

many people are obedient and do works, but have never met God. Let alone been saved by him so obedience does not prove anything
 
Unless the folks here who use the term strawman so freely can demonstrate how any posts are such, I am beginning to suspect they are just using the term to sound intelligent in place of truthful
 
NoNameMcgee said:
false understanding again from you ralph


21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(will of the Father)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(men pointing to their works so show they are justified)
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(He NEVER knew them.. they were never born again and do not have His righteousness imputed to them)


will of our Father

john 6


37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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Why did you suddenly make this about once saved always saved?

You need to get out of that meaningless rut and move onto maturity and into what really matters in the Christian faith.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
see here is part of the issue,

if you say we are to be obedient to christ, NO ONE would say a word

but if you say we have to follow the law. Thats a different story,

thats the issue, not obedience.

If people can not understand the argument, it will continue to be this way
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Ok, so you are saying when Jesus says;

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

and again;

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

and again;

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

He doesn't mean to actually DO what He says, or OBEY what He says, He really means to ??????????
 
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Ralph- said:
What you fail to grasp is growing up into obedience is the sign you have the free gift of the Holy Spirit in salvation. The person who says they know God but doesn't do what he says does not have the free gift of salvation. Haven't you been reading mailmandan's posts?
Click to expand...

Seriously, how can anyone prove the salvation of another? Good works? Once again, atheists and members of Christian cults can do plenty of good works. Works don't justify us before God AT ALL.

Let me ask you this, Ralph: If a born again Christian, because of some tragedy or another, out of anger, stops believing in God for, let's say an hour, or a day, or a week - do they lose their salvation and must get saved again?

Or, do they lose their salvation with no hope of ever being saved again?
 
By your own mouth you are saying you cannot be accepted as a brother because your confession of Jesus Christ is not valid. You do confess Jesus Christ as god and our Salvation I hope...........

Budman said:
Seriously, how can anyone prove the salvation of another? Good works? Once again, atheists and members of Christian cults can do plenty of good works. Works don't justify us before God AT ALL.

Let me ask you this, Ralph: If a born again Christian, because of some tragedy or another, out of anger, stops believing in God for, let's say an hour, or a day, or a week - do they lose their salvation and must get saved again?

Or, do they lose their salvation with no hope of ever being saved again?
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Ralph- said:
Why did you suddenly make this about once saved always saved?

You need to get out of that meaningless rut and move onto maturity and into what really matters in the Christian faith.
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when you post an out of context verse trying to point yo the law to justify

i will explain it if i see it
 
JaumeJ said:
By your own mouth you are saying you cannot be accepted as a brother because your confession of Jesus Christ is not valid. You do confess Jesus Christ as god and our Salvation I hope...........
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Um......what? :confused:
 
eternally-gratefull said:
Obedience does not save us, end of story,
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Everybody knows this.

This seems to be the only thing the church knows about Christianity. And they take false comfort out of it thinking they are good with God for reminding everybody about it. They will be among the people who are turned away from Christ when he returns. They talk a good talk in all kinds of ministry outreaches but they are lawless and do not live moral lives for Him.



eternally-gratefull said:

many people are obedient and do works, but have never met God. Let alone been saved by him so obedience does not prove anything
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We need to go with what the Bible says, not what you say.

Don't be deceived, people--the person who does not obey Christ is not born again:


make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."-1 John 3:7,8,10


People, lets go with what John says, not what we are told by so many people in the church.
 
JaumeJ said:
Unless the folks here who use the term strawman so freely can demonstrate how any posts are such, I am beginning to suspect they are just using the term to sound intelligent in place of truthful
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i used it to point out how your argument was false

you were swinging at air to try and say a man is saved by his own performance according to the law
 
We are taught in the epistles to keep our minds on all things good and pleasant, and to believe all things. This does not refer to lies but to believe all things to which the Spirit witnesses. When anyone confesses Jesus Christ as God ad Savior, I tend to believe that person........as for that person's walk with the Lord, only God knows the details....

Budman said:
Seriously, how can anyone prove the salvation of another? Good works? Once again, atheists and members of Christian cults can do plenty of good works. Works don't justify us before God AT ALL.

Let me ask you this, Ralph: If a born again Christian, because of some tragedy or another, out of anger, stops believing in God for, let's say an hour, or a day, or a week - do they lose their salvation and must get saved again?

Or, do they lose their salvation with no hope of ever being saved again?
Click to expand...
 
Budman said:
Let me ask you this, Ralph: If a born again Christian, because of some tragedy or another, out of anger, stops believing in God for, let's say an hour, or a day, or a week - do they lose their salvation and must get saved again?
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Ultimately, that's God's call.

I'm convinced that God is patient and long suffering and will make the attempt to bring them back to believing in Christ. But only God knows how long he will do that before he turns them over to their unbelief.



Budman said:
Or, do they lose their salvation with no hope of ever being saved again?
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Once God turns you over to your unbelief (at whatever point he decides to do that) you can not come back. It's over. Finished. All you have left to look forward to is the coming judgment and destruction of the unbelieving. Which only makes sense because you have rejected the only thing that can rescue you from the coming judgment--the blood of Christ. There is no other sacrifice available to save a person from the coming judgment.
 
When you are able to cut and pste I said that here, by all means do so, but until then that is a lie and the makes you untrustworthy, perhaps using a strawman argument....


NoNameMcgee said:
i used it to point out how your argument was false

you were swinging at air to try and say a man is saved by his own performance according to the law
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JaumeJ said:
We are taught in the epistles to keep our minds on all things good and pleasant, and to believe all things. This does not refer to lies but to believe all things to which the Spirit witnesses. When anyone confesses Jesus Christ as God ad Savior, I tend to believe that person........as for that person's walk with the Lord, only God knows the details....
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so, you say that we are " taught in the epistles "... I thought you thought reading them was optional . I quoted your words several posts back, in case you forgot them.

maybe unconfuse yourself , because you fall all over your own words.
 
Ralph- said:
Ultimately, that's God's call.

I'm convinced that God is patient and long suffering and will make the attempt to bring them back to believing in Christ. But only God knows how long he will do that before he turns them over to their unbelief.




Once God turns you over to your unbelief (at whatever point he decides to do that) you can not come back. It's over. Finished. All you have left to look forward to is the coming judgment and destruction of the unbelieving. Which only makes sense because you have rejected the only thing that can rescue you from the coming judgment--the blood of Christ. There is no other sacrifice available to save a person from the coming judgment.
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Can you provide one example from Scripture where a born again believer lost their salvation for any reason?
 
gb9 said:
on nov. 10 of last year, you said " it does not matter what Paul has to say if our Lord , Jesus , has taught us all we need to know...... ". the thread is Paul exposes false applications of the Law . post # 32.

so there, once again a direct quote . if you believe this, that is your opinion . if you think that saying parts of Paul's teachings do not matter, then you can think that. but, please stop saying you did not say it. and accusing me of bearing false witness.
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I put this here so if ( when ) Jamie j denies saying this quote, it is easy access to see his words.
 
What you have pasted from part of my post is not false, but your use of the word 2strawman" here is completely wrong,.

I suppose you OSAS folks will say just aabout anything to get you way, but it will never prove you true.


NoNameMcgee said:
the ridiculous straw man i replied to originally
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