Not By Works

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Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 13:15, “For I (Jesus) gave you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.”

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Peter 2:21, “This is, in fact, what you were called to do, because Christ also suffered for you and left an example for you to follow in His steps.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 1:26, “The one who says that he abides in him must live the same way he (Jesus) himself lived.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”[/FONT]
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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Is obedience the only bad thing a believer can do?

2 Peter 2:20-22, “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Savior יהושע Messiah, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the set-apart Command delivered unto them. For them the proverb has proved true, “A dog returns to his own vomit,” (Pro 26:11) and, “A washed sow returns to her rolling in the mud.”
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS​

Isaiah 53:11 - He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
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romans 3

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
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Romans 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

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2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

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Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

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Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

___________

we are saved by grace through faith....


and when we (born again sons and daughters of God)
are judged

we will also be judged by the same standard as EVERYONE

the difference between the saved
and unsaved

is the unsaved have their own righteousness that they will be judged by

those covered by the sacrifice of Jesus will be judged by His in regards to salvation...

-------------------


TO ALL WHO BELIEVE​

Acts 13:39
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses

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John 3:15-17
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

--------------


BEING BORN FROM ABOVE PRODUCES SONS, NOT PRETENDERS WHO STOP BELIEVING​



hebrews 10


35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
_____________


john 6


28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

___________


1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us
sham would you mind telling me what you believe is wrong with anything said here?
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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not completely even if you are correct, as it shows doing what He said...

also that word H8451 is indeed Torah, and Noah had clean food laws.... fact is we do not know, but I do know

1 YHWH does not change

2 Many passages pre Moses show it possible, inculding the book of Job, the oldest book written...
Complete hogwash....

You are claiming that Abraham had knowledge of the Torah BEFORE the Torah was given to Moses??!!!????
And you are doing this quite without ANY biblical evidence (the book of Job does not help here)...

In other words your beliefs are based on fantasy!
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
sham would you mind telling me what you believe is wrong with anything said here?
ok but first this is the second time you called me "sham" it not cute and we talked about this before, save the I didnt know..

DidI say anythign was wrong with it or did I pose a question that you did not answer?

Nothing is wrong with it, the only additional comment I would make other than what I alredy have is that verses do not erase other verses and isolating any passages for or against any doctrine is false. I not saying you are doing this but the entire word is needed to be understood to grasp the plan of the Most High. It takes many years and none are expected to know it overnight, He leads us.

the reason I gave a fully reply is so you could be certian where I stand, and yes I did give direct answer to your question. I would like for you to answer mine;

do these "not of us"

preach for or against doing wha the Messiah said?

John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Complete hogwash....

You are claiming that Abraham had knowledge of the Torah BEFORE the Torah was given to Moses??!!!????
And you are doing this quite without ANY biblical evidence (the book of Job does not help here)...

In other words your beliefs are based on fantasy!
You are the only one expousing hogwash, you supoply no Scrupture to support your view.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Genesis 26:4-5, “And I shall increase your seed like the stars of the heavens, and I shall give all these lands to your seed. And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torah.”

"torah" is word 8451. torah ►
Strong's Concordance
torah: direction, instruction, law
Original Word: תּוֹרָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: torah
Phonetic Spelling: (to-raw')
Short Definition: law

how did Noah have clean food/animal laws before Moses?

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Genesis 7:1-2, "Then YHWH said to Noah: Come into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen you righteous before Me in this generation. You shall take with you seven pairs of every clean animal, a male and his female; two of animals that are unclean, a male and his female;"

Leviticus 11:1-2, "And
YHWH spoke to Mosheh and Aaron, saying to them: Speak to the children of Israyl, saying; These are the animals you may eat among all the beasts upon the land" 43-44, "You shall not make yourselves abominable with any creature that moves about on the ground. Do not defile yourselves by means of them, nor be made unclean by them. I am YHWH your Heavenly Father. You shall therefore consecrate and sanctify yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy. Neither shall you defile yourselves with any creature that moves about on the ground." 46-47, "This is the Law of the animals, and the birds, and every living thing that moves in the waters, and every creature that moves about on the ground. You must distinguish between the unclean and the clean--between the animal that may be eaten, and the animal that may not be eaten."


and why does Job not count?

phh you dont seem to understand when the Hebrews were captive in Egypt they forgot the Way of the Creator, even His name and this is fact because we can see it being called upon, by name by at least 2 post Adam pre Moses people...
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
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graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
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You are the only one expousing hogwash, you supply no Scrupture to support your view.
What Scripture can I supply for something that does NOT exist?????

The burden of proof is on YOU!
Please show me the texts where Abraham, or anyone else for that matter, receives the Torah (all 613 laws).
I would love to see the proof...
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
What Scripture can I supply for something that does NOT exist?????

The burden of proof is on YOU!
Please show me the texts where Abraham, or anyone else for that matter, receives the Torah (all 613 laws).
I would love to see the proof...
you are making claims saying they are true you also have to prove it otherwise they are just claimms not fact...

As I said in my first reply we do not know all or what Laws thay had but there is evidence that the did indded have His Laws, we don't know the extent...

here are 2 examples, tell me how Noah had clean food/animal Laws? but there was no Law?

You are the only one expousing hogwash, you supoply no Scrupture to support your view.

Genesis 26:4-5, “And I shall increase your seed like the stars of the heavens, and I shall give all these lands to your seed. And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torah.”

"torah" is word 8451. torah ►
Strong's Concordance
torah: direction, instruction, law
Original Word: תּוֹרָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: torah
Phonetic Spelling: (to-raw')
Short Definition: law

how did Noah have clean food/animal laws before Moses?


Genesis 7:1-2, "Then YHWH said to Noah: Come into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen you righteous before Me in this generation. You shall take with you seven pairs of every clean animal, a male and his female; two of animals that are unclean, a male and his female;"

Leviticus 11:1-2, "And
YHWH spoke to Mosheh and Aaron, saying to them: Speak to the children of Israyl, saying; These are the animals you may eat among all the beasts upon the land" 43-44, "You shall not make yourselves abominable with any creature that moves about on the ground. Do not defile yourselves by means of them, nor be made unclean by them. I am YHWH your Heavenly Father. You shall therefore consecrate and sanctify yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy. Neither shall you defile yourselves with any creature that moves about on the ground." 46-47, "This is the Law of the animals, and the birds, and every living thing that moves in the waters, and every creature that moves about on the ground. You must distinguish between the unclean and the clean--between the animal that may be eaten, and the animal that may not be eaten."


and why does Job not count?

phh you dont seem to understand when the Hebrews were captive in Egypt they forgot the Way of the Creator, even His name and this is fact because we can see it being called upon, by name by at least 2 post Adam pre Moses people...



 
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Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
So what.....O.T. saints were saved the same way N.T. saints are....and law keeping is not it......second....if you think for one second that this indicates they kept the law....not only is that foolish, but also reeks of ignorance! There is not a just man upon the earth that does good and sins not....your law keeping drivel is exactly that....drivel!
 
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Genesis 26:5, “Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my (H8451) Laws.”[/FONT]
Therefore we conclude a man is justified by faith without the deeds/works of the law.

Yout faux Hebrew roots law keeping drivel blinds your mind to the truth man!

No one keeps it and no one is made righteous before God by attempting to keep that which is not keepable!
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
ok but first this is the second time you called me "sham" it not cute and we talked about this before, save the I didnt know..
you are right we did speak of this before

i actually remembered after i clicked send

not trying to be insulting and im sorry for not taking more care

can i please call you "hiz" from now on?


DidI say anythign was wrong with it or did I pose a question that you did not answer?
nope and nope... the reason i spoke to you is because i thought you were speaking of a way other than by grace through faith being what saves a man....

Nothing is wrong with it, the only additional comment I would make other than what I alredy have is that verses do not erase other verses and isolating any passages for or against any doctrine is false.
i completely agree with you
and would also add context matters as much as having the entire inspired written word


I not saying you are doing this but the entire word is needed to be understood to grasp the plan of the Most High. It takes many years and none are expected to know it overnight, He leads us.
absolutely

after one is born from above
and a new creation his eyes can see and ears can hear

but he is not yet filled with the same wisdom he will have after a life of seeking his Father... God doesnt just quit providing for His children

teaches many lessons through His inspired written word
and through our walk with Him as a new creation


the reason I gave a fully reply is so you could be certian where I stand, and yes I did give direct answer to your question. I would like for you to answer mine;
i have no issue with your answer so far... and thank you



do these "not of us"

preach for or against doing wha the Messiah said?
those who are not of us

are those He never knew

these are those who have not yet been given a quickened spirit


this will manifest to the world as

the self righteous- those who seek to establish their own righteousness while not submitting to His. (romans 9-10)


the reprobate - (those who seemed to have a KNOWLEDGE of Him and turn from it completely to live in sin... not being transformed the knowledge just made them want to turn from Him completely... so they were given over)

everyone who worships another god (false god)

or everyone who says there is no God....


and everything in between.... just those who have no genuine faith and have not been made new and not been imputed with the righteousness of Jesus
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
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you are making claims saying they are true you also have to prove it otherwise they are just claimms not fact...

As I said in my first reply we do not know all or what Laws thay had but there is evidence that the did indded have His Laws, we don't know the extent...

here are 2 examples, tell me how Noah had clean food/animal Laws? but there was no Law?
Please show me the texts where ANYONE prior to Moses received the Torah (the 613 laws that were given to Moses).
So far, to call what you have provided does not even constitute circumstantial evidence.

The proof of my claims is this: No-one prior to Moses received the Torah, because there is NO Biblical record of such an event.
If such an event is NOT recorded in the Bible, it follows, logically, that I cannot quote any texts, to prove that such an event is NOT recorded! So, not only is your theology confused, your knowledge of simple logic is lacking too...

You are the one making the claim that Abraham, and all the other patriarchs, received and knew the Torah (613 laws), however you quite unable to prove it...
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
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IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS​


Isaiah 53:11 -
He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Is. 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Yes, the Word which became Flesh died to pay the penalty we incurred upon ourselves for our rebellion and hatred or indifference for the instructions of our Creator. Are we to continue in this rebellion? Or do we "Repent", "Turn to God" and DO WORKS Worthy of repentance? Do we stay the person who directs our own footsteps, or do we "change" and become a new man who allows the Christ to direct our footsteps.

Isaiah said a lot of things. Do you believe all his Word's, or just some of them.

Is. 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.


romans 3

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Why do you begin in the 3rd Chapter of Romans? Wouldn't it be prudent to begin teaching about Paul's words in the start of Romans? How can you understand a book if you start reading in the middle of it?

Rom. 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Paul said a lot of things as did Isaiah. Do you believe all of Paul's Word's, or just a few.

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Are these the same folks Isaiah said had "turned to their own way"?

Paul also said in the chapter before the one you started in:

Rom. 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

It seems it would be good to have a clear understanding of these words of Paul before moving on, Yes?

He also said;

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Isn't this the same thing Isaiah said above?

I believe we should accept ALL the Word's of the Bible in order to understand it. Not just those words that can be used to further man's religious traditions.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Therefore we conclude a man is justified by faith without the deeds/works of the law.

Yout faux Hebrew roots law keeping drivel blinds your mind to the truth man!

No one keeps it and no one is made righteous before God by attempting to keep that which is not keepable!
where did I say man was justified by works?

you are the one who freaks out anytime obedience is propmoted...

Is it right to promote doing what the Messiah said or to call promoting doing what He said justified by works?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Please show me the texts where ANYONE prior to Moses received the Torah (the 613 laws that were given to Moses).
So far, to call what you have provided does not even constitute circumstantial evidence.

The proof of my claims is this: No-one prior to Moses received the Torah, because there is NO Biblical record of such an event.
If such an event is NOT recorded in the Bible, it follows, logically, that I cannot quote any texts, to prove that such an event is NOT recorded! So, not only is your theology confused, your knowledge of simple logic is lacking too...

You are the one making the claim that Abraham, and all the other patriarchs, received and knew the Torah (613 laws), however you quite unable to prove it...

Genesis 26:4-5, “And I shall increase your seed like the stars of the heavens, and I shall give all these lands to your seed. And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torah.”

"torah" is word 8451. torah ►
Strong's Concordance
torah: direction, instruction, law
Original Word: תּוֹרָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: torah
Phonetic Spelling: (to-raw')
Short Definition: law

how did Noah have clean food/animal laws before Moses?


Genesis 7:1-2, "Then YHWH said to Noah: Come into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen you righteous before Me in this generation. You shall take with you seven pairs of every clean animal, a male and his female; two of animals that are unclean, a male and his female;"

Leviticus 11:1-2, "And
YHWH spoke to Mosheh and Aaron, saying to them: Speak to the children of Israyl, saying; These are the animals you may eat among all the beasts upon the land" 43-44, "You shall not make yourselves abominable with any creature that moves about on the ground. Do not defile yourselves by means of them, nor be made unclean by them. I am YHWH your Heavenly Father. You shall therefore consecrate and sanctify yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy. Neither shall you defile yourselves with any creature that moves about on the ground." 46-47, "This is the Law of the animals, and the birds, and every living thing that moves in the waters, and every creature that moves about on the ground. You must distinguish between the unclean and the clean--between the animal that may be eaten, and the animal that may not be eaten."
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
So what.....O.T. saints were saved the same way N.T. saints are....and law keeping is not it......second....if you think for one second that this indicates they kept the law....not only is that foolish, but also reeks of ignorance! There is not a just man upon the earth that does good and sins not....your law keeping drivel is exactly that....drivel!
I didn't write the scriptures Decon, I just believe in them.

I'm sure Zechariahs was forgiven by the same Blood that forgave Abraham, and for the same reason. They both believed in the Word which became Flesh enough to follow His instructions. This is what Faith is, at least according to the Word of God.

Your unbelief means nothing as it is written;

Rom. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? (So what) shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
Genesis 26:4-5, “And I shall increase your seed like the stars of the heavens, and I shall give all these lands to your seed. And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torah.”

"torah" is word 8451. torah ►
Strong's Concordance
torah: direction, instruction, law
Original Word: תּוֹרָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: torah
Phonetic Spelling: (to-raw')
Short Definition: law

how did Noah have clean food/animal laws before Moses?


Genesis 7:1-2, "Then YHWH said to Noah: Come into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen you righteous before Me in this generation. You shall take with you seven pairs of every clean animal, a male and his female; two of animals that are unclean, a male and his female;"

Leviticus 11:1-2, "And
YHWH spoke to Mosheh and Aaron, saying to them: Speak to the children of Israyl, saying; These are the animals you may eat among all the beasts upon the land" 43-44, "You shall not make yourselves abominable with any creature that moves about on the ground. Do not defile yourselves by means of them, nor be made unclean by them. I am YHWH your Heavenly Father. You shall therefore consecrate and sanctify yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy. Neither shall you defile yourselves with any creature that moves about on the ground." 46-47, "This is the Law of the animals, and the birds, and every living thing that moves in the waters, and every creature that moves about on the ground. You must distinguish between the unclean and the clean--between the animal that may be eaten, and the animal that may not be eaten."
Bottom-line: you cannot prove that ANYONE prior to Moses either received or knew the Torah.
Nothing you have provided so far even warrants being called circumstantial evidence...

Perhaps you might consider this: How did stone-age tribes, say those discovered in the Amazon over the last two hundred years, with no prior outside contact with the world, know that murder was wrong?
None of them ever knew the Torah, much less that such a thing even existed yet they knew that murder was wrong...
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Bottom-line: you cannot prove that ANYONE prior to Moses either received or knew the Torah.
Nothing you have provided so far even warrants being called circumstantial evidence...

Perhaps you might consider this: How did stone-age tribes, say those discovered in the Amazon over the last two hundred years, with no prior outside contact with the world, know that murder was wrong?
None of them ever knew the Torah, much less that such a thing even existed yet they knew that murder was wrong...
Well this passage says Abraham kept the Torah/Law/Instructions...

Genesis 26:4-5, “And I shall increase your seed like the stars of the heavens, and I shall give all these lands to your seed. And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torah.”

"torah" is word 8451. torah ►
Strong's Concordance
torah: direction, instruction, law
Original Word: תּוֹרָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: torah
Phonetic Spelling: (to-raw')
Short Definition: law

and you will not even consider what it might mean you just talk over it, and the fact the Noah had clean food/animal Laws which you also ignore...

So I dont see how this conversation is built upon any real search for what the Word says
 
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Bottom-line: you cannot prove that ANYONE prior to Moses either received or knew the Torah.
Nothing you have provided so far even warrants being called circumstantial evidence...

Perhaps you might consider this: How did stone-age tribes, say those discovered in the Amazon over the last two hundred years, with no prior outside contact with the world, know that murder was wrong?
None of them ever knew the Torah, much less that such a thing even existed yet they knew that murder was wrong...
Amen.....all of the law keepers will find out one daythat they kept nothing but their own condemnation.

LAW OR GRACE <--one or the other and a blend of the two = double cursed false gospel.....
 
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where did I say man was justified by works?

you are the one who freaks out anytime obedience is propmoted...

Is it right to promote doing what the Messiah said or to call promoting doing what He said justified by works?
Do you keep the law? Nope and I freak out about nothing ,but for sure stand against your law keeping drivel......

Do you believe it helps keep you saved or must be maitained to keep salvation...?