Death and Dying, part deux

[Cee]

Hi cee! Haven't seen you in a while. Hope you're doing well!
Job does not show God permitting satan to bring evil to touch Job because satan has free will. It shows God giving permission to satan to touch Job (with strict limits given each time). That doesn't say that satan may bring any harms/evils/buffetings to Job simply because satan has the free will to do so. He had to have permission. But this does not mean that God caused satan to do evil or commit atrocities to the man. Permitting something and being the cause of something are not the same thing.

I'm fantastic! Hope you're doing well also!

I have a different view on Job which I've shared before, but not many agree. But to address what you said, I do agree God did put limits on his man Job. And God further worked it out for good because Job ended up repenting of his lack of understanding. And I fully agree that God doesn't cause evil, I believe when Scripture says I "create evil" the idea is that by creating man, He created evil. But to take it even even further like I said in the other post, I do think it's sometimes a theological error to try to define God through only an OT lens without a NT confirmation.

What's intriguing to me about the relationship of the enemy and God, is that Jesus actually tricked him into crucifying him. It doesn't say that the enemy was forced to do it. But rather God on the sly caused even the death of His Son to work out for good.

“….the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age understood; for if they had understood it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” – I Corinthians 2:8

 

[Cee]

While it may be true that the unregenerated wo/man does not seek God, people do earnestly seek truth, and Jesus Christ is the embodiment of Truth, and the express image of the invisible God. God says those who seek Him will find Him, so it is a bit of a sticky wicket to say nobody really seeks Him, because we rely on the promises of God, and trust Him to keep His Word And, the fact of the matter is, God does reveal Himself to those who are seeking. There would be little point in encouraging others in that regard if He did not.

Yes, I agree again, I meant Enoch didn't have Christ, because Christ hadn't yet come. And we are in a better covenant with Him now. So it's interesting because Scripture does say "none seek after God" referring to all mankind's need for Christ. But even so a lot people would agree Enoch didn't see death.

 

[Magenta]

I agree and hear you, Magenta! I am using that specific phrasing as nod to the Scripture here:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

And in case that Scripture was in someone's mind, I wanted to address that potential objection. However, I totally agree with you. God called His creation "good". And He called us, "very good".

I personally do feel we run into issues when we try to interpret the character of God through only an OT lens. Because Jesus explicitly says He came to reveal the Father which means the Jews didn't have the complete picture of Him. Sometimes God gives Himself attributes to relate with man, and to speak on his current level, not because they are the compete embodiment of Himself.

But we find as God gives us greater revelation of Himself, He speaks to us differently each time. Increasing the understanding of His goodness and His plan for all of man. It's a continual revelation that we can sometimes miss if we try to put God in a theology box. Anyways, sorry for my tangent.

My own tangent is to point out that God did not
proclaim creation "very good" until after woman was made

 

[preacher4truth]

Lies..............................

Yep ..............

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Here is the belief that God causes men to do evil



SovereignGrace #61

Well, I'd have to read the whole post and the surrounding conversation, but just from that one piece of his words, it appears the man was saying (or asking rhetorically) if God was in control in each of those mens lives even when, and while, evils came to them, were permitted, or happened. The result in the case of Job and in the case of Jesus, shows me that God was in fact working and accomplishing His will in those mens lives despite what the evil intentions of satan or men were. Otherwise, the end result would be just vanity and suffering for no good reason whatsoever. And that's just not God!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes, I agree again, I meant Enoch didn't have Christ, because Christ hadn't yet come. And we are in a better covenant with Him now. So it's interesting because Scripture does say "none seek after God" referring to all mankind's need for Christ. But even so a lot people would agree Enoch didn't see death.

This is why some think he will be one of the two witnesses of revelation who are killed - because scripture said it is appointed to men to die once, so he will have to die.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I'm fantastic! Hope you're doing well also!

I have a different view on Job which I've shared before, but not many agree. But to address what you said, I do agree God did put limits on his man Job. And God further worked it out for good because Job ended up repenting of his lack of understanding. And I fully agree that God doesn't cause evil, I believe when Scripture says I "create evil" the idea is that by creating man, He created evil. But to take it even even further like I said in the other post, I do think it's sometimes a theological error to try to define God through only an OT lens without a NT confirmation.

What's intriguing to me about the relationship of the enemy and God, is that Jesus actually tricked him into crucifying him. It doesn't say that the enemy was forced to do it. But rather God on the sly caused even the death of His Son to work out for good.

“….the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age understood; for if they had understood it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” – I Corinthians 2:8

I have to go find that verse...I think my NLT might say...I create darkness.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And of course it makes perfect sense to me that He creates darkness because He turns from someone or casts them from His presence, which is bright light.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Still reading his commentary on acts, trying to find that quote in his context and intended meaning. Slow going but I'm determined to find it!

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes please go back and read.

It is not about what events God uses but what God actually causes to happen, therein is a big difference.

What I read in context was that God caused the men to do what they did to Jesus....let me know if you read otherwise.

Well, I'd have to read the whole post and the surrounding conversation, but just from that one piece of his words, it appears the man was saying (or asking rhetorically) if God was in control in each of those mens lives even when, and while, evils came to them, were permitted, or happened. The result in the case of Job and in the case of Jesus, shows me that God was in fact working and accomplishing His will in those mens lives despite what the evil intentions of satan or men were. Otherwise, the end result would be just vanity and suffering for no good reason whatsoever. And that's just not God!

 

[shrume]

I don't understand what the beef is with what I've said. I trust God when He says He works all things for my good. I can't comprehend why that would disturb anyone...

Many people use Rom 8:28 in support of their belief that "all things work together for good", believing that no matter what happens to you, whether good or bad, God works it for good. This is based on the way the verse is translated in several versions of the Bible.

(KJV) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

(ESV) And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

...there are others.

Another legitimate translation of the Greek is as the NIV has it:

(NIV) And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Those two translations are saying completely different things. I believe the NIV has it correct. There are lots of things that are not good at all that can happen to us, but in each of them, God works for our good. He helps us out when terrible things happen.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Shrume, I don't see those translations as being wildly different in meaning...and there are many other supporting verses too, like...He catches evil mens feet in the net they meant for others. This is to take the evil one meant for someone else and to trip they themselves in it!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes please go back and read.

It is not about what events God uses but what God actually causes to happen, therein is a big difference.

What I read in context was that God caused the men to do what they did to Jesus....let me know if you read otherwise.

Gaah! I'm going to find calvins quote first and then I'll do it! You're giving me too much work!

 

[Nehemiah6]

My own tangent is to point out that God did not proclaim creation "very good" until after woman was made

So you believe that this was the key to a perfect creation? And then that same woman botched everything?

 

[shrume]

Shrume, I don't see those translations as being wildly different in meaning...and there are many other supporting verses too, like...He catches evil mens feet in the net they meant for others. This is to take the evil one meant for someone else and to trip they themselves in it!

(KJV) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

That is saying that no matter what happens to you, "all things work together for good". IE: even evil, horrible things somehow turn out good. It's not true always.

(NIV) And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

That is saying that no matter what happens to you, God is working for the good of His people.

To me, the comfort of understanding it that way is that no matter what we are going through, we can be sure of this: God is working for the good of those who love Him.

 

[shrume]

So you believe that this was the key to a perfect creation? And then that same woman botched everything?

The woman was deceived. Adam willingly sinned.

..just sayin'.

 

[Magenta]

So you believe that this was the key to a perfect creation? And then that same woman botched everything?

Did I use the word "perfect"? No, I did not, because God did not.

 

[Magenta]

So you believe that this was the key to a perfect creation? And then that same woman botched everything?

God's Word says that sin and death entered the world through one man (Adam). Not Eve.

 

[Ugly]

I've yet to understand why everyone is so focused on bla e shifting and then twisting it into a gender issue. Who gives a crap? They both screwed up. And we're all paying the price for Their choices. Anyone who complicates it further is just starting problems where there should be none.

 

[Magenta]

I've yet to understand why everyone is so focused on bla e shifting and then twisting it into a gender issue. Who gives a crap? They both screwed up. And we're all paying the price for Their choices. Anyone who complicates it further is just starting problems where there should be none.

I care because it is what Scripture says.