Nope, the other side is not saying what you think. I don't know how I will die and really don't care how I die. If I am killed by a drunk driver, serial killer, rapist or terrorist - doesn't matter. I'm going to die for "it is appointed unto men once to die". I've stated what I have the problem with . . . God giving "authority" for evil to happen to people. You stated in Post #88 - And of course it makes perfect sense to me that He creates darkness because He turns from someone or casts them from His presence, which is bright light. [the verse is Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster;] - My question would be - How can God create darkness in the sense of evil when there is no darkness in him at all? Isn't that a contradiction?
I don't understand all things BUT I know that all scripture should flow and be in harmony throughout the Bible so maybe God created evil in the sense that his created being - Lucifer, who was created perfect in every way and just a step under God himself, CHOSE disobedience and rebellion - when he did - evil was created (You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.)
Then he tempted mankind that they could "be like gods" eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and they fell - sin and death entered a world where it never was before. Since the fall of mankind - the devil, our adversary, has been given authority - authority to bruise the heel of the seed of the woman and consequently, the church (body of Christ) as well - until the time of his "head being crushed" - he is the "god of this world" . . . "the whole world lies in the power of the wicked one". God being a just God has to allow this prophecy of Gen. 3 to play out until He decides it's time to "crush his head". Does Satan have to get God's authority, permission to do anything in this "world"? Why would he? - the whole world lies in his power.
So - does God do (allow) evil to happen to people just so he can turn it around for good - do evil so that good may come - or does he take the evil perpetrated by the adversary (either directly, through men or just the state of a fallen world) and turn it for good?
Hi PB! I was hoping you would return today!
I understand that your problem is with God giving permission for evil to touch His people and to sift them like wheat. I've got your mind in it, I think. You don't have a problem with the idea that evil may touch you or bring about your death. Your problem is in others thinking that God permits it rather than that God has no control over whether it does or doesn't touch them.
As to the Isaiah verse, I replied to someone that my translation says " darkness", not "evil." I don't think the translation that uses "I create evil" is good. I gave my own translation because I think evil would be better rendered as: cursing, calamity or darkness. And my translation (in my opinion) does not say that God creates evil but that He creates darkness - by turning His face from or by casting from, His presence. So I understand your question, but you have not understood that I do not equate the word darkness with the word evil, although I could say it would be an evil or woeful thing to have God turn His face from you and cast you into darkness! In other words, I do not think God creates, or is the author of, evil. And I have shown, by Calvins own words, that neither does he!
I like your post. I have a problem with your 4th paragraph where you say, does satan have to get Gods permission to do anything in this world? I had to think really hard about this! You give a verse that satan is the god of this world and so you come to the conclusion that he doesn't need to ask permission to touch one of Gods children. But then, I need for the other verses that are in tension to that to be worked into the equation, because we see satan asking permission in Job and we also have Jesus saying: Peter, satan has asked permission to sift you like wheat.
So when you seem to be stating that satan can do whatever evil or sifting or trying he desires to any of us who have been bought by Jesus, without any permission whatsoever, you are not fitting the verses together but are discarding two of them to favor another one of them. Maybe it has something to do with "the whole world lies under the power of the wicked one" but we are no longer of this world, although still in it...Maybe after we belong to God, then satan DOES have to ask permission to touch us. He certainly asked permission in an instance in the OT and another in the NT. And in the OT instance, He didn't give any sort of carte blanche permission, but gave limits.
It all has to fit together or we have missed something. I think you agree with that. Correct me if I'm wrong.
In your last paragraph you equate God allowing or giving permission for sifting with God DOING the evil. You say
does God do (allow) evil to happen to people...but when He allowed satan to sift Job, it ended with Job saying, oh my gosh, before I had only heard about God but now I have seen Him for myself! Is that an evil result? And by allowing men to torture and murder Jesus, you have the greatest gift and mercy. Is that an evil result?
Your last paragraph is chock full of good questions for me to struggle with and ask God about!