Death and Dying, part deux
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I should probably read what has been posted overnight before I post the thought I awoke with but...I don't want to forget to do it. First, I'm quite okay with finding that I agree with a lot of what a certain man has to say, but not all of it. I don't malign any man just because we think differently on some points. (Unless the man says tea is better than coffee, or cats are better than dogs, which makes it blatantly obvious that he has no idea what he's talking about.)
Since I can't find the complete writing, chapter or few pages that this quote is from, and since no one can point me to it and, in fact, only could quote the last seven words of the full sentence, I can only guess at his full intent, which to me appears to be like saying: The world is subject to God, runs and is governed by, the rules He put in place and subjected His creation to. And when satan and the men of the world do all the evil and attempted hindering they can think to do, God still works it all to His good pleasure and will and that pleasure and will is what wins out, because He works all things for the good of those who love and are called by Him - even all the evil intentions and schemes of the world.
Since I can't find the complete writing, chapter or few pages that this quote is from, and since no one can point me to it and, in fact, only could quote the last seven words of the full sentence, I can only guess at his full intent, which to me appears to be like saying: The world is subject to God, runs and is governed by, the rules He put in place and subjected His creation to. And when satan and the men of the world do all the evil and attempted hindering they can think to do, God still works it all to His good pleasure and will and that pleasure and will is what wins out, because He works all things for the good of those who love and are called by Him - even all the evil intentions and schemes of the world.
I finally got to it, UG. 
I read all of the surrounding posts a second time. I don't see in his posts that he has said, by stating that God is in control, that God causes men to do evil to one another.
I think I have come to understand the thoughts of "the other side" on this matter. It goes like this: If God is in control of my life and when and how I will die, and I am killed by a drunk driver (or serial killer or rapist or terrorist), then God would be EVIL for letting that happen without stopping it. Therefore, He has no control over what anyone is allowed to do to me and has no control over whether an evil man kills me or not, and has no control over how many years I will live, because that would make Him a monster I could not trust if He WAS in control and yet let evil touch me that way.
I read all of the surrounding posts a second time. I don't see in his posts that he has said, by stating that God is in control, that God causes men to do evil to one another.
I think I have come to understand the thoughts of "the other side" on this matter. It goes like this: If God is in control of my life and when and how I will die, and I am killed by a drunk driver (or serial killer or rapist or terrorist), then God would be EVIL for letting that happen without stopping it. Therefore, He has no control over what anyone is allowed to do to me and has no control over whether an evil man kills me or not, and has no control over how many years I will live, because that would make Him a monster I could not trust if He WAS in control and yet let evil touch me that way.
But for as many people who are killed by drunk drivers or serial killers or rapists or terrorists, there are also those who survive because their time has not yet come. Everyone will die because this life is only temporary. While if I had my preference, I would die in my sleep of old age, peacefully and without great physical pain, I am okay with whatever way God allows/permits for me to die - cancer, accident, murder, slipping on a banana peel. This life is temporary and the pains and throes of death are temporary. It doesn't really matter to me what way He lets me die. I want to die in a way that will help others if possible, with my trust (faith) intact and strong so I can maybe strengthen those still living here in their own trust/faith, when they see me die well and without any fear, because I know who I am going to and where I will be forever after.
Oh my goodness, I found it here!
Calvin's Commentaries, Vol. 36: Acts, Part I: Acts 4:24-31
It is a compilation of the mans writings in which you can do a word or phrase search of all he has written!!
Here is the particular section.
24.
Calvin's Commentaries, Vol. 36: Acts, Part I: Acts 4:24-31
It is a compilation of the mans writings in which you can do a word or phrase search of all he has written!!
Here is the particular section.
24.
Thou art God, which hast created. Although this title and commendation of God’s power be general, yet it ought to be referred unto the present matter, for they do in such sort acknowledge the power of God in the creation of the whole world, that they apply the same therewithal unto the present use. In like sort, the prophets do oftentimes commend the same, to the end they may redress that fear which troubleth us when we behold the power of our enemies; secondly, they add thereunto the promise, and they make these two foundations of their boldness whereby they are emboldened to pray. And surely our prayers are such as they ought to be, and acceptable to God only then, when as staying ourselves upon his promises and power, we pray with certain hope to obtain that for which we pray, for we cannot otherwise have any true confidence unless God do will us to come unto him, and promise that he is ready to help us; and, secondly, unless we acknowledge that he is able enough to help us; wherefore let the faithful exercise themselves in this double meditation so often as they address themselves unto prayer. Furthermore, we gather hereby after what sort we ought to consider the creation of the world; to wit, that we may know that all things are subject to God, and ruled by his will, and when that the world hath done what it can, there shall no other thing come to pass but that which God hath decreed; yea, that the wantonness of the wicked is monstrous, as if the clay should resist the potter; for this is the meaning of the faithful generally, that whatsoever dangers hang over their heads, yet can God prevent the same infinite ways, forasmuch as all things are in his hand, and that he is able to make all the parts of heaven and earth (which he hath created) to obey him.
U
No worries,
I understand what you are saying and do not disagree, even John Calvin switched several times between saying God is the author of evil and God allows evil.
I do think there is an important distinction to be made between these two beliefs.
I understand what you are saying and do not disagree, even John Calvin switched several times between saying God is the author of evil and God allows evil.
I do think there is an important distinction to be made between these two beliefs.
I enjoy talking with you UG and I hope no one will come in and get nasty and bring a halt to this matter we are working on with Gods help!
I finally got to it, UG.
I read all of the surrounding posts a second time. I don't see in his posts that he has said, by stating that God is in control, that God causes men to do evil to one another.
I think I have come to understand the thoughts of "the other side" on this matter. It goes like this: If God is in control of my life and when and how I will die, and I am killed by a drunk driver (or serial killer or rapist or terrorist), then God would be EVIL for letting that happen without stopping it. Therefore, He has no control over what anyone is allowed to do to me and has no control over whether an evil man kills me or not, and has no control over how many years I will live, because that would make Him a monster I could not trust if He WAS in control and yet let evil touch me that way.
I read all of the surrounding posts a second time. I don't see in his posts that he has said, by stating that God is in control, that God causes men to do evil to one another.
I think I have come to understand the thoughts of "the other side" on this matter. It goes like this: If God is in control of my life and when and how I will die, and I am killed by a drunk driver (or serial killer or rapist or terrorist), then God would be EVIL for letting that happen without stopping it. Therefore, He has no control over what anyone is allowed to do to me and has no control over whether an evil man kills me or not, and has no control over how many years I will live, because that would make Him a monster I could not trust if He WAS in control and yet let evil touch me that way.
I don't understand all things BUT I know that all scripture should flow and be in harmony throughout the Bible so maybe God created evil in the sense that his created being - Lucifer, who was created perfect in every way and just a step under God himself, CHOSE disobedience and rebellion - when he did - evil was created (You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.)
Then he tempted mankind that they could "be like gods" eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and they fell - sin and death entered a world where it never was before. Since the fall of mankind - the devil, our adversary, has been given authority - authority to bruise the heel of the seed of the woman and consequently, the church (body of Christ) as well - until the time of his "head being crushed" - he is the "god of this world" . . . "the whole world lies in the power of the wicked one". God being a just God has to allow this prophecy of Gen. 3 to play out until He decides it's time to "crush his head". Does Satan have to get God's authority, permission to do anything in this "world"? Why would he? - the whole world lies in his power.
So - does God do (allow) evil to happen to people just so he can turn it around for good - do evil so that good may come - or does he take the evil perpetrated by the adversary (either directly, through men or just the state of a fallen world) and turn it for good?
Here I have found him to be saying the opposite - that God is NOT the author of evil. It helps to read more of his commentary but this is from the horses mouth. I have bolded the parts because he is somewhat difficult to read and grasp.
By the hands of the wicked
By the hands of the wicked
Because Peter seemeth to grant that the wicked did obey God, hereupon followeth two absurdities;
106 the one, either that God is the author of evil, or that men do not sin, what wickedness soever they commit. I answer, concerning the second, that the wicked do nothing less than obey God, howsoever they do execute that which God hath determined with himself. For obedience springeth from a voluntary affection; and we know that the wicked have a far other purpose. Again, no man obeyeth God save he which knoweth his will. Therefore, obedience dependeth upon the knowledge of God’s will. Furthermore, God hath revealed unto us his will in the law; wherefore, those men
107 do obey God, who do that alone which is agreeable to the law of God; and, again, which submit themselves willingly to his government. We see no such thing in all the wicked, whom God doth drive hither and thither, they themselves being ignorant. No man, therefore, will say that they are excusable under this color, because they obey God; forasmuch as both the will of God must be sought in his law, and they, so much as in them lieth, do
108 to resist God. As touching the other point, I deny that God is the author of evil; because there is a certain noting of a wicked affection in this word. For the wicked deed is esteemed according to the end whereat a man aimeth. When men commit theft or murder, they offend
109 for this cause, because they are thieves or murderers; and in theft and murder there is a wicked purpose. God, who useth their wickedness, is to be placed in the higher degree. For he hath respect unto a far other thing, because he will chastise the one, and exercise the patience of the other; and so he doth never decline from his nature, that is, from perfect righteousness. So that, whereas Christ was delivered by the hands of wicked men, whereas he was crucified, it came to pass by the appointment and ordinance of God. But treason, which is of itself wicked, and murder, which hath in it so great wickedness, must not be thought to be the works of God.
Calvin's Commentaries, Vol. 36: Acts, Part I: Acts 2:22-24[SUB][/SUB]
Calvin's Commentaries, Vol. 36: Acts, Part I: Acts 2:22-24[SUB][/SUB]
Hi PB! I was hoping you would return today!
I understand that your problem is with God giving permission for evil to touch His people and to sift them like wheat. I've got your mind in it, I think. You don't have a problem with the idea that evil may touch you or bring about your death. Your problem is in others thinking that God permits it rather than that God has no control over whether it does or doesn't touch them.
As to the Isaiah verse, I replied to someone that my translation says " darkness", not "evil." I don't think the translation that uses "I create evil" is good. I gave my own translation because I think evil would be better rendered as: cursing, calamity or darkness. And my translation (in my opinion) does not say that God creates evil but that He creates darkness - by turning His face from or by casting from, His presence. So I understand your question, but you have not understood that I do not equate the word darkness with the word evil, although I could say it would be an evil or woeful thing to have God turn His face from you and cast you into darkness! In other words, I do not think God creates, or is the author of, evil. And I have shown, by Calvins own words, that neither does he!
I like your post. I have a problem with your 4th paragraph where you say, does satan have to get Gods permission to do anything in this world? I had to think really hard about this! You give a verse that satan is the god of this world and so you come to the conclusion that he doesn't need to ask permission to touch one of Gods children. But then, I need for the other verses that are in tension to that to be worked into the equation, because we see satan asking permission in Job and we also have Jesus saying: Peter, satan has asked permission to sift you like wheat.
So when you seem to be stating that satan can do whatever evil or sifting or trying he desires to any of us who have been bought by Jesus, without any permission whatsoever, you are not fitting the verses together but are discarding two of them to favor another one of them. Maybe it has something to do with "the whole world lies under the power of the wicked one" but we are no longer of this world, although still in it...Maybe after we belong to God, then satan DOES have to ask permission to touch us. He certainly asked permission in an instance in the OT and another in the NT. And in the OT instance, He didn't give any sort of carte blanche permission, but gave limits.
It all has to fit together or we have missed something. I think you agree with that. Correct me if I'm wrong.
In your last paragraph you equate God allowing or giving permission for sifting with God DOING the evil. You say does God do (allow) evil to happen to people...but when He allowed satan to sift Job, it ended with Job saying, oh my gosh, before I had only heard about God but now I have seen Him for myself! Is that an evil result? And by allowing men to torture and murder Jesus, you have the greatest gift and mercy. Is that an evil result?
Your last paragraph is chock full of good questions for me to struggle with and ask God about!
I understand that your problem is with God giving permission for evil to touch His people and to sift them like wheat. I've got your mind in it, I think. You don't have a problem with the idea that evil may touch you or bring about your death. Your problem is in others thinking that God permits it rather than that God has no control over whether it does or doesn't touch them.
As to the Isaiah verse, I replied to someone that my translation says " darkness", not "evil." I don't think the translation that uses "I create evil" is good. I gave my own translation because I think evil would be better rendered as: cursing, calamity or darkness. And my translation (in my opinion) does not say that God creates evil but that He creates darkness - by turning His face from or by casting from, His presence. So I understand your question, but you have not understood that I do not equate the word darkness with the word evil, although I could say it would be an evil or woeful thing to have God turn His face from you and cast you into darkness! In other words, I do not think God creates, or is the author of, evil. And I have shown, by Calvins own words, that neither does he!
I like your post. I have a problem with your 4th paragraph where you say, does satan have to get Gods permission to do anything in this world? I had to think really hard about this! You give a verse that satan is the god of this world and so you come to the conclusion that he doesn't need to ask permission to touch one of Gods children. But then, I need for the other verses that are in tension to that to be worked into the equation, because we see satan asking permission in Job and we also have Jesus saying: Peter, satan has asked permission to sift you like wheat.
So when you seem to be stating that satan can do whatever evil or sifting or trying he desires to any of us who have been bought by Jesus, without any permission whatsoever, you are not fitting the verses together but are discarding two of them to favor another one of them. Maybe it has something to do with "the whole world lies under the power of the wicked one" but we are no longer of this world, although still in it...Maybe after we belong to God, then satan DOES have to ask permission to touch us. He certainly asked permission in an instance in the OT and another in the NT. And in the OT instance, He didn't give any sort of carte blanche permission, but gave limits.
It all has to fit together or we have missed something. I think you agree with that. Correct me if I'm wrong.
In your last paragraph you equate God allowing or giving permission for sifting with God DOING the evil. You say does God do (allow) evil to happen to people...but when He allowed satan to sift Job, it ended with Job saying, oh my gosh, before I had only heard about God but now I have seen Him for myself! Is that an evil result? And by allowing men to torture and murder Jesus, you have the greatest gift and mercy. Is that an evil result?
Your last paragraph is chock full of good questions for me to struggle with and ask God about!
Like I said he states both and was contradictory and therein is the problem.
If you really want to understand Calvin I suggest you read Augustine first since that is who Calvin read.
If you really want to understand Calvin I suggest you read Augustine first since that is who Calvin read.
I have to draw the line at Augustine. I have tried a few times to read him and just could not bear it! I don't gain anything by his writing. I know many do but I am NOT one of them!
Something else just occurred to me UG. When I was skimming Calvins commentary on Acts and some of his other stuff last night and this morning as I was trying to find that exact quote, I saw mention of Augustine way more than once, so I saw that he had read Augustine. But in my skimming, I also got the impression that he was not always citing him in agreement...don't remember what I read exactly but it was something tht seemed to be disagreeing with something Augustine had said. And of course it makes sense that no man will agree with another on every single point or nuance.
This has grasped me so much it hasn't left my mind since I read it. He is saying that men esteem (place all their emphasis and thought on) the intent or aim of the wicked deed a man has commited or done, when God, who uses (or turns their wicked aim to good for the one they tried to snare) should be placed in a much higher degree (esteemed, thought most strenuously on).
He's saying that what appears to be the end result of evils aim, is not the end result at all but only a temporary result until you see what God was doing unseen by you...
He's saying that what appears to be the end result of evils aim, is not the end result at all but only a temporary result until you see what God was doing unseen by you...
D
Congratulations. You've upped your game. You are no longer merely a liar. You are a heretic!
And you are a heretic specifically because you refuse to believe Romans 8 and 9. (Chapters, not merely verses.) God DOES predestine. He also foreknew. HE also justified and sanctified. You don't believe that? Then you are a heretic!!!
[h=1]Romans 8 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT="]8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:[/FONT]
[FONT="]4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.[/FONT]
[FONT="]23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?[/FONT]
[FONT="]25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.[/FONT]
[FONT="]26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.[/FONT]
[FONT="]27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.[/FONT]
[FONT="]29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.[/FONT]
[FONT="]30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/FONT]
[FONT="]31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?[/FONT]
[FONT="]32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?[/FONT]
[FONT="]33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.[/FONT]
[FONT="]34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.[/FONT]
[FONT="]35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?[/FONT]
[FONT="]36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.[/FONT]
[FONT="]37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.[/FONT]
[FONT="]38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,[/FONT]
[FONT="]39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Romans 9 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT="]9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:[/FONT]
[FONT="]4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?[/FONT]
[FONT="]20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:[/FONT]
[FONT="]23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/FONT]
[FONT="]25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.[/FONT]
[FONT="]26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:[/FONT]
[FONT="]28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT="]29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.[/FONT]
[FONT="]30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.[/FONT]
[FONT="]31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT="]32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;[/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.[/FONT]
And you are a heretic specifically because you refuse to believe Romans 8 and 9. (Chapters, not merely verses.) God DOES predestine. He also foreknew. HE also justified and sanctified. You don't believe that? Then you are a heretic!!!
[h=1]Romans 8 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT="]8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:[/FONT]
[FONT="]4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.[/FONT]
[FONT="]23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?[/FONT]
[FONT="]25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.[/FONT]
[FONT="]26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.[/FONT]
[FONT="]27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.[/FONT]
[FONT="]29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.[/FONT]
[FONT="]30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/FONT]
[FONT="]31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?[/FONT]
[FONT="]32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?[/FONT]
[FONT="]33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.[/FONT]
[FONT="]34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.[/FONT]
[FONT="]35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?[/FONT]
[FONT="]36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.[/FONT]
[FONT="]37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.[/FONT]
[FONT="]38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,[/FONT]
[FONT="]39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Romans 9 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT="]9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:[/FONT]
[FONT="]4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
[/FONT][FONT="]12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?[/FONT]
[FONT="]20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:[/FONT]
[FONT="]23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/FONT]
[FONT="]25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.[/FONT]
[FONT="]26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:[/FONT]
[FONT="]28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT="]29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.[/FONT]
[FONT="]30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.[/FONT]
[FONT="]31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT="]32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;[/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.[/FONT]
I also have no problem with God predestining or forespeaking what will happen. He knows the end and what everyone will do, so He IS the only one who can ever forespeak. If He didn't know what the end of everyone and everything will be before it comes to be, He could not forespeak, predestine, or prophecy. It is only because He sees all of someones moments at once that He CAN forespeak and be correct...but maybe that's dense of me...it just seems so much simpler to me than some make it to be.
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