Death and Dying, part deux

FlSnookman7 · May 9, 2018

We seem to be trying to use human words and thinking to explain and understand something that is spiritual. It reminds me of a question I heard long ago that baffled me until I realized there was no correct or incorrect answer. Can God create a rock so heavy He can not lift it? Once I saw that the spiritual is so much higher and different than the world we live in (Isa 55:8-9) it allowed me to understand that I don't get to see the big picture yet and that I must have faith that God knows what He is doing.
When I am able to "let God drive the bus" my life is so much better. The really difficult thing for me to understand is why I don't do that all the time. Meh, still a work in progress.

Isaiah 55:8-9
8“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.9“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

UnderGrace · May 9, 2018

Interesting idea, but what are God's plans?

Katy-follower said:

preacher4truth · May 9, 2018

SovereignGrace said:

Yep..........

Stunnedbygrace · May 9, 2018

FlSnookman7 said:

There is a shocking amount of wisdom here. It will probably just be glossed over.

Not only are we, as you say, using feeble human words to try to grasp and explain Gods' ways and judgements, we are doing so with a feeble and limited human mind. And even knowing of that mind that is feeble and far below the task of understanding God, we still do not hesitate (or even get a hinky feeling that maybe we should refrain) from, hurling accusations at others trying with their own feeble minds just as we are. As you say, it is so far above us and our capacity, that it would be the height of prudence to NOT act as we do with each other. But your post will be glossed over and trampled as worthless whn it is the most wisdom filled post this thread has yet had. But take heart fis - you have helped to remind me and I'm thankful.

preacher4truth · May 9, 2018

We don't "let" God do anything.

Stunnedbygrace · May 9, 2018

Please know that you deserve reps fis, but I can't give them right now.

Stunnedbygrace · May 9, 2018

Katy-follower said:

Oh gosh, you have sent me into peals of happy laughter! This should be enough to cause the most restful...cessation of striving, but for the arrogance in us that causes us to say it isn't sufficient because there are still things we don't know and must insist on having answered!

garee · May 9, 2018

Calvin is deadand cannot defend himself. Why mention his name?
Two kinds evil. God did not cause Adam and Eve to sinbut when they did go against his truth he promised an evil .You shall surelydie .He brought a evil upon them. In that way he creates evil
It seem to be about walking by faith and not by sight. Menlooking for something they can do to confirm they have a relationship wit God. Healinglike tongues or any outward sign.

There simply is no such thing as a "sign gift"as evidence of something .Wewalk by faith (the unseen) no one has received the promise of their new incorruptible bodies..all die not receiving that promise of faith.
Signs are for those who believe not prophecy, the onesource of faith, as it is written.

Experience is not the validator of the unseen spiritual world the bible alone is.

Depleted · May 9, 2018

Magenta said:

Saying God ordained and predestined isn't Calvinism. It's Book of Romansism. New Testementism. Bibleism! Sovereignty! God!

Saying that's not true, is calling God a liar, or making up your own God. The first choice is frightening. The second is stupid!

I really have no problems with Arminians. I don't know why someone, who is on this site to tell us God lied or is not the God of the Bible, is allowed to stay on this site!

Depleted · May 9, 2018

Stunnedbygrace said:

Also helps to understand, "Calvinists" read Calvin about as often as anti-Calvinists read Calvin -- not very, in the grand scheme of things. We don't follow Calvin! We follow Christ! (Also why we prefer Reformed. At least we don't have to keep getting asked about what Calvin said, if we could just keep the name "Reformed." lol)

But, it is a game the Antis play. "Calvin said. Calvin said. Calvin said." And, have you ever noticed how often their little gems of whatever Calvin did say are pot-marked with ellipses or there is a qualifier (And, but, therefore, etc.) in the beginning of the sentence that points directly to that sentence NEEDS to be with the rest of what he said? That is the part of the game no one is supposed to notice. "Puppet strings," except it's not God pulling the strings, it's them.

Imagine assuming every Republican believes the party platform. It's the same idea that Antis have for Calvinists, that somehow we have to believe -- and know -- everything Calvin ever wrote. Trump is pro-homosexual marriage and was pro-abortion. With the Anti's logic, he's obviously NOT a Republican! Or all Republicans must agree with him. I'm a Republican and don't even know everything Trump believes. I don't even know the full Republican platform. lol

And the stupid part is these lies, this lunacy, this repeat-repeat-repeat-the-lie works on this site. Why? Because so many believe other lies. "If you think it's true, it is truth to you." Or "Christians are supposed to be nice or open-minded."

We lost truth. The tare has overtaken this site. The best you will get for all your struggle, Stunned, is they will think you're okay, even though you're wrong, because at least you were nice and open-minded. (Notice. They are neither.) BUT the next time they see you, the same lies they give out of habit will roll around to you yet again. After all, how often have you told them that you are not against them already?

(Make no mistake. I AM against them. lol)

Depleted · May 9, 2018

Magenta said:

Not her problem most the time. While I did get what you were saying that one time, but Stunned did not, I noticed the only thing you should have done is explain the same thing in different words, so she would have gotten it. Instead you attacked her as a self-defense mode for not understanding.

And on the other side, you aren't talking. You're sermonizing the exact same incorrect, BS sermon you always plop out there when it comes to "Calvinist bad", instead of actually talking to someone willing to listen and trying to understand -- Stunned.

Communications is a two-way street, but you think it's a one-way -- your way -- and everyone should stand on the side of the street to marvel on what-is-you. AND, you get belligerent, if anyone doesn't do just that. That's not communication. That's self-important-for-no-particular-reason-except-your-fans-need-something-to-adore-about-you-today!

I gave up thinking I can convince you you're naked. Now I'm just shouting, "The Emperor has no clothes. Oh, and the Emperor isn't even an emperor!" Not for your benefit, but for the benefit of anyone thinking you are an emperor, because they need to know God is. Not you!

But Stunned is still trying to talk to you, and you're so full of yourself, you can't even figure out how to communicate with her.

Depleted · May 9, 2018

Magenta said:

For instance, here. You say you cannot grasp something, and when I give an answer, you say you did not say that, and that I have not addressed what you said, when my response was in direct relation to what you said, I already know YOU did not say it, I am telling you what the mindset you cannot grasp is. "Some cannot accept that God is sovereign and omnipotent unless He is controlling everything like a puppet master." The Calvinist will rail against being called puppets yet claim God is the cause for everything that happens, ergo God makes people do evil things, because He has predetermined and predestined it. That is not the same as saying He causes all things to work for the good, and it says nothing against Him knowing in advance what people will or will not do.

Has anyone said God does not know the future? Knowing what people will do and making people do the things they do are two completely separate issues. The funny thing is that a Calvinist will say that God causes everything to happen but then scoff at the idea that God made some particular thing to happen. Odd too that in their view everything is ordained by God, yet they will complain against people pointing out the flaws in their theology... because according to their theology, God is the cause of anyone disputing their theology. It is inherently self-contradictory for them to complain, but I guess in their view God makes them behave in ways that actually shows the flaws in their thinking.

Your logic in a nutshell -- The Legislators outlawed slavery, therefore the Legislators authorized slavery.

Personally? Neither Calvinistic logic nor Arminian logic, but there you go!

Depleted · May 9, 2018

And poof! Another sermon/high school paper, instead of actually talking to someone.

I get why Magenta does this. It makes her feel important, knowledgeable, and makes here feel like she has expertise on something. (Yellow journalism tactics, but she is pleased with herself.)

What I don't get is why do people even listen to this crap? If I were an English teacher, this paper would fail. It has a false premise, the quotes are taken out of context, the quotes don't even prove her points, she doesn't even any points, she hijacked someone else's book so the quotes aren't even attributed correctly, the people she's quoting she doesn't even know, AND yet she thinks this proved she's right, when it wasn't even her proving or disproving anything.

Still people think she's marvy for a teacher? Are YOU nuts?

Magenta said:

I gave a list a while back of Calvinists saying that very thing.

The Calvinist claim is that God ordains /predetermines/predestines what man does; good or evil, makes no difference, because if it is ordained and decreed, it must come to pass. That means God will make it happen, not that God simply allows it to happen, or knows it will happen, or cause good to come of it for those who love Him. I make a distinction between the permissive will of God, and the sovereign and moral will of God, which does not in any way negate His goodness, nor His omnipotence, nor His omniscience.

Here are some Calvinist teachers writing on the subject:

The doctrine of Calvinism necessitates that nothing happen apart from God’s will. John Calvin declares, “My doctrine is that the will of God is the first and supreme cause of all things.” John Calvin is convinced that, “Nothing happens except what is knowingly and willingly decreed by [God].” If this is true, then God must knowingly and willingly decree man’s sin. It is in this sense that, as John Calvin said, God cannot be said to merely permit sin but rather to will and to author it.

“God worketh all things in all men even wickedness in the wicked
for this is one branch of his own omnipotence.” Martin Luther

“It is certain then, that the existence of sin was the ordination of the
divine will … Sin could not have existence, without, or contrary to the
divine will: its being, must be the consequent of the divine purpose …
Sin is the wise and holy ordination of God.” William Tucker

“[A]s nothing exists contrary to the will of Him who says I will
do all my pleasure. It certainly was his determination to permit
it, and his will, that sin should have being." William Tucker

“When God makes angels or men sin, he does not sin himself,
because he does not break any law.” Ulricus Zuinglius

“God is the author of that action, which is sinful,
by his irresistible will.” William Twisse

“God necessitates man unto sin …” John Piscator

“God does holily drive and thrust men on unto wickedness.” John Piscator

“God justly wills that sins be committed by us, and indeed
absolutely wills that they be committed; nay, procures in
time these sins themselves.” John Piscator

“God procures adultery, cursing, lyings.” John Piscator

“God … is the cause of those actions which are sins …” Peter Martyr

“The basic principle of Calvinism is the soveriegnty of God.[He] creates
the very thoughts and intents of the soul.” Loraine Boettner

“God controls everything that exists and everything that happens. There is not one thing that exists or that happens that he has not decreed and caused—not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed and caused the existence of evil. He has not merely permitted it, because nothing can originate or happen apart from his will and power. Since no creature can make free or independent decisions, evil could never have started unless God decreed and caused it, and it cannot continue for one moment longer without God’s will for it to continue or without God’s power actively causing it to continue.” Vincent Cheung

“Sin is one of the ‘whatsoevers’ that have ‘come to pass,’
all of which are ‘ordained.’” William Shedd

“It is even Biblical to say that God has foreordained sin. If sin
was outside the plan of God, then not a single important
affair of life would be ruled by God.” Edwin Palmer

“If the Lord directs the steps of a man, is it not proof that he is
being controlled or governed by God? … Can this mean anything
less than, that no matter what man may desire and plan, it is the
will of his Maker which is executed?” Arthur W. Pink

“We also note that we should consider the creation of the world
so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled
by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing
happens other than what God decrees.” John Calvin

“When [Augustine] uses the term permission, the meaning which he attaches to it will best appear from a single passage (De Trinity. lib. 3 cap. 4), where he proves that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of all things, because nothing happens without his order or permission.” John Calvin

“But when they call to mind that the devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are, in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how much soever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as [God] permits, nay, unless in so far as he commands; that they are not only bound by his fetters, but are even forced to do him service,—when the godly think of all these things they have ample sources of consolation.” John Calvin

“God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning;
I am suggesting that God created sin.” Robert C. Sproul Jr.

“God wills all things that come to pass.” Robert C. Sproul Jr.

“Since, therefore, God moves and does all in all, He necessarily moves
and does all in Satan and the wicked man.” Martin Luther

“All things including even the wicked actions of wicked
men and devils—are brought to pass in accordance with
God’s eternal purpose.” John Machen

“Both the elect and the reprobates were foreordained to sin, as sin,
that the glory of God might be declared thereby.” Jerome Zanchius

“t was God’s will that sin should come into the world.
He wished to enhance his glory by means of its
punishment and removal.” Cornelius Van Til

“Sin, or moral evil, is no accidental thing, but a wise and
holy ordination of God for the manifestation of his own
glory, in the person of his dear Son, the adorable
Redeemer from it.” William Tucker

“Not an impure thought, word, or act, more or less, can arise among the creatures, than God has actually determined the being and permission of. Omnipotence cannot pervade, or absolute wisdom guide his arm; if any thing comes to pass and he commands it not.” William Tucker

“Foreordination means God’s sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. He decides and causes all things to happen that do happen. He is not sitting on the sidelines wondering and perhaps fearing what is going to happen next. No, He has foreordained everything ‘after the counsel of his will’ (Eph. 1:11): the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist – even sin.” Edwin Palmer

Having looked at these many quotations, is it really necessary to continue to question whether Calvinism necessitates that God is the author of sin? Nothing could be clearer.

https://authorofsin.pressbooks.com/chapter/does-god-ordain-sin/

Stunnedbygrace · May 9, 2018

Yes, lynn, I wouldn't imagine many would actually read calvin because he is difficult to understand. His writing isn't modernized as some of the older spiritual works are. But I have so far found some real gems in his writing so I am willing to struggle through it and dig and labor to understand the arcane words he often uses.

Yes, I have noted the continual "calvin said, calvin said" thing going on with some and have puzzled over why they can't just have a conversation with someone. As you said, to keep bringing up calvin with people who've never even read calvin is...strange. As you know, it was only a few short months ago that I even looked into what TULIP means because I figured after more than 10 years of hearing it, maybe I finally had time to look it up. LOL!

Yes, I also do NOT like when any man, dead or alive, is being attacked based on what another website says about him. And when just a few words of a sentence are used (and ellipses, etc., like you say) instead of the mans complete sentence or hopefully even a paragraph or two for context, I refuse to perpetuate the hearsay and go straight to the horses mouth. I've done it with many men and women being spoken ill of because I feel it is the only respectful thing to do is to let a man speak for himself.

I don't agree that these people are tares just because they are not yet perfect in knowledge or have some inconsistencies or more to learn. I believe they are my brothers and sisters. I'm not against them. Even if I disagree on some things, I'm for them. I don't think you should make this a salvation issue and call them tares. I think you have gone way too far there.

Depleted · May 9, 2018

JGIG said:

JGIG, I reported your plagiarism. You do not have permission to take my writing, cut it in half, and then reformat it to turn it into your writing.

In all fairness, (more fairness than you gave), this is the report I sent:

What you did was both illegal and immoral, and yet you're the one claiming what "great harm" is for the sake of... whom?

I am making a legal document over this one.

Stunnedbygrace · May 9, 2018

Going out to the side yard to put another coat on these wicker pieces.
Did I tell you guys that at 6 p.m., I'm three weeks without a cigarette? I used green smoke and blu rechargeable e- cigs with disposable cartridges to help me and I'm actually forgetting to pick them up now for long stretches of time. I'm still in shock that after so many years of asking God to help me quit (not because I've thought it sin but because of the cost and not wanting to be on oxygen in my 60's!) He did something to not make it not impossible for me to do as in the past.

I also may have found a job! (still have my antique shops and painted furniture, but I need a little more money).

Please bear with and love one another. Ask God for help in it.

trofimus · May 9, 2018

Depleted said:

We are on a discussion site and to quote just a part one is responding to is a common practice. Its both legal and moral.

Also, I think you are too sensitive last days. I skimmed over your last posts and all are about personal problems instead of the topic...

Sorry, but I think it must be said.

oldethennew · May 9, 2018

I think this thread should be closed, it has gone way to far into personality and character -

it seems very vain with many fingers touching on 'self' instead of God's Love...

ROMANS 11:34.
For who has known The Mind of The Lord? or who has been His counselor?

please move-on, this has taken a bad turn and become un-profitable...

Stunnedbygrace · May 9, 2018

Depleted said:

I didn't catch that because I clicked on the actual post in the thread to read it and the surrounding posts, but you are right - that is not the way to do things. It does in fact make it look like that was your post when it was really just snapped together parts and deleted parts. It's a dishonest way to do things. She greatly altered your post but kept it all in one box. Not good, JGIG.

Stunnedbygrace · May 9, 2018

trofimus said:

I disagree. The post was put all in one quote box and then large portions snipped out here and there. It is not good.
I do however agree that it has been personal from a long while back on the parts of many posters in here. It is a spat being carried over from other threads I think.

Death and Dying, part deux

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