Is Roman Catholicism Evil?

[Angela53510]

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So tell me, Deade, what happens to our souls, if we have followed God's word, once our bodies die?

Since Mary was in a state of grace throughout her life because of her unique stature as the mother of Jesus, do you suppose her soul might have found its way to a place with God? And that is why Catholics pray, not to an inanimate object such as a cross or a statue or a dead body, but to the soul of the person who has been deemed worthy of a place in His presence. And they ask that person to intercede on their behalf before God.

Duh!! Right backatcha.

So, is Mary God? Or is she a person?

If she is a god, or God, then she is not the God of the Bible. Therefore, that is worshipping other gods, or idolatry.

If she is just a person, then she does not have the qualities of God. Those include omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. If she does not have these qualities, how can she hear all the rosaries being sent her way, every day by millions of Catholics?

Mary, even if she was magically “assumed” into heaven, she does not have the ability to hear, let alone take all those millions of daily requests to God.

On the other hand, Jesus is God. I think Catholics agree with that! So Jesus is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and he does have the capacity to hear the prayers of millions of Protestants, (and Catholics, if they dare to pray to Jesus!). And not just hear our prayers, but answer them, with his power.

Mary does not have the ability to hear the millions of daily prayers, she cannot answer prayer, and truly, if the Mary of the Bible could see the false lies created about her, she would be horrified.

Mary is just a person, no ability to hear anyone's prayers, let alone act on them.

You can’t have it both ways. Mary is either a person, unable to hear and answer prayers which should be properly addressed to God; or she is God, able to hear and answer prayers, and you are worshipping a false god.

This is the essence of why Mariology is a lie from the devil, enslaving millions of people in a system where prayers are not properly sent to God, but a mere person, with no ability to hear or answer prayers.

Or, some ridiculous system where people cannot pray to God for their requests and needs, and end up praying to someone with no power, no ability to answer prayer, and indeed who keeps them away from the real God.

 

[oldethennew]

Fear God and ..................

 

[Brian_Graham]

Angela53510:

"So, is Mary God? Or is she a person?" Mary is not a god. Nor is she "just" a person.

"Mary, even if she was magically “assumed” into heaven, she does not have the ability to hear, let alone take all those millions of daily requests to God."

People who die in a state of grace in God's eyes are assumed to be brought into His presence for eternity. Please provide your evidence (that means biblical or theological documentation -- with citations) to support your assertion: "she does not have the ability to hear, let alone take all those millions of daily requests to God." A theological reference would necessarily be from an individual accepted by the academic theological or prominent religious community as possessing the necessary accreditation to examine thoroughly such arguments. This does not include someone who posts on a blog or Youtube unless they, too, possess academic accreditation. My arguments, with biblical and theological references support the opposite view. Your turn to demonstrate that your assertions are not merely a projection of your personal biases on a matter of theology.
Provide your evidence to support that statement.

You also wrote: "This is the essence of why Mariology is a lie from the devil, enslaving millions of people in a system where prayers are not properly sent to God, but a mere person, with no ability to hear or answer prayers."

Angela, You and I are "mere" persons. But Mary, most certainly, is not. [FONT=&quot]The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace." Luke 1:28-30 (KJV): "(28) And the angel came in unto her [Mary], and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured [full of grace], the Lord is with thee: blessed [blest] art thou among women. … (30) And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God." How could Mary be "full of grace" prior to Christ's death on the cross? To become the mother of the Saviour, Mary was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role. According to the Catholic Catechism, The "splendour of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son." The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before Him in love." All people were born in sin. But only one person -- in His infinite wisdom, His infinite love, and His infinite power -- could make the vessel chosen to give birth to His only Son free from sin from conception, and therefore worthy to bear that Son.

I dare say that neither you nor I, as "mere" persons, has ever had the Archangel Gabriel, God's messenger, tell us that we are "full of grace."

You also wrote: "Or, some ridiculous system where people cannot pray to God for their requests and needs, and end up praying to someone with no power, no ability to answer prayer, and indeed who keeps them away from the real God."

The Catholic Church specifically teaches that God alone is worthy of worship. However, there are those among us who, because of their heroic virtue, are deserving of acclaim and honour. There are three degrees of religious respect in Roman Catholic theology. They go by specific names: Latria, Dulia, and Hyperdulia. [Dr. E.A. Livingstone (ed), Oxford Concise Dictionary of the Christian Church, (2013, Oxford University Press, Oxford, UK), pp. 174, 274, & 328]. Thomas Aquinas [Summa Theologiae, Part II-II (Secunda Secundae Partis), 103:3 -- at the Guttenberg Library] bases the distinction on the difference between God's supreme dominion and that which one man may exercise over another.
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Latria is worship. It is the worship that is due only to God. Dulia is not worship. It is honour or veneration. Dulia is what is given to the saints -- they are given the honour that is due to them. As part of this, people ask them for things, primarily for their intervention on our behalf before God. It can be compared to a mere person asking a lawyer to speak on his or her behalf before the court and the judge.

Hyperdulia (to put it simply, lots and lots of dulia) is the honour given to Mary because she is unique among all God’s creation. She is the only created being who was honoured by God so greatly that his Son took his flesh from her. She has a totally unique place of honour in Heaven and therefore also among all of God’s people on earth. The honour given her, therefore, and the dulia she is given is higher than any other being. But it is not latria. The Catholic Church is very clear about that: Catholics do not worship Mary. Repeat after me: "Catholics do not worship Mary." They pray to her to ask her to intercede before God on their behalf. And they do so because of her status, not as a "mere person," but as the mother of Jesus, and because God granted her the status of being full of grace.

Pope John Paul II used the title "Mediatrix" several times, and in his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, he wrote: "The maternal role of Mary towards people in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power: it is mediation in Christ. ... Mary's mediation is intimately linked with her motherhood. ... Through this fullness of grace and supernatural life she was especially predisposed to cooperation with Christ, the one Mediator of human salvation. And such cooperation is precisely this mediation subordinated to the mediation of Christ." This is not blasphemy since the status of Mary as intervenor is clearly subordinate to both Jesus and the Father -- not a joint- or co- anything. [Papal Encyclical of 25 March 1987].

There is nothing in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that says people cannot pray directly to God. The best example of that is the Lord's Prayer (Matthew 6:9-13), said by Protestants and Catholics alike. Surely you must of heard of it. This should be understood clearly: the hyperdulia and dulia given by Catholics to Mary and the saints is ultimately honour given to God -- not for who they are, but for who God made them to be. This directing prayers of intercession to Mary and the saints, of course, does not preclude anyone from praying directly to God. [Catholic Encyclopedia]

"This is the essence of why Mariology is a lie from the devil." There is no "Mariology" in the Catholic Church for the reasons I've outlined above. If you are unable to understand the reasoning and accept the evidence presented, that is not my fault. I acknowledge the Catholic Church has committed some horrendous acts in its history, and that is strongly supported by historical evidence. But personal biases and distorting facts to suit the laughable assertion of Mariology is beyond the pale.

 

[garee]

Garee, You dismiss the citations from the Catholic Catechism, yet you repeat your same assertions that what the Catholic Church is teaching is counter to the Bible. I agree with you: "The document by which we can believe God not seen is the Bible, as His interpretation to us a witness who was there working in the affairs of men." But you failed answer my question. I'll repeat it once again: Specifically and precisely, how do any of the passages I provided for you fail to follow Scripture? You made the specific claim that the Catholic Church denies that "the grace of Christ paid the full wage of our sin." Citing its own teachings, I proved you were incorrect. Unless you can address those specific teachings directly from the Catechism, and not from your own interpretations, perceptions and assertions, your replies will continue to be circular reasoning, which is a logical fallacy.

Circular reasoning seals the deal . God is no longer bringing any new revelations .That possibility is sealed up until the end of time . The idea of private revelations simply violates the warning not to add or subtract now that we have the whole word of God . Private revelations is simply those who go above that which is written .God promised he will send a strong delusion to the so they will believe the lie . Private revelations is no different than wish upon a star and it will be true because Holy Mother asked it.

Pope Urban VIII on Private Revelation
His Holiness, Pope Urban VIII stated: "In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true," because" you believed it to be true."(Pope Urban VIII, 1623-44)
It is simply another way Catholicism avoids the authority of God word ....the one source of Christian faith.

The Catholic church speaks of a unknown amount of grace denying the fullness eternal life. As a Catholic they must believe their own suffering adds to his unknown amount and even after they leave this realm under the Sun they are still suffering for their own sin for a unknown amount of time or severity .Can't build a faith on unknowns

 

[PennEd]

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So tell me, Deade, what happens to our souls, if we have followed God's word, once our bodies die?

Since Mary was in a state of grace throughout her life because of her unique stature as the mother of Jesus, do you suppose her soul might have found its way to a place with God? And that is why Catholics pray, not to an inanimate object such as a cross or a statue or a dead body, but to the soul of the person who has been deemed worthy of a place in His presence. And they ask that person to intercede on their behalf before God.

Duh!! Right backatcha.

So with that reasoning, you should be making a rosary dedicated to the thief on the cross, since Jesus says he also is in His Presence.

 

[garee]

This brings to mind a key theological question for you:Was Mary the earthly mother of Jesus? According to the Gospels -- Luke 1:28-30,Luke 2:1-20, Matthew 1:18-25 -- the answer would be a resounding"Yes." Another theological question: Is Jesus part of the triune God?Again, a Christian must answer again with another "Yes." Therefore,as the mother of Jesus, Mary is necessarily the earthly mother of God. Thedifference is not so big after all.

Big difference ,eternal and temporal .

God has no motheror father, beginning of Spirit life or end of Spirit life. He is not a createdbeing. Not a man as us

The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciationsalutes her as "full of grace." Luke 1:28-30 (KJV): "(28) Andthe angel came in unto her [Mary], and said, Hail, thou that art highlyfavoured [full of grace], the Lord is with thee: blessed [blest] art thou amongwomen. … (30) And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast foundfavour with God." How could Mary be "full of grace" prior toChrist's death on the cross? To become the mother of the Saviour, Mary wasenriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role. According to theCatholic Catechism, The "splendour of an entirely unique holiness" bywhich Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception"comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, byreason of the merits of her Son." The Father blessed Mary more than anyother created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in theheavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation ofthe world, to be holy and blameless before Him in love." All people wereborn in sin. But only one person -- in His infinite wisdom, His infinite love,and His infinite power -- could make the vessel chosen to give birth to Hisonly Son free from sin from conception, and therefore worthy to bear that Son.Guess who that might be. Do you dare to know the mind of God? Do you dare tosay that God's actions are contrary to Scripture?

All born again Christian are full of the grace of God, he does not offer partial grace. His work paid the full wage of sin which is eternal not temporal.

Mary is not a source of grace. Neither is she the mother of mercy as if mercy came from her corrupted flesh

Mary was born into a corrupted body of sin that aged ina decay process leading to the destruction of the flesh, just as was the Son ofman ,Jesus who said clearly His flesh profits for nothing its the unseen Spiritof God that does the work. God is not a man as us.

Idolatry is worshipping a statue and giving it the samepower and authority as God. In your post on images and statues, you highlightedthe reason why some Protestants think Catholics worship Mary and the saints.People still make the ridiculous claim that because Catholics have statues intheir churches, they are violating God’s commandment: "You shall not makefor yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heavenabove, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under theearth: you shall not bow down to them or serve them" (Exodus 20:4–5). Theymaintain that bowing down in worship (idolatry) and bowing down in respect arethe same. They think worship, veneration, and prayer are the same thing.

Idolatry is using an image in respect to a person that once lived on earth as a way of communing with what they believe is the person.God who is not a man as us has no outward image.

When we seek the unseen by worldby faith we pray the one described manner called "this manner" Our Father who isin heaven. Not many manners but one. Notour relatives or the famous as people who lived here at one time.

The latter is necromancy which seeking after workers with familiar spirits, rather than God that we like Josiah below might performthe words of the law found in the book of the law the Bible .(sola scriptura)the arch enemy of the Catholic church.

2Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and thewizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that werespied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he mightperform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah thepriest found in the house of the Lord.......... (sola scriptura)​

What God calls a abomination the Catholic church must call patron saints

The Catholic today has over 3,500 and rapidly rising available disembodied workers with familiar spirit gods and idol images and medallions to go along that they must callPatron saints, in that way they come under the illusion of receiving new private revelations seeing the word of God to them is not the only source of faith .Just the only one they make to no effect with the traditions of their fathers who Lord it over the faith of others.

Another example is found in Isiah warning the believerto not use necromancy in respect to the word seek ,a Hebrew word Darash that when defined means necromancy ..The word is used in two ways. One rightfully to seek after our God and the otherafter familiar spirts as gods (many). The Catholic have over 3,500 available

And when they shall say unto you, Seek (necromancy, darash ) untothem that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter:should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony:(sola scriptura) if they speaknot according to this word, it is because there is no light in them Isaiah 8:20

 

[Brian_Graham]

garee:

Adding a name to a dubious quote does not equal a citation. Only a link to the original writing by Urban is acceptable. And if you search for the Papal Bull in the Vatican Archives, you will discover that the quote you presented does not exist. The fabricated quote you provided is often misattributed to Pope Urban VIII in his Papal Bull of 13 March 1625, titled "Sanctissimus Dominus Noster." In it, Urban instructed Catholics not to venerate the deceased or represent them in the manner of saints [ie. with halos, rays, etc.] without Church sanction. It required a bishop’s approval for the publication of private revelations. The promoters of unapproved apparitions and private revelations, in particular the Medjugorje, appeal to two false conclusions from past Pope's statements, and in both cases they take statements out of context. You made a statement following the Urban quote: "It is simply another way Catholicism avoids the authority of God['s] word ....the one source of Christian faith." Since the quote is fabricated, your conclusion must also be false.

You also wrote: "The Catholic church speaks of a [sic] unknown amount of grace denying the fullness eternal life. As a Catholic they must believe their own suffering adds to his unknown amount and even after they leave this realm under the Sun they are still suffering for their own sin for a unknown amount of time or severity." But you provided no verifiable source for this statement. Then you concluded: Can't build a faith on unknowns." I'm sorry, a conclusion based on an unsubstantiated statement lacks any credibility whatsoever.

Since you are making this statement in the present tense, any evidence you attempt to provide must also be in the present. I would, however, allow considerable wiggle room by accepting anything after 1990, since the most recent version of the Catholic Catechism, the official teachings of the church, was published in 1992. This would mean that a real quote from 1623-44 would not be relevant to the discussion. But a fabricated quote you copied and pasted, such as the Urban VIII one in your post, is dismissed out of hand. I say this to emphasize the importance of knowing how to conduct thorough and effective research, and how to fact check something that appears on a web site. The rule of thumb: Question everything. If it can be verified through reputable academic and/or theological sources, cite them.

 

[Brian_Graham]

garee:

1. Your definition of idolatry is not the biblical definition. It is a definition that has been corrupted by a Christian denomination to suit their own purposes. "Idolatry" literally means the worship of an "idol," in the form of a physical image, such as a statue or icon. In Abrahamic religions, namely Christianity, Islam and Judaism, idolatry connotes the worship of something or someone other than God as if it were God or a god.

2. "All born again Christian are full of the grace of God." But they lose that state of grace if they sin, and they do not regain until they have repented. Mary was granted a state of grace by God, that which was granted to no other human being, before Jesus was even conceived and without being "born again." It takes a pretty special person in God's eyes to merit that status. Christians are to be in a state of grace because of the crucifixion of Mary's son, Jesus.

3. "God has no mother or father, beginning of Spirit life or end of Spirit life. He is not a created being. Not a man as us." I presume you are writing about God, the Father. But you ignored completely the theological questions I posited. "Was Mary the earthly mother of Jesus? According to the Gospels -- Luke 1:28-30,Luke 2:1-20, Matthew 1:18-25 -- the answer would be a resounding "Yes." Another theological question: Is Jesus part of the triune God? Again, a Christian must answer again with another "Yes." Therefore, as the mother of Jesus, Mary is necessarily the earthly mother of God." This is simply an affirmation that Jesus is God, equal to God, the Father, and God, the Holy Spirit, in the triune God.

 

[Brian_Graham]

So with that reasoning, you should be making a rosary dedicated to the thief on the cross, since Jesus says he also is in His Presence.

I should not [must not] be making a rosary dedicated to anything or anyone -- for any reason -- since I am not Catholic.

 

[John146]

Angela53510:

"So, is Mary God? Or is she a person?" Mary is not a god. Nor is she "just" a person.

"Mary, even if she was magically “assumed” into heaven, she does not have the ability to hear, let alone take all those millions of daily requests to God."

People who die in a state of grace in God's eyes are assumed to be brought into His presence for eternity. Please provide your evidence (that means biblical or theological documentation -- with citations) to support your assertion: "she does not have the ability to hear, let alone take all those millions of daily requests to God." A theological reference would necessarily be from an individual accepted by the academic theological or prominent religious community as possessing the necessary accreditation to examine thoroughly such arguments. This does not include someone who posts on a blog or Youtube unless they, too, possess academic accreditation. My arguments, with biblical and theological references support the opposite view. Your turn to demonstrate that your assertions are not merely a projection of your personal biases on a matter of theology.
Provide your evidence to support that statement.

You also wrote: "This is the essence of why Mariology is a lie from the devil, enslaving millions of people in a system where prayers are not properly sent to God, but a mere person, with no ability to hear or answer prayers."

Angela, You and I are "mere" persons. But Mary, most certainly, is not. The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace." Luke 1:28-30 (KJV): "(28) And the angel came in unto her [Mary], and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured [full of grace], the Lord is with thee: blessed [blest] art thou among women. … (30) And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God." How could Mary be "full of grace" prior to Christ's death on the cross? To become the mother of the Saviour, Mary was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role. According to the Catholic Catechism, The "splendour of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son." The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before Him in love." All people were born in sin. But only one person -- in His infinite wisdom, His infinite love, and His infinite power -- could make the vessel chosen to give birth to His only Son free from sin from conception, and therefore worthy to bear that Son.

I dare say that neither you nor I, as "mere" persons, has ever had the Archangel Gabriel, God's messenger, tell us that we are "full of grace."

You also wrote: "Or, some ridiculous system where people cannot pray to God for their requests and needs, and end up praying to someone with no power, no ability to answer prayer, and indeed who keeps them away from the real God."

The Catholic Church specifically teaches that God alone is worthy of worship. However, there are those among us who, because of their heroic virtue, are deserving of acclaim and honour. There are three degrees of religious respect in Roman Catholic theology. They go by specific names: Latria, Dulia, and Hyperdulia. [Dr. E.A. Livingstone (ed), Oxford Concise Dictionary of the Christian Church, (2013, Oxford University Press, Oxford, UK), pp. 174, 274, & 328]. Thomas Aquinas [Summa Theologiae, Part II-II (Secunda Secundae Partis), 103:3 -- at the Guttenberg Library] bases the distinction on the difference between God's supreme dominion and that which one man may exercise over another.

Latria is worship. It is the worship that is due only to God. Dulia is not worship. It is honour or veneration. Dulia is what is given to the saints -- they are given the honour that is due to them. As part of this, people ask them for things, primarily for their intervention on our behalf before God. It can be compared to a mere person asking a lawyer to speak on his or her behalf before the court and the judge.

Hyperdulia (to put it simply, lots and lots of dulia) is the honour given to Mary because she is unique among all God’s creation. She is the only created being who was honoured by God so greatly that his Son took his flesh from her. She has a totally unique place of honour in Heaven and therefore also among all of God’s people on earth. The honour given her, therefore, and the dulia she is given is higher than any other being. But it is not latria. The Catholic Church is very clear about that: Catholics do not worship Mary. Repeat after me: "Catholics do not worship Mary." They pray to her to ask her to intercede before God on their behalf. And they do so because of her status, not as a "mere person," but as the mother of Jesus, and because God granted her the status of being full of grace.

Pope John Paul II used the title "Mediatrix" several times, and in his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, he wrote: "The maternal role of Mary towards people in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power: it is mediation in Christ. ... Mary's mediation is intimately linked with her motherhood. ... Through this fullness of grace and supernatural life she was especially predisposed to cooperation with Christ, the one Mediator of human salvation. And such cooperation is precisely this mediation subordinated to the mediation of Christ." This is not blasphemy since the status of Mary as intervenor is clearly subordinate to both Jesus and the Father -- not a joint- or co- anything. [Papal Encyclical of 25 March 1987].

There is nothing in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that says people cannot pray directly to God. The best example of that is the Lord's Prayer (Matthew 6:9-13), said by Protestants and Catholics alike. Surely you must of heard of it. This should be understood clearly: the hyperdulia and dulia given by Catholics to Mary and the saints is ultimately honour given to God -- not for who they are, but for who God made them to be. This directing prayers of intercession to Mary and the saints, of course, does not preclude anyone from praying directly to God. [Catholic Encyclopedia]

"This is the essence of why Mariology is a lie from the devil." There is no "Mariology" in the Catholic Church for the reasons I've outlined above. If you are unable to understand the reasoning and accept the evidence presented, that is not my fault. I acknowledge the Catholic Church has committed some horrendous acts in its history, and that is strongly supported by historical evidence. But personal biases and distorting facts to suit the laughable assertion of Mariology is beyond the pale.

Mary was in need of a Savior like all other sinners. Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Luke 1:47 “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.”

Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man. 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”

 

[Endoscopy]

Let's look at how many Biblical principals catholicism violates.. 1 They call a preist father, and the book of Matheew says that no ,man is to called father, 2 They pray to saints,, which is idol worship. 3 they go to a preist to intercede to God for them when Christ is our priest to intercede for us. 4. The preist tells you to say a few vain repetaive prayers that mean nothing and all is forgiven. 5 , They have graven images in the church.. threr may be more.. but these are the ones i can think of af hand

What you ignore is they are based on the Bible for their teaching. Unlike all of the 7 sisters protestant denominations that currently are secular. Gary North documented the Presbyterian USA denomination was taken over by secular ministers by 1932. Only sub denominations still preach the gospel message. With almost half of the population going to church only a splinter of them ever hear the gospel message. Going from being a Christian country when founded this result is devastating!!

 

[Brian_Graham]

Mary was in need of a Savior like all other sinners. Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Luke 1:47 “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.”

Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man. 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”

Not a few Protestants are surprised to discover the Catholic Church actually agrees that Mary was "saved." Indeed, Mary needed a saviour! However, Mary was "saved" from sin in a most sublime manner. She was given the grace to be "saved" completely from sin so that she never committed even the slightest transgression. Protestants tend to emphasize God’s "salvation" almost exclusively to the forgiveness of sins actually committed. However, Scripture indicates that salvation can also refer to man being protected from sinning before the fact in Jude, verses 24-25.

But what about Romans 3:23? Wouldn’t "all" include Mary? On the surface, this sounds reasonable. But this way of thinking carried to its logical conclusion would list Jesus Christ in the company of sinners as well. No faithful Christian would dare say that. Yet no Christian can deny the plain texts of Scripture declaring Christ’s full humanity either. Thus, to take 1 John 1:8 in a strict, literal sense would apply "any man" to Jesus as well.

The truth is Jesus Christ was an exception to Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:8. And the Bible tells us he was in Hebrews 4:15: "Christ was tempted in all points even as we are and yet he was without sin." The question now is: Are there any other exceptions to this rule? Yes -- millions of them. Both Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:9 deal with personal rather than original sin.

John 1:8 obviously refers to personal sin because in the very next verse, John tells us, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins . . ." We do not confess original sin; we confess personal sins. The context of Romans 3:23 makes clear that it too refers to personal sin in Romans 3:10-14.

Original sin is not something we do; it is something we’ve inherited. Romans chapter three deals with personal sin because it speaks of sins committed by the sinner. With this in mind, consider this: Has a baby in the womb or a child of two ever committed a personal sin? No. To sin a person has to know the act he or she is about to perform is sinful while freely engaging his or her will in carrying it out. Without the proper faculties to enable them to sin, children before the age of accountability and anyone who does not have the use of his mental faculties and will cannot sin. So, there are and have been millions of exceptions to Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:8.

Still, how do we know Mary is an exception to the norm of "all have sinned?" And more specifically, is there biblical support for this claim? Yes, there is biblical support in Luke 1:28-30. Many Protestants will insist this text to be little more than a common greeting of the Archangel Gabriel to Mary. The angel actually communicated a new name or title to her. In Greek, the greeting was kaire, kekaritomene, or "Hail, full of grace." Generally speaking, when one greeted another with kaire, a name or title would be found in the immediate context. "Hail, king of the Jews" in John 19:3 and "Claudias Lysias, to his Excellency the governor Felix, greeting" (Acts 23:26) are two biblical examples of this. The fact that the angel replaces Mary’s name in the greeting with "full of grace" was anything but common. This would be analogous to me saying to one of the tech guys at the university: "Hello, he who fixes computers."

In Hebrew culture, names and name changes tell us something permanent about the character and calling of the one named. Just recall the name changes of Abram to Abraham (from "father" to "father of the multitudes") in Genesis 17:5, and Jacob to Israel ("supplanter" to "he who prevails with God") in Genesis 32:28. In each case, the names reveal something permanent about the one named.

Luke uses the perfect passive participle, kekaritomene, as his "name" for Mary. This word literally means "she who has been graced" in a completed sense. This verbal adjective, "graced," is not just describing a simple past action. Greek has another tense for that. The perfect tense is used to indicate that an action has been completed in the past resulting in a present state of being.

Mary’s power of intercession has as its purpose to obtain for us the application at the appropriate time of Jesus' merits and hers, the product of the love shared by a mother and her Son, acquired during their life on earth and especially on Calvary.
Even during her life on earth, Mary appears in the gospels as distributing graces. Jesus sanctifies the precursor through her when she comes to visit her cousin Elisabeth. Through her he confirms the faith of his disciples at Cana by performing the miracle for which she asked. Through her he confirms John’s faith on Calvary, saying: “Son, behold thy mother.” Through her finally the Holy Spirit gave himself to the Apostles, for we read in the Acts 1:14 that she prayed with them in the Cenacle while they prepared themselves for the apostolate and for the light and strength and graces of Pentecost. And with even greater reason is Mary powerful in her intercession now that she has entered heaven.

The Christian sense of the Catholic faithful assures them that a mother in heaven knows the spiritual needs of the children she has left behind her on earth, and that she prays for their salvation. It is a universal for Catholics to recommend themselves to the prayers of the saints in heaven. As Thomas Aquinas says, when the saints were on earth, their charity led them to pray for their neighbour. With even greater reason, we say that in heaven they continue to pray for their neighbour, because when their charity is magnified by the beatific vision of heaven, it is greater than it was on earth. Their charity in heaven is uninterrupted in its acts and proceeds from a fuller realization of human needs and the value of eternal life.

If Jesus is the only mediator between God and man, why do you ask others to pray for you? Why, during times of tragedy or natural disasters, do you offer "thoughts and prayers" to those suffering from those events?

 

[Endoscopy]

Not a few Protestants are surprised to discover the Catholic Church actually agrees that Mary was "saved." Indeed, Mary needed a saviour! However, Mary was "saved" from sin in a most sublime manner. She was given the grace to be "saved" completely from sin so that she never committed even the slightest transgression. Protestants tend to emphasize God’s "salvation" almost exclusively to the forgiveness of sins actually committed. However, Scripture indicates that salvation can also refer to man being protected from sinning before the fact in Jude, verses 24-25.

But what about Romans 3:23? Wouldn’t "all" include Mary? On the surface, this sounds reasonable. But this way of thinking carried to its logical conclusion would list Jesus Christ in the company of sinners as well. No faithful Christian would dare say that. Yet no Christian can deny the plain texts of Scripture declaring Christ’s full humanity either. Thus, to take 1 John 1:8 in a strict, literal sense would apply "any man" to Jesus as well.

The truth is Jesus Christ was an exception to Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:8. And the Bible tells us he was in Hebrews 4:15: "Christ was tempted in all points even as we are and yet he was without sin." The question now is: Are there any other exceptions to this rule? Yes -- millions of them. Both Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:9 deal with personal rather than original sin.

John 1:8 obviously refers to personal sin because in the very next verse, John tells us, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins . . ." We do not confess original sin; we confess personal sins. The context of Romans 3:23 makes clear that it too refers to personal sin in Romans 3:10-14.

Original sin is not something we do; it is something we’ve inherited. Romans chapter three deals with personal sin because it speaks of sins committed by the sinner. With this in mind, consider this: Has a baby in the womb or a child of two ever committed a personal sin? No. To sin a person has to know the act he or she is about to perform is sinful while freely engaging his or her will in carrying it out. Without the proper faculties to enable them to sin, children before the age of accountability and anyone who does not have the use of his mental faculties and will cannot sin. So, there are and have been millions of exceptions to Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:8.

Still, how do we know Mary is an exception to the norm of "all have sinned?" And more specifically, is there biblical support for this claim? Yes, there is biblical support in Luke 1:28-30. Many Protestants will insist this text to be little more than a common greeting of the Archangel Gabriel to Mary. The angel actually communicated a new name or title to her. In Greek, the greeting was kaire, kekaritomene, or "Hail, full of grace." Generally speaking, when one greeted another with kaire, a name or title would be found in the immediate context. "Hail, king of the Jews" in John 19:3 and "Claudias Lysias, to his Excellency the governor Felix, greeting" (Acts 23:26) are two biblical examples of this. The fact that the angel replaces Mary’s name in the greeting with "full of grace" was anything but common. This would be analogous to me saying to one of the tech guys at the university: "Hello, he who fixes computers."

In Hebrew culture, names and name changes tell us something permanent about the character and calling of the one named. Just recall the name changes of Abram to Abraham (from "father" to "father of the multitudes") in Genesis 17:5, and Jacob to Israel ("supplanter" to "he who prevails with God") in Genesis 32:28. In each case, the names reveal something permanent about the one named.

Luke uses the perfect passive participle, kekaritomene, as his "name" for Mary. This word literally means "she who has been graced" in a completed sense. This verbal adjective, "graced," is not just describing a simple past action. Greek has another tense for that. The perfect tense is used to indicate that an action has been completed in the past resulting in a present state of being.

Mary’s power of intercession has as its purpose to obtain for us the application at the appropriate time of Jesus' merits and hers, the product of the love shared by a mother and her Son, acquired during their life on earth and especially on Calvary.
Even during her life on earth, Mary appears in the gospels as distributing graces. Jesus sanctifies the precursor through her when she comes to visit her cousin Elisabeth. Through her he confirms the faith of his disciples at Cana by performing the miracle for which she asked. Through her he confirms John’s faith on Calvary, saying: “Son, behold thy mother.” Through her finally the Holy Spirit gave himself to the Apostles, for we read in the Acts 1:14 that she prayed with them in the Cenacle while they prepared themselves for the apostolate and for the light and strength and graces of Pentecost. And with even greater reason is Mary powerful in her intercession now that she has entered heaven.

The Christian sense of the Catholic faithful assures them that a mother in heaven knows the spiritual needs of the children she has left behind her on earth, and that she prays for their salvation. It is a universal for Catholics to recommend themselves to the prayers of the saints in heaven. As Thomas Aquinas says, when the saints were on earth, their charity led them to pray for their neighbour. With even greater reason, we say that in heaven they continue to pray for their neighbour, because when their charity is magnified by the beatific vision of heaven, it is greater than it was on earth. Their charity in heaven is uninterrupted in its acts and proceeds from a fuller realization of human needs and the value of eternal life.

If Jesus is the only mediator between God and man, why do you ask others to pray for you? Why, during times of tragedy or natural disasters, do you offer "thoughts and prayers" to those suffering from those events?

This kind of reasoning is why I disagree with the Catholic Church. Mary outside of being blessed by having Jesus was an ordinary woman who sinned like all of us. She is included in "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God "

 

[garee]

Your definition of idolatry is not the biblical definition. It is a definition that has been corrupted by a Christian denomination to suit their own purposes. "Idolatry" literally means the worship of an "idol," in the form of a physical image, such as a statue or icon. In Abrahamic religions, namely Christianity, Islam and Judaism, idolatry connotes the worship of something or someone other than God as if it were God or a god.

It has been corrupted by the Catholic denomination in order to hide the true reason (idolatry)

I would say it’s not your definition which is people worship inanimate objects rather than using them to put a face on disembodied workers with familiar spirits which you must call patron saints in order to create another source of faith other than scripture alone therefore making the word of God (sola scriptura)without effect.

2 Kings give us some insight of those kinds of image idols and who God sent his a apostle(Josiah) to put those abominations away

2Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord.......... (sola scriptura)

What God calls an abomination the Catholic Church must call patron saints.

Genesis 31:19 YLT… And Laban hath gone to shear his flock, and Rachel stealeth the teraphim which her father hath

Rachel’s family practiced that Pagan practice. Many Catholic family use a bathtub in the yard with the assumed image of Mary . They have images that protect family or travel patron saints real estate saints ETC as a pantheon of familiar gods.

A teraphim is a household idol used in respect to communing with deceased family members (necromancy) or members of the Catholic sect like patron saints (3’500 and rising)

 

[Brian_Graham]

Fatal flaw: Making an assumption -- "which you must call patron saints".
I don't call them anything. The reason for that is that I'm not Catholic. Surprise !!!

 

[Brian_Graham]

garee:

Fatal flaw: Making an assumption -- "which you must call patron saints".
I don't call them anything. The reason for that is that I'm not Catholic. Surprise !!!

 

[Brian_Graham]

This kind of reasoning is why I disagree with the Catholic Church. Mary outside of being blessed by having Jesus was an ordinary woman who sinned like all of us. She is included in "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God "

This kind of reasoning is called Christian apologetics, and it is taught by both Catholic and Protestant theology schools and seminaries. So apparently, you also disagree with Protestant theology schools. Interesting.

According to you, no one has the authority to override "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." I maintain, however, that God has the ultimate authority over the Bible, which includes the power to override anything written in the Bible. That is because only He is all-powerful, all-knowing, and possesses infinite wisdom. And it appears He did just that. When his messenger first approached Mary, the angel told her she was "full of grace." That grace can come from only one source, yet she did not repent any sins. How is that possible?

 

[Magenta]

Magenta,

Thanks for that. My post referred only to the specifics of the Catholic Catechism, which is the official teaching of the Catholic Church. In that regard, I could not include anything said or written by or about Catholic teaching by anyone other than by a Pope in an ex cathedra decree.

There are only two ex cathedra dogmas. Do you find it odd that the RCC makes mandatory for the Roman Catholic the acceptance of two dogmas which have little to do with Jesus, and zero Scriptural support?

 

[jameen]

Any religion can be evil if that religion is led by leaders and preachers who are lovers of money, unmerciful and hypocritical law breaker of God's law like what happened in Israel and during the time of Jesus.

Remember Judaism is the first religion established by God before Christianity.

 

[Magenta]

This kind of reasoning is called Christian apologetics, and it is taught by both Catholic and Protestant theology schools and seminaries. So apparently, you also disagree with Protestant theology schools. Interesting.

According to you, no one has the authority to override "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." I maintain, however, that God has the ultimate authority over the Bible, which includes the power to override anything written in the Bible. That is because only He is all-powerful, all-knowing, and possesses infinite wisdom. And it appears He did just that. When his messenger first approached Mary, the angel told her she was "full of grace." That grace can come from only one source, yet she did not repent any sins. How is that possible?

Mary admitted her need of a Savior, and made sacrifices for personal sin/s. She considered her status in the eyes of God to be low; nor did Jesus elevate Mary above others.