Trinity vs. Oneness

[distinctiveministry]

Deuteronomy 4:35 "To you it was shown that you might know that YHWH, He is God; there is no other besides Him"
Deuteronomy 4:39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that YHWH, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other"
1 Kings 8:60 "so that all the peoples of the earth may know that YHWH is God; there is no one else"
Isaiah 45:5 "I am YHWH, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God"
Isaiah 45:18 "For thus says YHWH, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), 'I am YHWH, and there is none else.'"
Isaiah 45:21 "Is it not I, YHWH? And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none except Me"

The point of all these verses is to demonstrate how clearly scripture states that there is NO ONE other than YHWH who is God. You all say that YHWH is the Father, Y'shua is the Son, and there is the Holy Spirit. You say Y'shua is not YHWH, nor the Holy Spirit. You say YHWH is not the Holy Spirit either. The Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit, correct? Well, the Father says there is no one besides Him. He doesn't say "there is no one besides God", no, He says "There is no one besides YHWH."

YHWH fashioned for Himself a body that He might be a man like us, that He might be our salvation. YHWH is salvation. Y'shua means exactly that- YHWH is salvation. He made a tabernacle of human flesh and dwelled among us, fully God, and also fully man.

 

[distinctiveministry]

Can you beleive in the Oneness doctrine and confess Jesus and still go to hell? That is the real question for you. Is Oneness your Shibboleth?

Yes, you can still go to hell. Our salvation depends not on belief, but faith. Faith is belief in action. If you believe but do not bear fruit then you are the seed in shallow soil, among the rocks or the thorns. They all BELIEVED, but without fruit there is no hope of salvation. Only ONE of the four soils leads to life.

 

[phil36]

Deuteronomy 4:35 "To you it was shown that you might know that YHWH, He is God; there is no other besides Him"
Deuteronomy 4:39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that YHWH, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other"
1 Kings 8:60 "so that all the peoples of the earth may know that YHWH is God; there is no one else"
Isaiah 45:5 "I am YHWH, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God"
Isaiah 45:18 "For thus says YHWH, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), 'I am YHWH, and there is none else.'"
Isaiah 45:21 "Is it not I, YHWH? And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none except Me"

The point of all these verses is to demonstrate how clearly scripture states that there is NO ONE other than YHWH who is God. You all say that YHWH is the Father, Y'shua is the Son, and there is the Holy Spirit. You say Y'shua is not YHWH, nor the Holy Spirit. You say YHWH is not the Holy Spirit either. The Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit, correct? Well, the Father says there is no one besides Him. He doesn't say "there is no one besides God", no, He says "There is no one besides YHWH."

YHWH fashioned for Himself a body that He might be a man like us, that He might be our salvation. YHWH is salvation. Y'shua means exactly that- YHWH is salvation. He made a tabernacle of human flesh and dwelled among us, fully God, and also fully man.

Distinctive, I though you had studied at bible college?? anyhow you are again pointing the wrong direction. Jesus is not another God, He is God

I will agree with you, there is no other God besides God He is one God.. Distinctive why do you think God kept telling the Israelites this??

God, was telling the Israelites that He was not like the other pagan nations who had multiple Gods, the Israelite had one God. Yet as we see progressively in Scripture as with most other things God progressively reveals Himself.

The Father is not the son, the son is not the Father, and the Holy spirit is not the Father or the Son yet they are one substance/essence, three in one, and not three manisfestations but one.

God is three yet One, there is no other besides God (Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God, but not the Father).

Distinctive, it may well be that you hold to oneness doctrine, but I am sure you are aware that this has always been classed as heresy. and actually most of what you have said is just a rehash of other posts.

Blessings

Phil

 

[phil36]

Yes, you can still go to hell. Our salvation depends not on belief, but faith. Faith is belief in action. If you believe but do not bear fruit then you are the seed in shallow soil, among the rocks or the thorns. They all BELIEVED, but without fruit there is no hope of salvation. Only ONE of the four soils leads to life.

You know, that is very good, but if you do not have Faith in the God of Scripture, exactly where is your Faiht Distinctive? the rest is like chaff in the wind if you have the wrong God!

Blessings

Phil

 

[Red33]

Belief in the Trinity is a necessary condition for salvation? That's so absolutely unbiblical it scares me. Scripture is at least a little vague on the nature of God or there would be no discussion whatsoever. You had better read Jesus again and find out what it really takes for someone to be saved. *Hint* It isn't "belief". I know plenty of "believers" (Trinitarians all) who will be consumed by the fires of hell because they think, just like Israel often did in the OT, that "belief" in God and identification with His people (for Christians, going to church) puts one in a right relationship with God. We both know how that worked out for ancient Israel. Exile? Diaspora? Captivity? Yes, Yes, Yes. How many Christians today think that they are forgiven for everything and that they have perfect standing before God? Practically all of them. And yet..."if anyone says that he is without sin he decieves himself and the truth is not in him. But if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, forgiving our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness." The modern evangelical church makes me so angry for exactly this reason, teaching that a confession of belief in Jesus, if sincere, magically makes one right with God and, for the Calvinists out there, ensures forever that one is "safe". Mind you, I'm not talking about Christians who think they can go on blatantly sinning. I'm talking about "good people", average Christians who "clean up their act" but never clean up their hearts.
Point is, you can believe in the Trinity and confess Jesus and still go to hell. You can also believe that God is numerically one (or three), and Jesus is Lord, and be saved if you are obedient to Christ's FULL teaching. Understanding the NATURE of God is not a requirement for salvation; rather loving God, repenting your sin, and obeying Christ as Lord.

The embolden reasoning that you have stated above scares me and tells me that you have little understanding of the grace of God and the cross of Jesus Christ. When a sinner believes in his heart by faith in Jesus Christ and the work he accomplished upon the cross, that sinner is forgiven and cleansed of all sin, is given a gift of perfect righteousness and the gift of eternal life and receives the promise of the Holy Spirit. God has justified and put that sinner in right standing with him instantly without any works, including the work of repentance. The sinner never has to repent of the sin that Christ has already put away and been judged for. He simply acknowledges that it has been put away and judged through the cross and receives forgiveness and cleansing by grace and through faith in Christ.

The cross exhibited the love of God toward the sinner through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Loving God, repenting of sin and obeying the full teachings of Christ does not save anyone. Only the preaching of the gospel of Christ's death, burial and resurrection of Christ is the power of God unto salvation. To even have to think that I have to love God as a requirement for salvation is a violation of the Lamb being sent and slain for the sins of the world. We love God because he first loved us. Loving him has nothing to do with being saved by him. He loved us by sending his Son and we receive the love of God when we believe upon the Son and what he did on the cross for us as the Lamb. We had nothing to do with the salvation that God has provided through his Son. If we can not get that straight then we are in serious trouble.

When a sinner hears the gospel of Christ the sinner's faith is in the hope of the cross and in the activity of the love of God that sent his Son to die in his place. The just for the unjust (1Pt 3:18). This is called theantric action that involved the work of every person of the trinity. The Father planned it, the Son executed it on the cross and the Holy Spirit reveals it to our hearts. When this happens in the heart of the sinner, that sinner believes in his heart unto righteousness (Rom 10:10,11). and with his mouth confession is made unto salvation. The only activity that our faith has is in the finished work of Christ that provides salvation by grace.

 

[distinctiveministry]

I did study in Bible College, thank you, Moody Bible in Chicago, in fact, since you and others around here probably have heard of it and have some respect for it. It is sad, however, that you bring up that I studied in Bible college in order to ridicule my post as if to say it is somehow not up to the "bible college grad" level.

You missed the point of my post entirely. I know you say God is One. I understand that perfectly. But as I clearly stated, God is not in those passages just saying that there is no other God, but that God is none other than YHWH. Since you and all Trinitarians distinguish persons within a godhead, you have others besides YHWH. Not other Gods, I get that; don't bring it up again if you have nothing new to add. You have other "persons" besides YHWH, however. There are no other gods beside YHWH, but there is no one else, either, no other person. Again, there is no one besides YHWH. No other god, no other person. No one.

 

[Red33]

Yes, you can still go to hell. Our salvation depends not on belief, but faith. Faith is belief in action. If you believe but do not bear fruit then you are the seed in shallow soil, among the rocks or the thorns. They all BELIEVED, but without fruit there is no hope of salvation. Only ONE of the four soils leads to life.

Fruit is dependent on the believer trusting and abiding in the vine. The work that God has begun in us when we first believed will continue through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will guide us in the truth and teach us to abide in Christ and to let his words abide in us. This is how we learn to bear fruit. Sometimes believers never bear fruit until the end of their life and some only bear the fruit of being born of the incorruptible seed. Every believer has the gift of God's righteousness imputed to them through the abundance of grace when they believed (Rom 5;17). The fruit of that righteousness will take the believer into the kingdom of God and will be acknowledged by the Father and the Son who has been holding that believer in the palm of their hand the whole time. That is God's mercy that regenerates the sinner without works.

 

[phil36]

I did study in Bible College, thank you, Moody Bible in Chicago, in fact, since you and others around here probably have heard of it and have some respect for it. It is sad, however, that you bring up that I studied in Bible college in order to ridicule my post as if to say it is somehow not up to the "bible college grad" level.

You missed the point of my post entirely. I know you say God is One. I understand that perfectly. But as I clearly stated, God is not in those passages just saying that there is no other God, but that God is none other than YHWH. Since you and all Trinitarians distinguish persons within a godhead, you have others besides YHWH. Not other Gods, I get that; don't bring it up again if you have nothing new to add. You have other "persons" besides YHWH, however. There are no other gods beside YHWH, but there is no one else, either, no other person. Again, there is no one besides YHWH. No other god, no other person. No one.

Mmmm I think you have missed the point entirely Distinctive! God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit share the same essence/substance this makes them three yet one, they all share the same attributes. and you will also be aware of the plural names for God, which rabbis could never really explain, as in Genesis, let 'us' and 'our', I have ansered this in another post, one regarding the rabbinic thought that God was talking to angels, we know this cannot be the case as we are not made in the image of angels.

The other is very interesting and one that the oneness crowd tend to hold, that of Magisterial plurality, ie, if a king where to say.'we pardon you of your crime'' the king actually just means himself, however, knowhere in scripture regarding a king do we have this plurality unless it is God Himself, and you don;t find it in the Hebrew texts. so this is not convincing either.

Another point, I would suggest you find out what 'makes' a person! what does it mean to say God is one yet three 'persons' what does that mean.. you obviously do not know. and of course if you had studied well at moody you will know this.

Doctrinal Statement (just the first paragraph at moodys)

ARTICLE I
God is a Person who has revealed Himself as a Trinity in unity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three Persons and yet but one God.
(Deuteronomy 6:4; Matthew 28:19; 1 Corinthians 8:6)

and if you go to see their explanations this is a central truth.

blessings

Phil

 

[VW]

That's tautological and doesn't inform us of anything. That's like saying everyone who has met George knows George is George...

Great, but if you don't know George is George, have you met George? Obviously not, given what you've said.

Well, George ain't the living God, is he?

 

[VW]

You know, that is very good, but if you do not have Faith in the God of Scripture, exactly where is your Faiht Distinctive? the rest is like chaff in the wind if you have the wrong God!

Blessings

Phil

I have said it before and I will say it again. God is not of the scripture, the scripture is of God.
I know that this sounds like semantics, but it is a very important distinction.

 

[VW]

Mmmm I think you have missed the point entirely Distinctive! God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit share the same essence/substance this makes them three yet one, they all share the same attributes. and you will also be aware of the plural names for God, which rabbis could never really explain, as in Genesis, let 'us' and 'our', I have ansered this in another post, one regarding the rabbinic thought that God was talking to angels, we know this cannot be the case as we are not made in the image of angels.

The other is very interesting and one that the oneness crowd tend to hold, that of Magisterial plurality, ie, if a king where to say.'we pardon you of your crime'' the king actually just means himself, however, knowhere in scripture regarding a king do we have this plurality unless it is God Himself, and you don;t find it in the Hebrew texts. so this is not convincing either.

Another point, I would suggest you find out what 'makes' a person! what does it mean to say God is one yet three 'persons' what does that mean.. you obviously do not know. and of course if you had studied well at moody you will know this.

Doctrinal Statement (just the first paragraph at moodys)

ARTICLE I
God is a Person who has revealed Himself as a Trinity in unity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three Persons and yet but one God.
(Deuteronomy 6:4; Matthew 28:19; 1 Corinthians 8:6)

and if you go to see their explanations this is a central truth.

blessings

Phil

And the point is that salvation is not of truth, but of relationship, of grace. If we hold that one must believe certain things to be saved, but ignore the relationship side of the equation, then we have done a horrible wrong to those we are speaking to. But if we give the fact of relationship with God, even if we get some of the truth wrong, we still have one who comes to know God. Notice I said know, and not know about.

 

[phil36]

I have said it before and I will say it again. God is not of the scripture, the scripture is of God.
I know that this sounds like semantics, but it is a very important distinction.

Hi Vic,

I know that yet it is wholly inspired by God to tell us of Him, it is not a general revelation, like nature, it is 'special revelation' it is His 'Word'.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

it is:

1)God breathed

2) useful for teaching

3) rebuking (this is very important....it rebukes wrong doctrine)!!!!

4)Correcting

5) TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS (do we train ourselves without it?)

this is all so that the man of God, may be thoroughly equipped for every good work


and

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

So where is the Gospel... God has given us a written record!!!! for this is the power of God.

And of course Paul mentions as it is written This is here we find all our bread for living, throuhg the power of the Holy Spirit, Our food is God's very own word.

That is why this debate is important. is God a liar? and basically if you take the heretical view the oneness guys take, you are then bringing into disrepute God's word...Is it the truth.

Blessings

Phil

 

[phil36]

And the point is that salvation is not of truth, but of relationship, of grace. If we hold that one must believe certain things to be saved, but ignore the relationship side of the equation, then we have done a horrible wrong to those we are speaking to. But if we give the fact of relationship with God, even if we get some of the truth wrong, we still have one who comes to know God. Notice I said know, and not know about.

VW, I will just anser you with this..

And the truth will set you free.

John 8:31-32 "Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

 

[distinctiveministry]

Okay Phil,
I studied well at Moody, graduated with Honors, in fact. I know the doctrinal statement like the back of my hand. Every student had to sign it to get in and again to graduate. At the time, I was able to do that with a clear conscience. In the years since then I have continued to study the Word as much as possible and have come to conclusions other than what Moody holds to be true. The trouble with Moody (and I recognized this even while a student there) and so many other Christian and Bible colleges and seminaries, is that they tend to teach students WHAT to think rather than HOW to think. I noticed in my time at Moody that many students, myself included, were full of knowledge but not love. I know a lot about the scriptures, councils, early church, church fathers, theology and hermeneutics. I read a variety of theologies that I agree with and disagree with. I know that my knowledge and understanding is incomplete. I will never be dogmatic as you are, because I know that my understanding is limited and will be until I see God face to face. I will be a student until the day that I die.

I know the doctrine of the Trinity. I understand it completely. I know the scriptures used to support it. I don't disagree with the doctrine because I fail to understand it, I disagree with it because I think it fails to completely agree with what scripture says. ALL of scripture. It seems like a good fit for certain passages, but I don't think it best explains ALL of what scripture says.

Please do not question my diligence as a student, as an interpreter of scripture, or my knowledge of trinitarian doctrine and theology. We interpret differently. This doesn't mean I'm stupid, blind, a poor student, or careless, just as it doesn't mean that you are any of these things.

 

[phil36]

Okay Phil,
I studied well at Moody, graduated with Honors, in fact. I know the doctrinal statement like the back of my hand. Every student had to sign it to get in and again to graduate. At the time, I was able to do that with a clear conscience. In the years since then I have continued to study the Word as much as possible and have come to conclusions other than what Moody holds to be true. The trouble with Moody (and I recognized this even while a student there) and so many other Christian and Bible colleges and seminaries, is that they tend to teach students WHAT to think rather than HOW to think. I noticed in my time at Moody that many students, myself included, were full of knowledge but not love. I know a lot about the scriptures, councils, early church, church fathers, theology and hermeneutics. I read a variety of theologies that I agree with and disagree with. I know that my knowledge and understanding is incomplete. I will never be dogmatic as you are, because I know that my understanding is limited and will be until I see God face to face. I will be a student until the day that I die.

I know the doctrine of the Trinity. I understand it completely. I know the scriptures used to support it. I don't disagree with the doctrine because I fail to understand it, I disagree with it because I think it fails to completely agree with what scripture says. ALL of scripture. It seems like a good fit for certain passages, but I don't think it best explains ALL of what scripture says.

Please do not question my diligence as a student, as an interpreter of scripture, or my knowledge of trinitarian doctrine and theology. We interpret differently. This doesn't mean I'm stupid, blind, a poor student, or careless, just as it doesn't mean that you are any of these things.

No ones knowledge of God is complete, yet, what you say you once believed and now don't has always been the standard of truth. What you now confess to believe is heresy and as you full well know has always been so. this is the frightening part, that you you actually know who God is the deny Him.

Of course no doubt you will come back and say something like: the Doctrine of the Trinity was only made by man in the 2nd/3rd century and is not the truth of the apostles.. well, you should know that this is somewhat deceptive.

The reason the Trinity was articulated and debated over at that time was because of people like you who had other ideas of who God was, they wanted to change what was already believed and that is the triune God. So it was not just because some guys thought it was a good idea, but because heretics started and tried to gain influence with their heresy within the early church.

It is not upto me what you believe distinctive, but I can say and testify with Christians through the ages before me, you follow heresy and by doing so bringing into question the truthfulness of Scripture.

You are following in the footsteps of heretics (Monarchianism)

Blessings

Phil

 

[distinctiveministry]

Mmmm I think you have missed the point entirely Distinctive! God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit share the same essence/substance this makes them three yet one, they all share the same attributes. and you will also be aware of the plural names for God, which rabbis could never really explain, as in Genesis, let 'us' and 'our', I have ansered this in another post, one regarding the rabbinic thought that God was talking to angels, we know this cannot be the case as we are not made in the image of angels.

The other is very interesting and one that the oneness crowd tend to hold, that of Magisterial plurality, ie, if a king where to say.'we pardon you of your crime'' the king actually just means himself, however, knowhere in scripture regarding a king do we have this plurality unless it is God Himself, and you don;t find it in the Hebrew texts. so this is not convincing either.

Another point, I would suggest you find out what 'makes' a person! what does it mean to say God is one yet three 'persons' what does that mean.. you obviously do not know. and of course if you had studied well at moody you will know this.

Doctrinal Statement (just the first paragraph at moodys)

ARTICLE I
God is a Person who has revealed Himself as a Trinity in unity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three Persons and yet but one God.
(Deuteronomy 6:4; Matthew 28:19; 1 Corinthians 8:6)

and if you go to see their explanations this is a central truth.

blessings

Phil

Phil,
Refer back to posts 165 and 167 in this thread and you'll see that I initiated the conversation about defining persons and in 167 provided my definition- independent self-awareness and moral responsibility. I don't believe that the Son or the Spirit possess independent self-awareness and thus don't believe them to be separate persons of the godhead.

 

[Red33]

Some of you have turned your knowledge of the trinity into meat offered to idols. Not idolatry but meat offered to idols. You have taken that which is sacred and made it profane and have become puffed up in your knowledge and even accused others of heresy with your meat. That meat does not commend you to God and you are no better than others nor are you worse. Everything that we believe in the scriptures must come through the cross or it will have no life. Life comes forth out of death. Not only are we to be dead to self through the cross but also to our understanding of the scriptures. We are to forsake our thoughts because our thoughts are not God's thoughts even if we learned them at Moody Bible Institute or in another setting. All of you have forsaken the cross in your prowess and contrived intellectualism and have put your rude knowledge ahead of getting to know Christ and him crucified. There is no wisdom of knowing Christ and you are not wise in this discussion because you compete and compare yourselves with one another instead of by love serving one another. I suggest that all of you read (1Cor 8) a few times to see what God would speak to your heart and consider those that might have eaten what you have fed them being offended and you having sinned.

 

[phil36]

Some of you have turned your knowledge of the trinity into meat offered to idols. Not idolatry but meat offered to idols. You have taken that which is sacred and made it profane and have become puffed up in your knowledge and even accused others of heresy with your meat. That meat does not commend you to God and you are no better than others nor are you worse. Everything that we believe in the scriptures must come through the cross or it will have no life. Life comes forth out of death. Not only are we to be dead to self through the cross but also to our understanding of the scriptures. We are to forsake our thoughts because our thoughts are not God's thoughts even if we learned them at Moody Bible Institute or in another setting. All of you have forsaken the cross in your prowess and contrived intellectualism and have put your rude knowledge ahead of getting to know Christ and him crucified. There is no wisdom of knowing Christ and you are not wise in this discussion because you compete and compare yourselves with one another instead of by love serving one another. I suggest that all of you read (1Cor 8) a few times to see what God would speak to your heart and consider those that might have eaten what you have fed them being offended and you having sinned.

I assume you are talking to everyone in this discussion Red, as you said 'all'. Can I remind you Red, and this is an important issue.

What Jesus? what Atonement? for we are discussing the very nature of God, which we all should not take lightly, but discuss we have been and as Christians we basically do it everyday.

Within Christianity any form of 'Monarchianism (there are two forms) have been deemed as heretics, for this very reason, they reject who Christ is.

Now Red this is somewhat different from eating meat offered to idols, eating meat offered to idols was not heretical. Oneness is and always has been.

No wonder the church is in the state it is in. everyone comes nicely together, oh ,by the way it really doesnt matter what you believe but lets just all be nice and happy together we will just show love.

Sorry Red that does not cut it. It is out of love that we correct these heresies, for that is what they are. and it is out of love for those who believe them, for those espouse them, and for the love Of God.

What do you think would have happened Red if the church did not fight the early heresies? God used those who have went before us to correct heresies. so this debate is nothing new, except this is born from unitarians and oneness pentecostals. Just an old heresy in a new dress.

Blessings

Phil

 

[distinctiveministry]

There with the "heretics" again, Phil. To Catholics YOU are a heretic. To Eastern Orthodox YOU are a heretic. To many branches of Protestantism YOU are a heretic. If you want to call me a heretic again, that's fine. For what I may be called on account of my reliance upon scripture and not other people's traditions, I'll accept. YOU rely on the councils, on what "others" have said is right. YOU think that because most believe in the Trinity that it must be right. Whatever. I'm here to discuss interpretations, not throw around judgments and condemnation lightly upon brothers and sisters who with me, in one voice declare that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, in the flesh, who was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, died a substitutionary death, rose again on the third day, and ascended to heaven.

now STOP calling people heretics. seriously. STOP.

 

[phil36]

There with the "heretics" again, Phil. To Catholics YOU are a heretic. To Eastern Orthodox YOU are a heretic. To many branches of Protestantism YOU are a heretic. If you want to call me a heretic again, that's fine. For what I may be called on account of my reliance upon scripture and not other people's traditions, I'll accept. YOU rely on the councils, on what "others" have said is right. YOU think that because most believe in the Trinity that it must be right. Whatever. I'm here to discuss interpretations, not throw around judgments and condemnation lightly upon brothers and sisters who with me, in one voice declare that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, in the flesh, who was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, died a substitutionary death, rose again on the third day, and ascended to heaven.

now STOP calling people heretics. seriously. STOP.

If you believe heresy, you believe heresy. Distinctive you follow heresy, now in the other church when the heretics started crawling out of the woodwork.. did they just embrace them, give them a big hug, and say come fellowship with us, it does not matter than you follow a false doctrine of God.

OF Course they didnt and you of course should know this. they cast them out of the church as heretics. Now Now Distinctive, you say I rely on man and mans doctrines, you Know that to be false as you your self actually follow a mans doctrines, in fact there where 2 or three in the 2nd/3rd century whose heretical theology you actually follow.

Of course you are going to deny the early creeds especially as they articulate Christian belief. Now as explained earlier, they only came about because of people whom you now follolw came along with heresies, that the church did not believe, hence the articulation of the creed.


It really does not matter how you dress it up, what you follow, and lets make this clear, it is not because you don't know anybetter, it is out of your own will you choose to follow a heresy. Unitarians oneness, what you believe about God is and always has been classed a heresy.

If I smoker, I would be called a smoker.... If I follow heresy???

It is the historical testimony of christianity that what you and onesnes pentecostals follow is an ancient heresy, it is the same as legalism it has truly never went away, but always lurking in the background waiting an opportune time to pounce

The main reason that you get away with it so much is that those professing to be Christians do not know their bibles.. bible illeteracy.. deceptions is wieghtless that can be pulled over anyones eyes.


Blessings

Phil

Blessings

Phil