Trinity vs. Oneness

[distinctiveministry]

VW,

You keep saying and pointing the finger at me about this 'oneness' being a heresy, I take you do no church history? or atleast you have read the posts regarding this matter? I re-iterating what the church since the second century has called 'oneness' theology', and now in modern times even the pentecostals deem them the same.

First of all let me clarify something, the truth of God comes by the Spirit by means of His word. Scripture is the Standard of Truth!

Now concerning your concern over man made doctrines, Firstly, 'Monarchianism' and its counterparts, where man made, this idea came in the 2nd century, it had already been the belief from the time of the Apostles, the Trinity, the triune God. That is why, we have it articulated at a later date, because up until a late date in the early church The triune God is what people believed. and as you are also aware as other heresies came along.


Secondly, you agree with the creed then rubbish it?? you might have well as said just because the creed is true, doesnt mean it is true?? anyhow, to inform you again The nicene creed was just affirmation of the church had already believed, and its formulation only came because of the result of heresies and thos intent on decieving people.

You see VW it is not just an issue of who God says He is, its also an issue regarding the Atonement and who the person of Jesus is.. Did the Father die for you... ?

Thirdly can I ask you a question VW.

Do you have Faith in the triune God of Scripture that the Holy Spirit inspired and the Church has always believed ?

or

Do you believe in the 'oneness' God, that never appeared until the 2nd century, was deemed as heresy, and always has been even to this day even their brothers in pentecostal church cast them out.

So which God do you have Faith in VW?


Blessings

Phil

My God, Phil,
VW is a Trinitarian and has said so several times. You are not even kind to those who agree with you, just because they are displaying a loving and caring attitude toward those you hate. You should be kicked of CC or something for being so pugilistic.

 

[phil36]

Thank you VW.
YOU are a true brother in Christ, whom we both love and serve as our Lord and Savior. I can see that we disagree about the nature of God, and yet we are both willing to charitably speak the truth to one another for the sake of building each other (and others, too) up in Christ. While Phil is concerned that I am teaching another gospel that is not a gospel at all, you see that you and I both want nothing more than for as many people as possible to know Christ and to have the Spirit of God dwelling in them and teaching them the truth. I don't resent your Trinitarian beliefs, even though I disagree, but rather I praise God that through you, many more will come into the light and be adopted as children of the Living God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I would have you know that I moved from being Trinitarian to Oneness beliefs because I tried to defend Trinitarian doctrine and was unable to do so against some very persuasive, very scriptural teaching. I realized that as a Trinitarian, I was understanding God as three persons, then trying from that point to understand His Oneness. I held the threeness to be true, but could not defend His Oneness adequately and maintain His threeness. Then I was led to understand that, just as with Israel and all Jews, including the apostles themselves, we must begin with God's Oneness, then understand the revelation of Christ and the Spirit in light of the Oneness of God. I am convinced that the disciples, faithful and Torah observant Jews, would have rejected Christ had he claimed to be another person of a Godhead that had not been clearly revealed in the Torah. Since He instead clearly said that when you see Him, you see the Father, the disciples could maintain their faithful Torah obedience by understanding Jesus to be God in the flesh, that is, YHWH in an earthly tabernacle not built by human hands, but God Himself.
Again, the main difference between Trinitarians and Oneness is the starting point, whether three persons, or One God.
At any rate, I didn't intend to get into all of that, but just to thank you for being persistant in your beliefs and in your loving attitude toward those with whom you disagree. I see Christ in you.

Hi Distinctive,

And you try and tell me you once held the Trinitarian God.. You should know then that we hold to one true God, put three persons in One.

I thin you maybe fail also to realise that the Majority infact more than the majority of Torah believing Jews di reject Jesus because He said He was God. that is an elementary fact Distinctive.

I also find it amusing that you you see Christ in VW, I know VW is a christian and I have no real doubt of that, However you hold that Christ is the Father and not a seperate person so are you and VW talking about the same person.. I don't think so.

Your post above is not even factually correct Disticntive. Or else you would mislead and say those who belive in the triune God of Christianity do not believe He is one, for we do, and the worst part is you know it.

One God, three person. That is the God of Christianity.


Blessings

Phil

 

[charisenexcelcis]

with all due respect charis, by condemning someone as a heretic???

Consumed, you know me. Do you think that is what I meant?

 

[phil36]

My God, Phil,
VW is a Trinitarian and has said so several times. You are not even kind to those who agree with you, just because they are displaying a loving and caring attitude toward those you hate. You should be kicked of CC or something for being so pugilistic.

Distinctive I know VW is Trinitarian. And VW does not agree with me at all, I say you believe heresy and VW either isnt sure or doesnt care. Please get your facts right.

Oneness is heresy, always has been, and you do not like anyone telling you this..imagine someone having the gall to say this?? it has been said for the last 1900 years Distinctive.

If anyhting those teaching heresy should be kicked, but I wouldnt ask that. unfortunatly the truth is hurting some, and don't like.


Blessings

Phil

 

[VW]

VW,

You keep saying and pointing the finger at me about this 'oneness' being a heresy, I take you do no church history? or atleast you have read the posts regarding this matter? I re-iterating what the church since the second century has called 'oneness' theology', and now in modern times even the pentecostals deem them the same.

First of all let me clarify something, the truth of God comes by the Spirit by means of His word. Scripture is the Standard of Truth!

Now concerning your concern over man made doctrines, Firstly, 'Monarchianism' and its counterparts, where man made, this idea came in the 2nd century, it had already been the belief from the time of the Apostles, the Trinity, the triune God. That is why, we have it articulated at a later date, because up until a late date in the early church The triune God is what people believed. and as you are also aware as other heresies came along.


Secondly, you agree with the creed then rubbish it?? you might have well as said just because the creed is true, doesnt mean it is true?? anyhow, to inform you again The nicene creed was just affirmation of the church had already believed, and its formulation only came because of the result of heresies and thos intent on decieving people.

You see VW it is not just an issue of who God says He is, its also an issue regarding the Atonement and who the person of Jesus is.. Did the Father die for you... ?

Thirdly can I ask you a question VW.

Do you have Faith in the triune God of Scripture that the Holy Spirit inspired and the Church has always believed ?

or

Do you believe in the 'oneness' God, that never appeared until the 2nd century, was deemed as heresy, and always has been even to this day even their brothers in pentecostal church cast them out.

So which God do you have Faith in VW?


Blessings

Phil

Truthfully, they are the same God. Why? Because God is such that no words can describe Him, not even close to adequately. How a person sees God is individual, and this vision is from and of and by the Spirit, on the basis of faith in Jesus Christ. The trinity is true not because of the Creed, but because of the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

So, I have faith in the God who showed Himself to me, showed me grace, allowed me to draw near to Him through Jesus Christ, who gave me new life by His Spirit.

Blessings right back at you.

 

[VW]

Thank you VW.
YOU are a true brother in Christ, whom we both love and serve as our Lord and Savior. I can see that we disagree about the nature of God, and yet we are both willing to charitably speak the truth to one another for the sake of building each other (and others, too) up in Christ. While Phil is concerned that I am teaching another gospel that is not a gospel at all, you see that you and I both want nothing more than for as many people as possible to know Christ and to have the Spirit of God dwelling in them and teaching them the truth. I don't resent your Trinitarian beliefs, even though I disagree, but rather I praise God that through you, many more will come into the light and be adopted as children of the Living God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I would have you know that I moved from being Trinitarian to Oneness beliefs because I tried to defend Trinitarian doctrine and was unable to do so against some very persuasive, very scriptural teaching. I realized that as a Trinitarian, I was understanding God as three persons, then trying from that point to understand His Oneness. I held the threeness to be true, but could not defend His Oneness adequately and maintain His threeness. Then I was led to understand that, just as with Israel and all Jews, including the apostles themselves, we must begin with God's Oneness, then understand the revelation of Christ and the Spirit in light of the Oneness of God. I am convinced that the disciples, faithful and Torah observant Jews, would have rejected Christ had he claimed to be another person of a Godhead that had not been clearly revealed in the Torah. Since He instead clearly said that when you see Him, you see the Father, the disciples could maintain their faithful Torah obedience by understanding Jesus to be God in the flesh, that is, YHWH in an earthly tabernacle not built by human hands, but God Himself.
Again, the main difference between Trinitarians and Oneness is the starting point, whether three persons, or One God.
At any rate, I didn't intend to get into all of that, but just to thank you for being persistant in your beliefs and in your loving attitude toward those with whom you disagree. I see Christ in you.

I once was a believer in oneness. Now I believe in the trinity. Why? Because of how God saved me from myself. He judged me as a bible believing christian who was living in sin without really seeking to be free from it. He judged my life as unworthy, deserving of hell. He took my life and placed it in Jesus on the cross. He them filled me with the Holy Spirit and His love. Through the Holy Spirit I have communication with the Father and with the Son, not to forget that I also hear and talk to the Spirit too.

In Christ,
vic

 

[phil36]

Truthfully, they are the same God. Why? Because God is such that no words can describe Him, not even close to adequately. How a person sees God is individual, and this vision is from and of and by the Spirit, on the basis of faith in Jesus Christ. The trinity is true not because of the Creed, but because of the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

So, I have faith in the God who showed Himself to me, showed me grace, allowed me to draw near to Him through Jesus Christ, who gave me new life by His Spirit.

Blessings right back at you.

VW,

that statement is certainly not true and very far from the truth, I must admit I was dumfounded reading that coming from you.

In one breath you say it is the individuals own perception of God that matters and then say the Trinity is true, personally I know you believe the trinity to be true.

let me just say VW, mans perception of God if left to his own devices will never be true, that's why we have heresies in the first place, mechanisms of the devil.

Anyhow VW, as I said earlier you do know the difference, but as I say you choose to ignore the fact that they do not serve the God of Scripture and you fully welcome that and that is your belief, that is upto you.

But I must admit, it is really sorrowfull to see christians deceived so easily, because they can not discern the twisting of God's word.

In Christ our Lord and Saviour

Phil

 

[distinctiveministry]

Phil, you're just dumbfounded, aren't you?

 

[distinctiveministry]

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[VW]

VW,

that statement is certainly not true and very far from the truth, I must admit I was dumfounded reading that coming from you.

In one breath you say it is the individuals own perception of God that matters and then say the Trinity is true, personally I know you believe the trinity to be true.

let me just say VW, mans perception of God if left to his own devices will never be true, that's why we have heresies in the first place, mechanisms of the devil.

Anyhow VW, as I said earlier you do know the difference, but as I say you choose to ignore the fact that they do not serve the God of Scripture and you fully welcome that and that is your belief, that is upto you.

But I must admit, it is really sorrowfull to see christians deceived so easily, because they can not discern the twisting of God's word.

In Christ our Lord and Saviour

Phil

Hi Phil,

I think that maybe you are reading more into what I say than I meant.

Again, a few statements, that I ask you to think about if you will.

God is not of the bible. The bible is of God.

I know that this has not made an impact on you, to you they are saying the same thing. But they are not. You see, the bible is a record of what God has said, of His actions, of His dealings with people from the beginning. This record is inspired by God, and so is accurate and complete, as a record. And as a revelation of God's will, of His plan for us through the ages, it is also complete. But the scripture was never intended to replace God, nor even to supliment Him. There are many uses of the scripture that man has learned. But the only one who can use the scripture to its perfect purpose is God, through the Holy Spirit. When we believe that we know truth because of what we read from scripture, we are close to error, because we have placed scripture above God. In other words, God must be this, or do that, because that is what scripture says. This is a common practice in mental thought throughout the church today. It is wrong.

The scriptures testify of Christ Jesus, and therefore they are His servant. He is written of in scripture, even Moses wrote of Him. Jesus was reviled by the Jews because He claimed to be one thing; the Son of God. The Jews had no trouble believing that this was possible, just not as He presented Himself. Not being with sinners and publicans and tax collectors. Even harlots and the sick and lame and obviously those who had committed great sin, because they were afflicted in many ways. Everyone knew that the punishment for sin was affliction. But He worked works among them that no one had ever worked, miracles that redefined miracles. He even healed a man born blind. Even raised people from the dead. Even the devils obeyed Him. If not for these works, they would not have had sin.

But the Jews could not believe in Him. He stood against too much that was who they were, that defined them as a people.

You tell me that the trinity defines God to us, and in fact defines us as christians. I do not agree. Simply, we are defined by God's being in us by His Spirit. Simple as that. Nothing more, and nothing less. If we have not the Spirit of God, we are none of His. We are not defined by the bible. We are defined by Jesus and His life in us.

In His grace and peace,
vic

 

[phil36]

Distinctive i expect that when people get angry with the truth. the sarcasm comes out ! it shows the Spirit that is in you.

Blessings

Phil

 

[phil36]

Hi Phil,

I think that maybe you are reading more into what I say than I meant.

Again, a few statements, that I ask you to think about if you will.

God is not of the bible. The bible is of God.

I know that this has not made an impact on you, to you they are saying the same thing. But they are not. You see, the bible is a record of what God has said, of His actions, of His dealings with people from the beginning. This record is inspired by God, and so is accurate and complete, as a record. And as a revelation of God's will, of His plan for us through the ages, it is also complete. But the scripture was never intended to replace God, nor even to supliment Him. There are many uses of the scripture that man has learned. But the only one who can use the scripture to its perfect purpose is God, through the Holy Spirit. When we believe that we know truth because of what we read from scripture, we are close to error, because we have placed scripture above God. In other words, God must be this, or do that, because that is what scripture says. This is a common practice in mental thought throughout the church today. It is wrong.

The scriptures testify of Christ Jesus, and therefore they are His servant. He is written of in scripture, even Moses wrote of Him. Jesus was reviled by the Jews because He claimed to be one thing; the Son of God. The Jews had no trouble believing that this was possible, just not as He presented Himself. Not being with sinners and publicans and tax collectors. Even harlots and the sick and lame and obviously those who had committed great sin, because they were afflicted in many ways. Everyone knew that the punishment for sin was affliction. But He worked works among them that no one had ever worked, miracles that redefined miracles. He even healed a man born blind. Even raised people from the dear. Even the devils obeyed Him.

But the Jews could not believe in Him. He stood against too much that was who they were, that defined them as a people.

You tell me that the trinity defines God to us, and in fact defines us as christians. I do not agree. Simply, we are defined by God's being in us by His Spirit. Simple as that. Nothing more, and nothing less. If we have not the Spirit of God, we are none of His. We are not defined by the bible. We are defined by Jesus and His life in us.

In His grace and peace,
vic

Hi VW,

Thanks for your post, I know that God is not the bible and that the bible is of God. The simple fact is that the bible is what God has given us, for teaching, rebuke... and growing in righteousness.

The very fact that God Himself took the effort to give us His word, breathed out by the Holy Spirit (who by the way is not the father, that oness teachs) should tell you something.. VW.

The Jews rejected Jesus, because He said 'I am' VW, he was saying he and the father are one, that does not mean that he is the father for that does not make even common sense, but He (one person) and the Father(another person) are one!

To say we are not defined by the trinity is a ridiculus statemnt VW, and I don't think you have thought that out. we are defined by who God is, what His nature is, and what He has done in all of creation. w

So how do we know this VW.. The very thing that you say does not define how we think, by the power of the Holy Spirit (one person) we are guided into scripture, this is were we learn who God is, what He has done icreation, redemptive history and what He will do in the future, this all through Jesus(one person) to the Glory of the Father (Third person) thre distinct person doing thre differing roles yet all in one accord.

so I know God is not the bible, but this is the means by which God gets us to know truth, learn about Him, how we should live etc.

so you see onenes do not serve this God. God defines who we are for we are made in His image, for you to say otherwise is actually disturbing to say the least. we are designed as loving relational beings just as the Trinity are in one relation and love the Father Loves the son, the sone loves the Father, and botht the Father and son love the Holy Sirit, these are only a couple of the truths on How a true understanding of the triune God shapes us..

Anyhow, it does really matter what christian history since the apostles have believed you seem to want ot believe anyone, whos says they believe in Jesus.. even the demons can do that and infact they were the first to rcognise Him for who he was.

Blessings

Phil

 

[distinctiveministry]

Angry? Sarcasm? You made a statement and I turned it into a joke. As far as the Spirit that is in me, well...you say there isn't one at all since I don't believe in God as you do. But since you brought it up, who lives in you, Phil, is it Christ or is it His Spirit?

 

[phil36]

Ok I take it as the joke you mybe meant it to be.

I agree with you, for if you do not believe in the triune God, well? I dont know who you think lives in you.there is always powers behind false Gods and very subtle decievers.. just a point to think about!

Since you know what trinitarians (christians) believ you should not have to anser that question, or is it that you don't know?

Blessings

Phil

 

[distinctiveministry]

I just want to hear it from you is all.

 

[phil36]

lol, The Holy Spirt is in me (that is the third person of the trinity), yet I am in Christ... and I know what you are eager to say now

Blesings

Phil

 

[distinctiveministry]

Which is what?

 

[distinctiveministry]

By the way...I haven't voted on the poll because I don't agree with the doctrine of the Trinity or Sabellius, so to say that my understanding of God was and has been condemned by the church for the past 1800 years isn't really accurate. I am not a modalist, nor an adoptionist. I believe God is one, according to the scriptures, and what I believe has never been condemned by the church as heresy, just you, Phil.

 

[distinctiveministry]

Still waiting for you to tell me what I'm so eager to say, as you put it.

 

[phil36]

Anyhow,

The truth of the matter is, to be a christian you believ in the triune God for it is thr triune God who is your God and from whom you bare the image, relatinional and loving just as thr triune God.

This has always been truth, and was totally defended whe the heresy of 'oneness' first cam about in the 2nd century. Church history has always testifid to this as being heresy, some christians are full of fear to say this because some may call them unloving, it is unloving not to rebuke those decieving souls.

I have no qualms as you all have noticed in calling out false teachings, that doesnt make me special or have any particualr knowledge, but it does show I care enough for the thousands infact couple of million being deceived by this heresy. especially by those who willfully reject the trinity. which is to reject God, and the means by which God operates, and How the atonement was accomplished and is applied.

Blessings

Phil