The Rapture

calibob · Jun 2, 2018

When I got saved this was one of the most popular, most disputed topics among us. I don't believe we shouldn't quibble over fine points of scripture. It divides us. It's prophecy not a science. I think the devil is a trixter and uses it, (the devil used the word to test Jesus too) to try and trick us. I am not a preacher. I will never say it's this way or that way or the way I believe is the only way. I say "Study to show thyself approved by God a worker that dosn't need to be ashamed of rightly divideing the word the word of truth..." and something i learned from alcoholics anonymous is ''when wrong promptly admit it.

Be that as it may, just be ready, that's all. He (the Lord) will come as a thief in the night. Be ready, that's all, folks... calibob

Stunnedbygrace · Jun 2, 2018

calibob said:

They had the same kind of arguments we do over prophecies about where the Messiah would come from. One man said: check the scriptures and see for yourself that He doesn't come from a certain place (can't remember). So there were verses saying He would come from three different places. Can you imagine the arguments about how two of the verses couldn't be talking about Him coming and it was only this place, with another arguing they were wrong and it was only that place. And lo and behold, it happened just as scripture said and He came from three different places! And NONE of them understanding He would come twice!

Well, He causes things to happen over and over again as Ecclesiastes says, so I wouldn't be surprised if He came from three different places again (from Bozrah with robes stained red, along with two others I've found that seem to war with that!) and once again will come twice (once in secret for His own and a second time when every eye will see Him and mourn).

It's just like God to repeat a thing over again!

PlainWord · Jun 2, 2018

Gal 4: 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Thus Christ was to come when the "fullness of time" came. Thus the fullness of time came in the first century when the Law, the temple, the city and the unbelieving Jews died.

Mark 1: 14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

The kingdom is at hand, or near. Not here yet, but close. Turns out there was about 40 years to go to repent before the nations were completely divided into two, the wheat and tares.

Rev 1: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Thus the things in Revelation were to take place soon after the writing of it, for the time in near - not thousands of years away. Now look at the end of Revelation.

Rev 22: 20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

Revelation ends the way it begins talking about a quick, soon return of Christ. The fact is Christ returned in 70 AD and brought the Kingdom to earth. He did not bring the saved alive to heaven. This idea that there is to be no more sin after Christ's return is not Biblical and the opposite is actually taught. The kingdom is not of this earth but can be found on earth in each of us who are saved.

Outside of our kingdom are those still living in sin as we see here.

Rev 22: 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

This is exactly how it has been since the days of Christ. Heaven is open to all who believe in Him and closed to those who don't. For those who do not think sin exists once the kingdom has been established need to go back to the drawing board.

PlainWord · Jun 2, 2018

The Great White Throne happened in Rev 20, yet the above is in Rev 22. Then we see this.

Rev 22: 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

The curse has been lifted. In the Garden, Adam and Eve were kicked out and angels posted to make sure they did not eat of the Tree of Life and live forever. But now, whoever thirsts can come and drink freely and live. Those who hear His voice are saved and enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who don't remain outside of the kingdom and doomed to die twice. Then we have this.

Rev 22: 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Nations in the eternal state? Yes, because the kingdom was established during the days of those kings of the fourth beast kingdom (Dan 7) which was Rome.

Rev 21: 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

This is teaching that nations which are just, and true and Christian will always find the gates of heaven open where nations that are evil, wicked and unbelieving remain outside of the kingdom as heathen nations. This is how it always was for Israel. When she was obedient, she prospered and no country could defeat her. When she disobeyed, her enemies harassed her or worse, left her desolate.

Christian nations are blessed, wealthy, safest and freest as long as they are obedient. Muslim nations (for example) are among the poorest, most dangerous and most oppressive. I'll close with this, the end of Matthew:

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Jesus doesn't just reign in heaven, He also has authority (reigns) over earth.

PlainWord · Jun 2, 2018

Mat 16: 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

AHW,

Did Christ come down from the Mount of Transfiguration with rewards, and angels and ruling in His kingdom? Go ahead, you can answer. I know you want to ignore this passage because it totally destroys your futurist views.

garee · Jun 2, 2018

PlainWord said:

This generation, or new beginning (genesis) is in respect to the generation of Christ, it stands the opposite of the generation of Adam also called the evil generation as the unregenerate.(no faith) The generation of Adam went out from us because they were not of us .When the veil was rent, it marks the last days ending on the last day, the day of the second resurrection and judgment day for the generation of Adam all rolled up as one work in twinkling of the eye .The Amil position works the best .

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.1 john 2

Six times in the book of John God uses the "last day" to indicate the second resurrection and judgment day for the unbeliever.

Ahwatukee · Jun 3, 2018

garee said:

No garee! The "last days" did not end when the veil of the temple was rent in two. What are we, in limbo right now? You know why it is called the last days? It is because during that time God will be pouring out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world and will be bringing to a close that last seven years of the seventy seven year periods that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. After the 7th bowl has been poured out, then Christ will return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom, with Jerusalem as the capital over the entire earth.

The reason that the apostles and first century church referred to their time as being the "last days" was because the Lord's return has always been imminent throughout every generation and so they thought that they were in the last days because they had no specific date of when the Lord would return, only that it was/is always about to happen. Now we are that generation that is truly living in the last days and we have every right to claim it because we are witnessing Daniel's prophecy stating that "knowledge shall be increased," which it definitely has. We have also witnessed Israel go from being a desolate waste-land for 1900 years, to a flourishing Eden, just as God said. In addition, God has brought back the people of Israel from all of the countries from where they were scattered, just as prophesied. Now, Israel has just celebrated her 70th anniversary as a nation, with Jerusalem as her capital. In addition, we have witnessed the evolution of the electronic crediting and debiting system, with people now being implanted under the skin of the hand which will continue to evolve as we draw closer to the revealing of that antichrist, also as prophesied.

Just because those in the 1st century thought that they were in the last days, doesn't mean they were, but they only thought that they were. You have to have all the signs in order to claim that. I would hardly call 2000 years ago, which is 1/3 of the total time that man has been on the earth, as being the last days. We however, can make that claim and that because we can see everything taking place.

garee · Jun 3, 2018

The renting of the veil marked the beginning of the last days ending on the last day. The time of reformation had come. The days Christ poured out his Spirit on all flesh no longer just the Jews.

He sent divorced Israel a sign of mocking lips called tongues because they refused to believe prophecy, hoping their oral traditions of men was a higher authority making the word of God without effect. Their Jewish flesh was no longer needed to be used in parables as ceremonial laws . It was a perilous time for the unbelieving Jew then as it is today .

Acts 2:17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

A time of great tribulation for an outward Jew walking after their own lusts of the flesh hoping their Jewish flesh could profit for something even though the Son of man of His own replied it profits for nothing. It is a time as never before or ever again.

2 Peter 3:3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

2 Timothy 3:1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

The time of Jacobs trouble no outward flesh to identify with .

Today the outward Jew is still hoping the Son of man will come. Some are rebuilding that which was made to no effect at the renting of the veil. Which represented his temporal flesh by which we know him no longer forever more Signalling the time of reformation had come restoring the government to a previous time period before there were Kings in Israel. the Jews no longer used as a outward representative in parables

Christianity the new name God named His born-again people is not a Jewish religion as if God was or could be a man as us.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.2 Corinthians 5:16-17

The renting of the veil revealed the outward Jews who had no faith, identifying them as antichrists. They deny the father and the Son according to their law of the fathers (oral traditions of men) Ignoring a man must be born again

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that "it is the last time".

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world

All heading toward the last day, the day of the Lord. The day of salvation for those who will not be condemned (no condemnation) and those that are already condemned because they have not believed. (the veil is rent) , judgment day the end of the world, the same day the believer will receive their new incorruptible bodies as the goal of
Christian faith, one work all in the twinkling of the eye .

The thousand years in the parable found in Revelation 20 clearly represents a unknow amount of time. He will come as a thief in the night .

The Amil position works the best o need to add another veil.

Five times in the book of John the term "last day" is used to represent the last resurrection as well as Judgment day for the unbeliever .Again one work in the twinkling of the eye.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall "judge him" in the last day.

There is only one last day . The same last day when all men born again men will receive their new incorruptible bodies.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Locutus · Jun 3, 2018

More excerpts from Don K. Preston's book "The Last Days Identified:

There is no question that Daniel 12 predicts the time of the end, because the time of the end is mentioned at least three times in the text (v. 4, 9,13). We need to take quick note of several things.

First, as just noted, the prophecy is about the last days. Please take special note however, that it is not about the “end of time.” There is a huge difference between the “time of the end” and the “end of time.” These are not synonymous terms.

Second, Daniel was not living in the time of the end. He was told to, “seal the book until the time of the end” (v. 4). The book would remain, “sealed until the time of the end” (v. 9).

Third, Daniel’s prophecy is about the end of Israel’s history, not the end of human history. And, this is good news! Notice that the vision is given to Daniel and is, like Daniel 9, concerned with Daniel’s people (v. 1), and that is Israel. Notice that the vision would be fulfilled, “when the power of the holy people is completely shattered” (v. 7). This is critically important. Daniel was told that the time of the end would be when the power of the holy people was completely shattered.

Who were Daniel’s “holy people?” It can’t be the church, because according to Daniel’s other prophecies, the church will never be destroyed (Daniel 2: 44; 7: 13-14). However, here in chapter 12, the power of some holy people was destined to perish completely.

Thus, we have another passage that deals with the time of the end. It is about the last days of Israel, not about the end of time. When was the power of the holy people completely shattered? That is easy for anyone with a knowledge of history. In A.D. 70, when the Romans conquered Israel. Jerusalem and the Temple, the center of Jewish life, was destroyed.

The Temple was the heart and the core of Israel. To destroy the Temple was to destroy the nation. At the same time, the genealogies were destroyed. This meant that the only way to confirm the identity of true priests was now lost forever. In addition, the tablets of the Torah were destroyed. The sacrifices were removed. Jerusalem, “the perfection of beauty” (Psalms 50: 1f) was destroyed, not so much by the Romans as by Israel herself, and of course, ultimately by Jesus.

Daniel 12 is important, because, as we shall see, it is the source for Jesus’ doctrine of the time of the end. Now, if we know that Daniel’s prediction of the time of the end was concerned with the last days of Israel, then since Jesus based other prophecies, the church will never be destroyed (Daniel 2: 44; 7: 13-14).

However, here in chapter 12, the power of some holy people was destined to perish completely. Thus, we have another passage that deals with the time of the end. It is about the last days of Israel, not about the end of time. When was the power of the holy people completely shattered? That is easy for anyone with a knowledge of history. In A.D. 70, when the Romans conquered Israel. Jerusalem and the Temple, the center of Jewish life, was destroyed. The Temple was the heart and the core of Israel. To destroy the Temple was to destroy the nation. At the same time, the genealogies were destroyed.

This meant that the only way to confirm the identity of true priests was now lost forever. In addition, the tablets of the Torah were destroyed. The sacrifices were removed. Jerusalem, “the perfection of beauty” (Psalms 50: 1f) was destroyed, not so much by the Romans as by Israel herself, and of course, ultimately by Jesus. Daniel 12 is important, because, as we shall see, it is the source for Jesus’ doctrine of the time of the end. Now, if we know that Daniel’s prediction of the time of the end was concerned with the last days of Israel, then since Jesus based his doctrine of the end on Daniel, that means that Jesus' doctrine of the time of the end was about the last days of Israel.
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Get the book

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Ahwatukee · Jun 3, 2018

garee said:

Just FYI, the words "last day" is in reference to the entire time period and not a specific day. In the same way that the "day of the Lord" and the "hour of trial" is not referring to a single day or an one hour, but represents the entire time period of God's wrath, the "last day" also infers the entire time period and is not pointing to the day the Christ returns to the earth.

God has not abandoned His people Israel. God will have prepared for her out in the wilderness where she will be cared for during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. According to Paul, just as Gentiles were given over to disobedience and have receive mercy, Israel has also been given over to disobedience so that God can have mercy on them.

"Regarding the gospel, they (Israel) are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Just as you (Gentiles) who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their (Israel's) disobedience, so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.

PlainWord · Jun 4, 2018

Been following some of this debate concerning the "last days." There seem to be two prominent views on here:

1) Last days of Israel (70 AD)
2) Last days of history (future to us)

Which view is correct? This is easy. Let the Bible tell us. The "last days" are first alluded to Jacob in Gen 49.

10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes...

Thus, the establishment of Israel above all the nations will last until Messiah comes. This point is driven home in Deu 28. Israel is to be above all nations, specifically set aside and blessed if they are obedient:

“Now it shall come to pass, if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments which I command you today, that the Lord your God will set you high above all nations of the earth. 2 And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, because you obey the voice of the Lord your God...

He then lays out the curses for disobedience:

15 “But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you...

One of the curses mentioned is this:

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young... 52 “They shall besiege you at all your gates until your high and fortified walls, in which you trust, come down throughout all your land; and they shall besiege you at all your gates throughout all your land which the Lord your God has given you. 53 You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the Lord your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you. 55 so that he will not give any of them the flesh of his children whom he will eat, because he has nothing left in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates. 57 her placenta which comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of everything in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates.

This doesn't just sound a little bit like the Roman siege, it is the Roman siege of 70 AD!!! Rome is the "eagle." Rome was the fourth beast of Daniel. The Jews indeed ate their newborn babies as Josephus records. This is why Jesus said, "woe to those who are pregnant in those days!" Now we see the plagues of the 7 bowls of Rev 16 foretold.

58 “If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues—great and prolonged plagues—and serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed. 62 You shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven in multitude, because you would not obey the voice of the Lord your God.

Lastly, Deu 28 ends with Israel being scattered into all the nations which happened in 70 AD.

64 “Then the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known—wood and stone. 65 And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul.

And this is where the story ends, Israel wiped out by Rome and scattered. Nothing more is told because this was the "end of days" for Israel which the Bible is about. Thus Israel was scattered until 1948 but the end of the scattering is not found. Paul cites back to Deu in Gal 3:

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Then Paul says:

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)

The curse ended with the Law. The Law ended in 70 AD at the "end of days" which was the end of the Mosaic Age. We then entered the Messianic Age, a beautiful and quite different set of rules. Now, this is how the Bible ends.

Rev 22: And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.

The curse of the Law has been lifted. We are under grace and we serve Him. The old heavens and earth passed away and behold, we are in the new "heavens and earth" where righteousness dwells. AMEN!!

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 4, 2018

PlainWord said:

The curse of the law is indeed no more, but the curse of Genesis is still with us and will be until Christ returns. I'm pretty certain that Rev 22 is referring to the latter curse.

Locutus · Jun 4, 2018

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Unfortunately you are missing the context of Rev 22:

(Rev 22:17 KJV) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

People that have received the holy spirit have been taking of the water of life freely since Pentecost - there is only one source of the water of life:

(John 7:38 KJV) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

(John 7:39 KJV) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

When people accepted Christ in the 1st century they died to the law and they were not under the curse, John is speaking of when he saw the end of the law with its blessings and curses at the close of the Mosaic covenant in the destruction of the city and people (rebellious Israel) in 70 AD - he is seeing the end in totality.

The blessing and curses of the Mosaic covenant/age are no longer valid - as Plainword stated we are in the age of Messiah.

Until you get this straight in your "head" your theology will always be in error.

To ignore John's emphatic time statements is where "futurist theologies" err:

(Rev 22:7 KJV) Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

(Rev 22:12 KJV) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

(Rev 22:12 KJV) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

(Rev 22:17 KJV) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

John was expecting Christ's return very soon after he wrote and Christ assured him three times that he would be coming quickly for:

(Rev 22:10 KJV) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 4, 2018

Locutus said:

Revelation 22 is obviously describing the new earth when GOD himself and the new Jerusalem have descended to earth, and when death has been eliminated. That's obviously not the case now. There is yet death and suffering, and Christ and the father are in heaven, not on earth.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 4, 2018

Locutus said:

Humanity is still under this curse. John was obviously talking about the removal of this curse.

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:16-19

abcdef · Jun 4, 2018

PlainWord said:

Gal 4: 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Thus Christ was to come when the "fullness of time" came. Thus the fullness of time came in the first century when the Law, the temple, the city and the unbelieving Jews died.

Mark 1: 14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

The kingdom is at hand, or near. Not here yet, but close. Turns out there was about 40 years to go to repent before the nations were completely divided into two, the wheat and tares.

Rev 1: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Thus the things in Revelation were to take place soon after the writing of it, for the time in near - not thousands of years away. Now look at the end of Revelation.

Rev 22: 20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

Revelation ends the way it begins talking about a quick, soon return of Christ. The fact is Christ returned in 70 AD and brought the Kingdom to earth. He did not bring the saved alive to heaven. This idea that there is to be no more sin after Christ's return is not Biblical and the opposite is actually taught. The kingdom is not of this earth but can be found on earth in each of us who are saved.

Outside of our kingdom are those still living in sin as we see here.

Rev 22: 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

This is exactly how it has been since the days of Christ. Heaven is open to all who believe in Him and closed to those who don't. For those who do not think sin exists once the kingdom has been established need to go back to the drawing board.

Brother PW,

The kingdom came on Pentecost. If the kingdom came in 70 ad., then when is the mill?

I mean, if the kingdom came in 70 ad., we must be in the mill right now, yes/no? 70 ad would be when the mill began?

Then how can there be another resurrection at the end of the mill? You would be showing at least 3 resurrections, contrary to 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24, which shows only 2. #1 Jesus, and #2 those who are Christ's at His coming.

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Locutus · Jun 4, 2018

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Failure to understand the "new heaven and earth" is not speaking of a new physical earth is another place where you are in error - John and Jesus were speaking of the destruction of Israel's "heaven and earth" which was created in the giving of the law as Isaiah states:

Isa 51:16.I have put my words in your mouth as I stretched out the heavens; When I laid the foundations of the earth, I said to Zion: "You are my people, and I have shielded you in the shadow of my hand."

God did not say to Zion "You are my people" when he created the physical heavens and earth.

The "new heaven and earth" have been in existence since the first century.

But as usual discussing theology with such as yourself is futile.

abcdef · Jun 4, 2018

Locutus said:

Brother Locutus,

There is a new covenant heavens and earth (symbolic), and an eternal new heavens and earth, after this life is over (literal). The Bible talks about both.

But in order to make you theory about "everything finished by 70 ad" work, you must apply all prophecies about the eternal new heavens and earth to this old temporal planet.

Death, physical and spiritual, is still around, so death is not destroyed yet.

Ahwatukee · Jun 4, 2018

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Hello HeRose,

We can't tell who you are responding to unless you put click on reply to the post that you are addressing or copy and paste his original post. So regarding your post above, who were you responding to?

Thanks!

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 4, 2018

Locutus said:

IMO that's ridiculous. First, that translation of Isaiah 51:16 is horrible. Every other translation doesn't put the word say in the past tense like yours does. So your interpretation is dependent upon that spurious translation. Proper translation does not allow your theory. Second, did GOD dry every tear in your supposed new heaven and earth as it is said he will do in Revelation? No, of course not.

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