Is faith a reliable way to know truth?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Renate,

related to cooperation, an interesting subject is deception.

In order to gain the benefits of society, I don't actually have to be a good person,
I just have to be perceived as a good person.

I hear you are writing a thesis? If you can get someone else to do some of that work and pass it off as your own, deceive, you can benefit from that.

that would give you more time for exercising in the sunshine, which will increase the probability that you can attract a male with good genetics: tall, handsome, muscular.
 
Jun 4, 2018
151
17
18
Renate,

so, moving on to the brain.

how do you make decisions? Is there any kind of Soul or Spirit involved, Or are the decisions you make solely the result of mechanistic physical processes?
Personally I think it is purely mechanisitic physical processes. There is no evidence that we have a soul or even a free will, apart from "we feel like we have one".
 
Jun 4, 2018
151
17
18
Renate,

related to cooperation, an interesting subject is deception.

In order to gain the benefits of society, I don't actually have to be a good person,
I just have to be perceived as a good person.

I hear you are writing a thesis? If you can get someone else to do some of that work and pass it off as your own, deceive, you can benefit from that.

that would give you more time for exercising in the sunshine, which will increase the probability that you can attract a male with good genetics: tall, handsome, muscular.
Right, but I don't want to deceive, so why would I do that? Also, we as a society have decided it is wrong.

I also already have an amazing boyfriend who is tall, handsome and somewhat muscular :D
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
1,282
57
48
If, for example, a Hindu says "I have faith that Vishnu is my lord and saviour", does that make Vishnu true?
they cant claim faith, that is the lie that the devil has put in man. its the idea that you can have your own faith. truth is faith is birthed in you by God alone, so you could never have faith in anything He doesn't want you to have faith in.

so they can say they have faith, but truth is they believe a lie. only faith in Christ is faith.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,330
29,576
113
Faith in my opinion is belief without evidence. Not everyone believes things without evidence.
I am late to this party, and perhaps this has been addressed already, maybe even multiple times, but I will say none-the-less, that faith is not without evidence :)
 
Jun 4, 2018
151
17
18
Renate,

related to cooperation, an interesting subject is deception.

In order to gain the benefits of society, I don't actually have to be a good person,
I just have to be perceived as a good person.

I hear you are writing a thesis? If you can get someone else to do some of that work and pass it off as your own, deceive, you can benefit from that.

that would give you more time for exercising in the sunshine, which will increase the probability that you can attract a male with good genetics: tall, handsome, muscular.
But deception is indeed an interesting subject, which ties into game theory and psychology. It turns out that deception is sometimes beneficial, but it is cognitively difficult.
 
Jun 4, 2018
151
17
18
God is not his creative handiwork.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The things of God are invisible.

But you can see them plainly in God’s creation.

Yet, atheists claim they are blind and can’t see the things of God.
But the scripture says that God showed the atheists the evidence.
And God deniers are indeed religious. Seeking what they say they don’t think exists.
Do you think atheists are lying about not being able to see God in creation?
And what do you mean by "seeking what they say they don't think exists? Do you mean that they are seeking God? Because most atheists are not seeking God at all.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,330
29,576
113
Do you think atheists are lying about not being able to see God in creation?
And what do you mean by "seeking what they say they don't think exists? Do you mean that they are seeking God? Because most atheists are not seeking God at all.
We would say atheists are blind, and in some cases, willfully so. They suffer from the pride of life.
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
1,282
57
48
But how do you know this aside from the Bible says so? How do you know the Bible is a reliable source, rather than the Bhagavad Gita?
the bible is proven true. other religions works are noticeably flawed. heck the gospels are the most recorded time in human history
 
Jun 4, 2018
151
17
18
We would say atheists are blind, and in some cases, willfully so. They suffer from the pride of life.
I was referring to Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

If "the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen", then according to this verse atheists must be lying about not being able to see it, right?
 
Jun 4, 2018
151
17
18
the bible is proven true. other religions works are noticeably flawed. heck the gospels are the most recorded time in human history
Do you have a source for the claim that the bible is proven true? Because that is a pretty bold claim.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,330
29,576
113
I was referring to Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

If "the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen", then according to this verse atheists must be lying about not being able to see it, right?
My response was, they are blind. Do you know that that means? It seems not. Atheists repress the knowledge of God, due to their pride of life (willful blindness). Many have made an idol of their supposed intelligence.
 
Jun 4, 2018
151
17
18
My response was, they are blind. Do you know that that means? It seems not. Atheists repress the knowledge of God, due to their pride of life. Many have made an idol of their supposed intelligence.
So then they do have an excuse, they are blind.
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
1,282
57
48
Do you have a source for the claim that the bible is proven true? Because that is a pretty bold claim.
Manuscript Evidence for the New Testament
There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament.

These manuscript copies are very ancient and they are available for inspection now.

There are also some 86,000 quotations from the early church fathers and several thousand Lectionaries (church-service books containing Scripture quotations used in the early centuries of Christianity).

Bottom line: the New Testament has an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting its reliability.

The New Testament Versus Other Ancient Books
By comparing the manuscript support for the Bible with manuscript support for other ancient documents and books, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that no other ancient piece of literature can stand up to the Bible. Manuscript support for the Bible is unparalleled!
There are more [New Testament] manuscripts copied with greater accuracy and earlier dating than for any secular classic from antiquity.

Rene Pache adds, "The historical books of antiquity have a documentation infinitely less solid."

Dr. Benjamin Warfield concludes, "If we compare the present state of the text of the New Testament with that of no matter what other ancient work, we must...declare it marvelously exact."​
Norman Geisler makes several key observations for our consideration:
No other book is even a close second to the Bible on either the number or early dating of the copies. The average secular work from antiquity survives on only a handful of manuscripts; the New Testament boasts thousands.

The average gap between the original composition and the earliest copy is over 1,000 years for other books.

The New Testament, however, has a fragment within one generation from its original composition, whole books within about 100 years from the time of the autograph [original manuscript], most of the New Testament in less than 200 years, and the entire New Testament within 250 years from the date of its completion.

The degree of accuracy of the copies is greater for the New Testament than for other books that can be compared. Most books do not survive with enough manuscripts that make comparison possible.​
From this documentary evidence, then, it is clear that the New Testament writings are superior to comparable ancient writings. "The records for the New Testament are vastly more abundant, clearly more ancient, and considerably more accurate in their text."
Support for the New Testament from the Church Fathers
As noted at the beginning of this chapter, in addition to the many thousands of New Testament manuscripts, there are over 86,000 quotations of the New Testament in the early church fathers. There are also New Testament quotations in thousands of early church Lectionaries (worship books).

There are enough quotations from the early church fathers that even if we did not have a single copy of the Bible, scholars could still reconstruct all but 11 verses of the entire New Testament from material written within 150 to 200 years from the time of Christ.
Manuscript Evidence for the Old Testament
The Dead Sea Scrolls prove the accuracy of the transmission of the Bible.
In fact, in these scrolls discovered at Qumran in 1947, we have Old Testament manuscripts that date about a thousand years earlier (150 B.C.) than the other Old Testament manuscripts then in our possession (which dated to A.D. 900).

The significant thing is that when one compares the two sets of manuscripts, it is clear that they are essentially the same, with very few changes.

The fact that manuscripts separated by a thousand years are essentially the same indicates the incredible accuracy of the Old Testament's manuscript transmission.​
A full copy of the Book of Isaiah was discovered at Qumran.
Even though the two copies of Isaiah discovered in Qumran Cave 1 near the Dead Sea in 1947 were a thousand years earlier than the oldest dated manuscript previously known (A.D. 980), they proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text.

The 5 percent of variation consisted chiefly of obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling."​
From manuscript discoveries like the Dead Sea Scrolls, Christians have undeniable evidence that today's Old Testament Scripture, for all practical purposes, is exactly the same as it was when originally inspired by God and recorded in the Bible.

Combine this with the massive amount of manuscript evidence we have for the New Testament, and it is clear that the Christian Bible is a trustworthy and reliable book.

The Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the copyists of biblical manuscripts took great care in going about their work.
These copyists knew they were duplicating God's Word, so they went to incredible lengths to prevent error from creeping into their work.

The scribes carefully counted every line, word, syllable, and letter to ensure accuracy.​
God's Preservation of the Bible
The Westminster Confession declares: "The Old Testament in Hebrew and the New Testament in Greek, being immediately inspired by God and, by His singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical; so in all controversies of religion, the Church is finally to appeal unto them."

The Westminster Confession makes a very important point here.
The fact is, the God who had the power and sovereign control to inspire the Scriptures in the first place is surely going to continue to exercise His power and sovereign control in the preservation of Scripture.​
Actually, God's preservational work is illustrated in the text of the Bible.
By examining how Christ viewed the Old Testament, we see that He had full confidence that the Scriptures He used had been faithfully preserved through the centuries.

Because Christ raised no doubts about the adequacy of the Scripture as His contemporaries knew them, we can safely assume that the first-century text of the Old Testament was a wholly adequate representation of the divine word originally given.

Jesus regarded the extant copies of His day as so approximate to the originals in their message that He appealed to those copies as authoritative.

The respect that Jesus and His apostles held for the extant Old Testament text is, at base, an expression of the confidence in God's providential preservation of the copies and translations as substantially identical with the inspired originals.​
Hence, the Bible itself indicates that copies can faithfully reflect the original text and therefore function authoritatively.​
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,067
4,349
113
If, for example, a Hindu says "I have faith that Vishnu is my lord and saviour", does that make Vishnu true?
Hindu has millon gods , they just needed one to tell the truth.

Jesus said in John Gospel 8:32 " you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free ". if you an't free you an't got truth.
Jesus also said In JOhn 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


and in John 18:37 "For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth.


Jesus came to testfy of the truth. He did or He is a liar . Jesus did not lie He is who who said he is and because HE has told the truth we can have faith in all HE has said even if it has not happen yet.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,330
29,576
113
So then they do have an excuse, they are blind.
Their excuse is, I do not want to acknowledge God, because my pride is too great, and will not allow me to. How is that a valid excuse?

Surely you have read, that God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble? Atheists refuse to humble themselves.
 
Jun 4, 2018
151
17
18
Manuscript Evidence for the New Testament
There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament.​
These manuscript copies are very ancient and they are available for inspection now.​
There are also some 86,000 quotations from the early church fathers and several thousand Lectionaries (church-service books containing Scripture quotations used in the early centuries of Christianity).​
Bottom line: the New Testament has an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting its reliability.​
The New Testament Versus Other Ancient Books
By comparing the manuscript support for the Bible with manuscript support for other ancient documents and books, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that no other ancient piece of literature can stand up to the Bible. Manuscript support for the Bible is unparalleled!​
There are more [New Testament] manuscripts copied with greater accuracy and earlier dating than for any secular classic from antiquity.​
The amount of copies says nothing about the truth of the text. You provided only evidence that the copies are consistent with each other, not that they are true.

Compare the gospels to Julius Ceasar's Crossing of the Rubicon:

First of all, we have Caesar's own word on the subject. Indeed, The Civil War has been a Latin classic for two thousand years, written by Caesar himself and by one of his generals and closest of friends. In contrast, we do not have anything written by Jesus, and we do not know for certain the name of any author of any of the accounts of his earthly resurrection.

Second, we have many of Caesar's enemies, including Cicero, a contemporary of the event, reporting the crossing of the Rubicon, whereas we have no hostile or even neutral records of the resurrection until over a hundred years after the event, which is fifty years after the Christians' own claims had been widely spread around.

Third, we have a number of inscriptions and coins produced soon after the Republican Civil War related to the Rubicon crossing, including mentions of battles and conscriptions and judgments, which provide evidence for Caesar's march. On the other hand, we have absolutely no physical evidence of any kind in the case of the resurrection.

Fourth, we have the story of the "Rubicon Crossing" in almost every historian of the period, including the most prominent scholars of the age: Suetonius, Appian, Cassius Dio, Plutarch. Moreover, these scholars have a measure of proven reliability, since a great many of their reports on other matters have been confirmed in material evidence and in other sources. In addition, they often quote and name many different sources, showing a wide reading of the witnesses and documents, and they show a desire to critically examine claims for which there is any dispute. If that wasn't enough, all of them cite or quote sources written by witnesses, hostile and friendly, of the Rubicon crossing and its repercussions.

Compare this with the resurrection: we have not even a single established historian mentioning the event until the 3rd and 4th centuries, and then only by Christian historians. And of those few others who do mention it within a century of the event, none of them show any wide reading, never cite any other sources, show no sign of a skilled or critical examination of conflicting claims, have no other literature or scholarship to their credit that we can test for their skill and accuracy, are completely unknown, and have an overtly declared bias towards persuasion and conversion.

Fifth, the history of Rome could not have proceeded as it did had Caesar not physically moved an army into Italy. Even if Caesar could have somehow cultivated the mere belief that he had done this, he could not have captured Rome or conscripted Italian men against Pompey's forces in Greece. On the other hand, all that is needed to explain the rise of Christianity is a belief--a belief that the resurrection happened. There is nothing that an actual resurrection would have caused that could not have been caused by a mere belief in that resurrection. Thus, an actual resurrection is not necessary to explain all subsequent history, unlike Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon.

It should be clear that we have many reasons to believe that Caesar crossed the Rubicon, all of which are lacking in the case of the resurrection. In fact, when we compare all five points, we see that in four of the five proofs of an event's historicity, the resurrection has no evidence at all, and in the one proof that it does have, it has not the best, but the very worst kind of evidence--a handful of biased, uncritical, unscholarly, unknown, second-hand witnesses. Indeed, you really have to look hard to find another event that is in a worse condition than this as far as evidence goes. So Geivett is guilty of a rather extreme exaggeration. This is not a historically well-attested event, and it does not meet the highest standards of evidence.

But reasons to be skeptical do not stop there. We must consider the setting--the place and time in which these stories spread. This was an age of fables and wonder. Magic and miracles and ghosts were everywhere, and almost never doubted. I'll give one example that illustrates this: we have several accounts of what the common people thought about lunar eclipses. They apparently had no doubt that this horrible event was the result of witches calling the moon down with diabolical spells. So when an eclipse occurred, everyone would frantically start banging pots and blowing brass horns furiously, to confuse the witches' spells. So tremendous was this din that many better-educated authors complain of how the racket filled entire cities and countrysides. This was a superstitious people.

Only a small class of elite well-educated men adopted more skeptical points of view, and because they belonged to the upper class, both them and their arrogant skepticism were scorned by the common people, rather than respected. Plutarch laments how doctors were willing to attend to the sick among the poor for little or no fee, but they were usually sent away, in preference for the local wizard. By modern standards, almost no one had any sort of education at all, and there were no mass media disseminating scientific facts in any form. By the estimates of William Harris, author of Ancient Literacy [1989], only 20% of the population could read anything at all, fewer than 10% could read well, and far fewer still had any access to books. He found that in comparative terms, even a single page of blank papyrus cost the equivalent of thirty dollars--ink, and the labor to hand copy every word, cost many times more. We find that books could run to the tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars each. Consequently, only the rich had books, and only elite scholars had access to libraries, of which there were few. The result was that the masses had no understanding of science or critical thought. They were neither equipped nor skilled, nor even interested, in challenging an inspiring story, especially a story like that of the Gospels: utopian, wonderful, critical of upper class society--even more a story that, if believed, secured eternal life. Who wouldn't have bought a ticket to that lottery? Opposition arose mainly from prior commitments to other dogmas, not reason or evidence.

The differences between society then and now cannot be stressed enough. There didn't exist such things as coroners, reporters, cameras, newspapers, forensic science, or even police detectives. All the technology, all the people we have pursuing the truth of various claims now, did not exist then. In those days, few would even be able to check the details of a story if they wanted to--and few wanted to. Instead, people based their judgment on the display of sincerity by the storyteller, by his ability to impress them with a show or simply to persuade and "sell" his story, and by the potential rewards his story had to offer. At the same time, doubters didn't care to waste the time or money debunking yet another crazy cult, of which there were hundreds then. And so it should not surprise us that we have no writings by anyone hostile to Christianity until a century after it began--not even slanders or lies. Clearly, no doubter cared to check or even challenge the story in print until it was too late to investigate the facts.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.