The Divine Equation

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Latour

Latour

Active member
#41
Jun 11, 2018
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#41
Some will say that this teaching sounds like an Eastern religion. (as if only westerners know anything at all.)

But hear this statement...

You reap what you sow.

Is that true of Christians? Doesn't that sound like Karma?
How does that work with grace? Are we no longer responsible for our own actions?

Grace is a free gift....yet we reap what we have ourselves sown. Conundrum.

Most people will ignore the equation in favour of a favourite verse and so miss the truth.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#42
Jul 18, 2017
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#42
Latour said:
Well, the truth is like a wheel within wheel. It seems to be going in more than one direction at a time. It can only be understood by us humans as an equation with 2 polarities.
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When we come to Scripture we should set aside philosophical ideas. Your suggestion about two polarities does not really reflect Scripture. Please note that "one" is repeated seven times in this passages.

EPHESIANS 4:4-6
There is one body,
and one Spirit,
even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord,
one faith,
one baptism,
One God and Father of all,
who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#43
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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#43
Latour said:
Again... (as is common without this understanding) you are staying on the same side of the equation and negating half the truth. (not knowingly of course) Doers of the law are indeed justified. The fact is that grace enables us to do just that. (Fulfill the law) Faith without works is dead....or...only half the truth. The works prove the equation. :)
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You miss Paul's point entirely. No one is ever justified by the law (except Christ). And grace does not enable us to keep the law, but to walk by the spirit, which fulfills all righteousness demanded by the law (Romans 8:4)
 
Latour

Latour

Active member
#44
Jun 11, 2018
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#44
DevotiontoBible said:
Let us stay on your Romans claim first You are comparing apples to oranges since Paul said everyone has broken the law but he never said anyone has kept the law to be justified by it. There is no polar opposite by Paul in those two verses.
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The point is not the performance per se...but the truth. When you judge the truth based on what men do with it...you have the the cart pulling the horse. (or the tail wagging the dog as it were). Paul is not offering examples by giving names...just stating the truth. Those who DO the law are justified by it. That's it. Those who don't do the law are condemned by it. That is the nature of law.

The balance is that we will all be judged by the law...those who claim to have grace yet continued to sin will be judged as sinners under the law. Those who have overcome sin by grace will be justified by.....the law.

We will all be judged by our works. THAT is the truth. If we are found to be sinners then we will be treated as sinners under the law. Grace is the power of God to help us fulfill the law. ...not to escape the truth of the law.

The law of gravity is real. But so is the law of flight. So as long as I am IN an airplane that follows the laws of flight...I can overcome the law of gravity.

So then the law of life IN Christ causes me to fly over the law of sin and death.

But as soon as I am no longer under the power of flight...I fall to the ground. Likewise as soon as I am no longer walking in the power of Christ then I am susceptible to various temptations.....
 
Latour

Latour

Active member
#45
Jun 11, 2018
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#45
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
You miss Paul's point entirely. No one is ever justified by the law (except Christ). And grace does not enable us to keep the law, but to walk by the spirit, which fulfills all righteousness demanded by the law (Romans 8:4)
Click to expand...

exactly. But you are contradicting yourself....when you say that keeping the requirements of the law is not the same as keeping the law. If I stay at 100kph on the highway I am both keeping the law AND fulfilling the law. Same thing! :)
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#46
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
692
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#46
Latour said:
Some will say that this teaching sounds like an Eastern religion. (as if only westerners know anything at all.)

But hear this statement...

You reap what you sow.

Is that true of Christians? Doesn't that sound like Karma?
How does that work with grace? Are we no longer responsible for our own actions?

Grace is a free gift....yet we reap what we have ourselves sown. Conundrum.

Most people will ignore the equation in favour of a favourite verse and so miss the truth.
Click to expand...
Those who sow to the law will reap corruption. Those who sow to the spirit will reap incorruption.
 
Latour

Latour

Active member
#47
Jun 11, 2018
437
255
43
#47
Nehemiah6 said:
When we come to Scripture we should set aside philosophical ideas. Your suggestion about two polarities does not really reflect Scripture. Please note that "one" is repeated seven times in this passages.

EPHESIANS 4:4-6
There is one body,
and one Spirit,
even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord,
one faith,
one baptism,
One God and Father of all,
who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Click to expand...
But there are 2 main laws, 2 tablets of the commandments, 2 resurrections, etc

And then there are 3...3 sons of Noah, 3 persons in God, etc...

:)
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#48
Sep 4, 2012
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#48
Latour said:
exactly. But you are contradicting yourself....when you say that keeping the requirements of the law is not the same as keeping the law. If I stay at 100kph on the highway I am both keeping the law AND fulfilling the law. Same thing! :)
Click to expand...
Not contradicting myself at all. One can do the righteousness required by the law apart from the letter. Your focus is on earthly things.
 
Latour

Latour

Active member
#50
Jun 11, 2018
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#50
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Not contradicting myself at all. One can do the righteousness required by the law apart from the letter. Your focus is on earthly things.
Click to expand...

Who said anything about letter?? That is something you are adding in yourself. read what I'm saying...not what you are thinking.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#51
Sep 4, 2012
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#51
Latour said:
Who said anything about letter?? That is something you are adding in yourself. read what I'm saying...not what you are thinking.
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You mentioned the letter (speed limit). The law is the letter. One can do righteousness apart from the letter.

The purpose for the speed limit law is to facilitate safe driving. If a person inwardly knows what constitutes safe driving and by nature stays below 100 kph, then he is fulfilling the law without paying attention to it.
 
Latour

Latour

Active member
#52
Jun 11, 2018
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255
43
#52
The divine equation is about 2 levels or 2 distinct games...like checquers and chess. But the goal is the same...to get to the other side of the board. Or in reality to be reconciled to God and walk in union with Him.

The law could not do this as it is weak through our lack of power. So God empowers us to win a higher game...that also fulfills the old game. What checquers couldn't do....the powerful chess pieces can. :)

So then as I walk in the power of the Spirit I overcome those things that defeated me previously.
God has upped the ante so to speak. But the goal remains the same.

The gospel brings us to a higher level...and a greater judgment.
 
tanakh

tanakh

Senior Member
#53
Dec 1, 2015
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#53
Latour said:
My first thread in the chats....(besides intro of course ;) )

Greetings to all my precious brothers and sisters in Christ.
The subject I would like to bring some attention to is one that involves the makeup of truth. It is the easiest thing in the world to get the bible wrong and specifically to mis-understand Paul (even Peter attests to that fact). Why is that?

Well, the truth is like a wheel within wheel. It seems to be going in more than one direction at a time. It can only be understood by us humans as an equation with 2 polarities...like a magnet has (north and south) or the positive and negative poles of a battery. Even our planet (dear old Earth) has a magnetic polarity that stops us from burning up from solar flares. So likewise if we want to stay away from the fires of righteous judgment that burn up our own works (and reveal the lack of truth in us) we will need to provide balance and polarity to our understanding.

Every seeming nice sounding verse has another verse that sounds the opposite. Everything in the bible has both a "good" side and a "bad" side, but all this is beneficial for us to grow into the full knowledge of Christ. It is only as we take on ALL the verses....the blessings AND the cursings....and truly allow ourselves to be inspected and purged by the Holy Spirit will we be able to grow into the truth and the likeness of Christ. As the disciples asked when Jesus said that one of them would betray Him..."Lord, is it I?"
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The Bible also has truth at different levels of meaning, and ways of expressing the meaning of a verse or passage. One big mistake is believing that one has the complete truth of a reading and completely discounting truth discovered by others. We are all on a journey of discovery.
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#54
Nov 12, 2015
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#54
Post #37 is quite confusing because I appear to be making a statement when I intended to ask a question. Sorry guys.
 
J

Joseppi

Senior Member
#55
Jan 4, 2018
887
7
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#55
Latour said:
Some will say that this teaching sounds like an Eastern religion. (as if only westerners know anything at all.)

But hear this statement...

You reap what you sow.

Is that true of Christians?
Click to expand...
No.

Doesn't that sound like Karma?
Click to expand...
Not at all.
The doctrine of karma is a philosophical notion that justice occurs as a balancing force in nature.

But, scripture teaches that nature is corrupt because of sin and must be
destroyed by fire. Leading to a new heaven and a new earth wherein no polar opposite force to love exists.

“Reaping what you sow” is simply expressing that the law of God “kind begets kind” is true.
Obviously no magic karma force is at work to cause what a person plants in the earth to bear fruit.
And one can bear evil fruit and escape judgment till the resurrection.
But, you can’t bring forth
evil fruit from a good tree; nor good fruit from and evil tree.


Karma suggests that the creation of God justifies itself.
But, scripture teaches the truth that God alone estsblishes justice, and has reserved final, and eternal judgment until after resurrection.

Notice that a man can reap what he sows on earth, but nevertheless, escape eternal damnation.
The thief on his cross proves that.

There is no such thing as salvation by grace without faith.
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#56
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#56
I've read more and I do understand what you're saying, Latour.
You have not said anything that isn't what Jesus taught us. And Paul.

It's just that...the only way to walk in the Spirit and thereby fulfill the law is through prayer and dependence. Hard work will not get you there. And many might want you to make that clear because they are so accustomed to teaching dependence on God rather than self-effort/your own working (since they run across so many who think they can get their own selves there.) The error of the foolish Galatians snags a lot of us. So their worry that this be understood is valid.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#57
#57
Latour said:
Some will say that this teaching sounds like an Eastern religion. (as if only westerners know anything at all.)

But hear this statement...

You reap what you sow.

Is that true of Christians? Doesn't that sound like Karma?
How does that work with grace? Are we no longer responsible for our own actions?

Grace is a free gift....yet we reap what we have ourselves sown. Conundrum.

Most people will ignore the equation in favour of a favourite verse and so miss the truth.
Click to expand...
its not a conundrum actually

Grace saves (Assures eternal life with God in eternity)

We reap what we sow here on earth (we are blessed or cursed by our actions)

But sowing has nothing to do with salvation.

Karma says what we do in this life times will determine what our next lifetime will be like (either a low or high State of being)

Grace says our next lifetime will be perfection with God,,

Karma is NOTHINK like grace, nor are they even remotely alike.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#58
#58
Stunnedbygrace said:
I've read more and I do understand what you're saying, Latour.
You have not said anything that isn't what Jesus taught us. And Paul.

It's just that...the only way to walk in the Spirit and thereby fulfill the law is through prayer and dependence. Hard work will not get you there. And many might want you to make that clear because they are so accustomed to teaching dependence on God rather than self-effort/your own working (since they run across so many who think they can get their own selves there.) The error of the foolish Galatians snags a lot of us. So their worry that this be understood is valid.
Click to expand...
I read everything he has said, and I must admit, I may have to hear more. but his thoughts are worrysome, Saying grace is like Karma? Thats dangerous, they are nothing alike
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#59
Nov 12, 2015
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#59
Well, "you reap what you sow" does sound a bit like Karma's statement of what goes around comes around. What you do to others will be done to you, if you don't forgive you won't be forgiven.

I had no problem with him saying it sounds vaguely like the concept of karma. Because it does!
 
Deade

Deade

Called of God
#60
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#60
Stunnedbygrace said:
Well, "you reap what you sow" does sound a bit like Karma's statement of what goes around comes around. What you do to others will be done to you, if you don't forgive you won't be forgiven.

I had no problem with him saying it sounds vaguely like the concept of karma. Because it does!
Click to expand...
Well stunned, let us not forget what scripture says about this:

Gal. 6:7 "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

 
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