How To Understand Romans Chapter 9

[posthuman]

You just can't help yourself from running away from Romans 9.

pardon me but Romans 9 quotes extensively from Genesis, Exodus, Isaiah, Hosea and Malachi. looking at Romans 9 is therefore looking also at these.
can we get Romans 9 right if we get any of those wrong?

what is God choosing concerning Abraham

He's choosing a vessel of His own creation to carrying out His own will in:

I will make you a great nation,​

And I will bless you,​

And make your name great;​

And so you shall be a blessing;​

And I will bless those who bless you,​

And the one who curses you I will curse.​

And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.​

(Genesis 12:2-3)​

could Abraham have thwarted this? prevented it?
was Abraham choice #1 for God?
how many other people did God make this promise to first, who by their own will rejected it?
how many other people are on God's 'possible' list to bless all the earth through?
who does He approach next if Abraham decides to say no?
was it a general promise to everyone in Ur and only Abraham rose up and went?

does it say somewhere, 'Abraham created himself for blessing' ?

 

[DevotiontoBible]

wait, man is the potter?

what does v. 21 say?

See how you took my comment out of context, you do the same with the Bible. It isn't possible to have a rational discussion with someone acting so irrational like you.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

pardon me but Romans 9 quotes extensively from Genesis, Exodus, Isaiah, Hosea and Malachi. looking at Romans 9 is therefore looking also at these.
can we get Romans 9 right if we get any of those wrong?



He's choosing a vessel of His own creation to carrying out His own will in:

I will make you a great nation,​

And I will bless you,​

And make your name great;​

And so you shall be a blessing;​

And I will bless those who bless you,​

And the one who curses you I will curse.​

And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.​

(Genesis 12:2-3)​

could Abraham have thwarted this? prevented it?
was Abraham choice #1 for God?
how many other people did God make this promise to first, who by their own will rejected it?
how many other people are on God's 'possible' list to bless all the earth through?
who does He approach next if Abraham decides to say no?
was it a general promise to everyone in Ur and only Abraham rose up and went?

does it say somewhere, 'Abraham created himself for blessing' ?

See, you can't read what is in Ro 9. You are doing it again. You are ignoring what Ro 9 has to say about Abraham and then making up all kinds of other things about him. Ro 9 is saying that God chose the supernatural child not the natural first born of Abraham for the line. Please let us analyze what Ro 9 is actually saying. Your imagination is irrelevant here.

 

[posthuman]

See, you can't read what is in Ro 9. You are doing it again. You are ignoring what Ro 9 has to say about Abraham and then making up all kinds of other things about him. Ro 9 is saying that God chose the supernatural child not the natural first born of Abraham for the line. Please let us analyze what Ro 9 is actually saying. Your imagination is irrelevant here.

Romans 9 quotes Genesis. I'm not making things up; I'm quoting Genesis. Paul does too. Have you sent Paul a pm to complain?

How is it Jacob is chosen over Esau before they were even born? That's both in Genesis and in Romans 9.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Romans 9 quotes Genesis. I'm not making things up; I'm quoting Genesis. Paul does too. Have you sent Paul a pm to complain?

How is it Jacob is chosen over Esau before they were even born? That's both in Genesis and in Romans 9.

Go back to my OP to answer your own question. It has to do with the younger (new testament faith in Christ) being chosen by God over the first born older (old testatestament keeping the law).

 

[posthuman]

God chose the supernatural child not the natural first born of Abraham for the line.

"supernatural"?

So you're saying the child through whom the inheritance is found is from God, not from man, right?

 

[DevotiontoBible]

"supernatural"?

So you're saying the child through whom the inheritance is found is from God, not from man, right?

I'm saying to interpret it according to how I explained in the OP. You just don't want to interpret verses in Ro 9 in Ro 9 do you?

 

[posthuman]

I'm saying to interpret it according to how I explained in the OP. You just don't want to interpret verses in Ro 9 in Ro 9 do you?

In the OP you suggest skipping the whole chapter and basing our understanding only on the first 2 and last 2 verses.

I don't think that's the best way to approach this, and I think doing that is more like not wishing to discuss Romans 9 than following all the references in it, as I'm trying to do.

Regarding the last verse, have you considered this:

Isaiah 28:11-13 For by people of strange lips and with a foreign tongue the LORD will speak to this people, to whom he has said, "This is rest; give rest to the weary; and this is repose"; yet they would not hear. And the word of the LORD will be to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little, that they may go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.


Why does the Bible say it will be line upon line, and to whom will it be this way, and by whose will?

 

[DevotiontoBible]

In the OP you suggest skipping the whole chapter and basing our understanding only on the first 2 and last 2 verses.

I don't think that's the best way to approach this, and I think doing that is more like not wishing to discuss Romans 9 than following all the references in it, as I'm trying to do.

Regarding the last verse, have you considered this:

Isaiah 28:11-13 For by people of strange lips and with a foreign tongue the LORD will speak to this people, to whom he has said, "This is rest; give rest to the weary; and this is repose"; yet they would not hear. And the word of the LORD will be to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little, that they may go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.


Why does the Bible say it will be line upon line, and to whom will it be this way, and by whose will?

I didn't say skip the whole chapter. See, there you go taking thinks out of context again just like you do with the Bible. I said read the whole chapter in light of and make it relate to the beginning and end. In other words...read it all in context of the whole chapter.

 

[Nehemiah6]

see post #32, re: Romans 9:19

why does this verse exist?

As I already indicated verses 14-24 confirm that God is sovereign in His decisions regarding on whom He will have mercy and on whom He won't.

That does not mean He hardens hearts arbitrarily or chooses some for damnation as He pleases. There are many Scriptures (including God's dealings with Pharaoh) which show that before God hardens a wicked person's heart, He gives them many opportunities to repent.

Scripture also confirms that God desires the salvation of all humanity, and that Christ died for the sins of the whole world. This in itself proves that God has not decreed some for salvation ad others for damnation.

 

[ComeLordJesus]

A fictional person. Paul is begging the question to his argument. But the fact is it doesn't say God makes vessels of wrath and makes vessels of mercy. Man makes himself for destruction.

I don't believe a fictional person is being referred to. Go back to 9:3,4. Paul's attention is directed to Israel.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

I don't believe a fictional person is being referred to. Go back to 9:3,4. Paul's attention is directed to Israel.

But nobody actually asked that question. My point is that Paul is asking the question himself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the understanding is found in one small saying.

Has God made a mistake? (has the word of God taken no effect) in verse 6.

how we interpret the 1st 6 verses is how we will interpret the whole book.

If we start at vs 6, we will usually come to the fatalistic view (double predestination)

if we start at vs 1 and take history into account, we will take the "Israel" interpretation of chapters 9 - 11 (did God make a mistake choosing Israel)

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Romans 9 quotes Genesis. I'm not making things up; I'm quoting Genesis. Paul does too. Have you sent Paul a pm to complain?

How is it Jacob is chosen over Esau before they were even born? That's both in Genesis and in Romans 9.

well, the Psalms indicates God knows us in the womb..I am sure you know that verse....so I will venture that Esau was the little stinker there too before he became the big stinker

although really I kind of think Jacob was a stinker too

I believe the Bible indicates that God knows who will do what because He is not limited by a linear concept of time as are we

therefore, He can say we are chosen before the foundation of the world and also whosoever will at the same time

 

[7seasrekeyed]

if you can't conceive that God is outside of our physical limitations you are not ever going to understand how 2 apparently opposite statements can be both be true

try to understand the nature of God from what He has revealed. really understand that we are more than a little limited, saved included

the Bible says God predestines and also says 'whosoever' will and the ONLY way to understand that, is to try and grasp God's POV instead of debating it ad infinitum

that's how I see it anyway

 

[ComeLordJesus]

see post #32, re: Romans 9:19

why does this verse exist?

I think it exists because the Jews were taking a fatalistic approach to their situation. It's like they believe we're screwed forever and ever and that's not the case because they could have a change of heart and reverse their situation.

 

[posthuman]

I didn't say skip the whole chapter. See, there you go taking thinks out of context again just like you do with the Bible. I said read the whole chapter in light of and make it relate to the beginning and end. In other words...read it all in context of the whole chapter.

Sorry, thought we were being hyperbolic, what with you saying I didn't want to talk about Romans 9 and was just making things up from imagination, when I am actually in a Romans 9 thread quoting from the Bible things quoted in Romans 9.

 

[posthuman]

I think it exists because the Jews were taking a fatalistic approach to their situation. It's like they believe we're screwed forever and ever and that's not the case because they could have a change of heart and reverse their situation.

Is Paul's reply "stop being so fatalistic" ?

 

[ComeLordJesus]

Is Paul's reply "stop being so fatalistic" ?

In 10:3,4 it is

 

[posthuman]

I think it exists because the Jews were taking a fatalistic approach to their situation. It's like they believe we're screwed forever and ever and that's not the case because they could have a change of heart and reverse their situation.

Is Paul's reply "stop being so fatalistic" ?

In 10:3,4 it is

yes, i suppose it is
depending on an altar & a temple that does not exist is very disheartening. but there is no temple in the city because the Lamb is its temple

.. however Romans 10:3-4 is the answer to the hearts desire that they be saved ((10:1-2, re: 'eternal life is to know Him' John 17:3)), not the answer to "how can He judge us, since no one can resist His will?" ((9:19))
the answer to that is, "who do you think you are to ask such a question?" ((vis-à-vis Job 38-41))

although.. in part the answer is a righteousness which is not of ourselves, but of Him, by faith in His mercy, apart from works. which is God enfleshed, Jesus of Nazareth, 10:3-4, His Salvation ♥