Angels and Hebrews

[whatev]

I'm reading/studying Hebrews. It starts with angels. According to Matthew Henry, angels were a big part of the Hebrew/Israelite belief system, but I was never born into the system, nor born-again into it. As far as I see it, angels are God's messengers and servants. The angels themselves have done what we can't not do--not-sin--but although they come at times for the Lord's purposes they don't seem that big a deal. And because of that, I never bothered studying angels. Nor do I plan on studying them.

All that to ask, how did they become such a big thing to Israel? Why did the writer of Hebrews start with angels, to show Jesus was higher than they are? Yes, I understand Jesus is higher than they are, but what were the Jewish people seeing that made that such a big deal? What was their belief system before Hebrews became a letter to the Hebrews?

Anyone know?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I'm reading/studying Hebrews. It starts with angels. According to Matthew Henry, angels were a big part of the Hebrew/Israelite belief system, but I was never born into the system, nor born-again into it. As far as I see it, angels are God's messengers and servants. The angels themselves have done what we can't not do--not-sin--but although they come at times for the Lord's purposes they don't seem that big a deal. And because of that, I never bothered studying angels. Nor do I plan on studying them.

All that to ask, how did they become such a big thing to Israel? Why did the writer of Hebrews start with angels, to show Jesus was higher than they are? Yes, I understand Jesus is higher than they are, but what were the Jewish people seeing that made that such a big deal? What was their belief system before Hebrews became a letter to the Hebrews?

Anyone know?

they actually are a big deal

they are mentionned throughout scripture and in fact the devil was at one time an angel himself

I am surprised you would think they are not a big deal?

you will definitely get some biblical responses here regarding your op on angels but it would also be easy for you to search out the subject for yourself

 

[7seasrekeyed]

here are some verses about angels...you will have to look at more than Hebrews to begin to get an idea about them...but included are a couple of verses from Hebrews. Angels are throughout the entire Bible and we are told they actually interact with us and we may even be in the presence of them without knowing it as Hebrews 13 states

Psalm 91:11-12
“For He will command His angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways. On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.”

Exodus 23:20
“See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.”

Psalm 103:19-22
“The LORD has established His throne in heaven, and His kingdom rules over all. Praise the LORD, you His angels, you mighty ones who do His bidding, who obey His word. Praise the LORD, all His heavenly hosts, you His servants who do His will. Praise the LORD, all His works. Everywhere in His dominion. Praise the LORD, my soul


Matthew 18:10
“Beware that you don’t look down on any of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels are always in the presence of my Heavenly Father.”

Hebrews 1:14
“Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?”


Hebrews 13:2
“Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.

 

[whatev]

Okay, we're not catching on to each other here. Let me try again.

David is no big deal in the Bible either, the way I think. And, obviously, if David was completely no big deal in the Bible, there would be much less about David in the Bible. He was a big deal, but not even close to have big a deal God is.

I'm not saying angels or David mean nothing. If they meant nothing they wouldn't be in the Bible at all. But the Jews of the first century never made David as big a deal as they did angels, and obviously David is still a big deal to them, or they wouldn't have his star. Mr. Henry, (or was he a doctor or a pastor, or whatev? I don't know. Never thought to find out who he was either), did say they knew enough about angels to get the beginning of Hebrews.

I do know angels came to many in the OT, and even a few in the NT, so it isn't like they weren't part of the story, but that's all they were. Part of the story. Servants. Messengers. Not the ones being served nor the Message.

Somehow people have created this whole study of angels -- serafins vs. archs vs. guardian vs. other kinds of angels. And they seem to think they know a lot about them, but it doesn't come from the Bible. It's a whole field in itself. And I'm trying to figure out how they became such a big deal.

To me, it seems like doing a study on ruddy men in the Bible. It has them too, but I've never heard of anyone taking so far as to study what they had in common.

And yet, somehow the first century Hebrews made a very big deal on angels. Why? And how?

Did that make any more sense?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

oh I understood you just fine

actually I am surprised more people have not responded to your post

there are different kinds of angels...I have not personally made a big deal out of angels...and I really don't care for all the angel statues and literature out there these days...or dogs with angel wings etc

I believe the Bible indicates that angels play a much bigger role, even in our personal lives, then we might acknowledge...but their role is always subservient to the will of God

some people think they have the power to send angels...this is wrong as the Bible says no such thing...it is God who sends them and the Bible says they are ministering spirits to believers

what do you see in Hebrews that gives you the impression they were making a big deal of angels?

I don't see it that way, but curious why you might?

 

[Nehemiah6]

but I was never born into the system, nor born-again into it.

Do you mean that you have not been born again? If that is the case, you will never understand angels either. The first requisite for understanding Scripture is to be born again.

The angels themselves have done what we can't not do--not-sin

As you can see, this is your first mistake. Angels have sinned very grievously in the past, but there are also many holy angels

they don't seem that big a deal.

This is your second mistake. They are a big deal to God.

I never bothered studying angels. Nor do I plan on studying them.

This is your third mistake. Everything in the Bible is worthy of careful study.

All that to ask, how did they become such a big thing to Israel?

It was not Israel's decision to talk about angels. That was God's decision, and Israel were to be hearers and doers of the Word of God.

Why did the writer of Hebrews start with angels, to show Jesus was higher than they are?

Because angel worship had already started in Israel (and among the Gentiles), and Christians had to be shown that angels must not be worshiped, and that all the angels worship Christ and God, since they are the only ones worthy of worship.

What was their belief system before Hebrews became a letter to the Hebrews?

Judaism was their belief system before Christianity was established.

 

[whatev]

oh I understood you just fine

actually I am surprised more people have not responded to your post

there are different kinds of angels...I have not personally made a big deal out of angels...and I really don't care for all the angel statues and literature out there these days...or dogs with angel wings etc

I believe the Bible indicates that angels play a much bigger role, even in our personal lives, then we might acknowledge...but their role is always subservient to the will of God

some people think they have the power to send angels...this is wrong as the Bible says no such thing...it is God who sends them and the Bible says they are ministering spirits to believers

what do you see in Hebrews that gives you the impression they were making a big deal of angels?

I don't see it that way, but curious why you might?

I'm just starting to study Hebrews again, so I'm only in chapter two, but, so far, it's all about Jesus being superior to angels. And it keeps going back to angels. Considering the book is to the Hebrews, I'm assuming the author knew his audience and his audience understood the significance of that.

It feels like I'm reading something written to the direct descendants of the Tower of Babel, and it's assuming they understood exactly how God destroyed the tower and dispersed them, because it just happened. But all these millenniums later the details are lost on me.

If I can learn how they saw life at that moment, I could see the significance of what is being said to them. Now that writing, if it ever existed, doesn't matter to me. But this book is in the Bible, so it's God's inspired word, and I'm not getting something about it -- angels. How people saw angels back then. How the Hebrews saw them.

 

[whatev]

Do you mean that you have not been born again? If that is the case, you will never understand angels either. The first requisite for understanding Scripture is to be born again.

As you can see, this is your first mistake. Angels have sinned very grievously in the past, but there are also many holy angels

This is your second mistake. They are a big deal to God.

This is your third mistake. Everything in the Bible is worthy of careful study.

It was not Israel's decision to talk about angels. That was God's decision, and Israel were to be hearers and doers of the Word of God.

Because angel worship had already started in Israel (and among the Gentiles), and Christians had to be shown that angels must not be worshiped, and that all the angels worship Christ and God, since they are the only ones worthy of worship.

Judaism was their belief system before Christianity was established.

Is there something about me you don't like? I feel like a child in a department store and some guy approached me to give me a lecture. Except, I don't know the guy and I wasn't doing anything wrong at the time.

And I have a bigger exception than that. I'm not a child nor a new believer. When you want to talk as equals, instead of brow-beating me for things I haven't done, I would be interested in learning what angel worshipping was happening at the time.

 

[Deade]

Is there something about me you don't like? I feel like a child in a department store and some guy approached me to give me a lecture. Except, I don't know the guy and I wasn't doing anything wrong at the time.

And I have a bigger exception than that. I'm not a child nor a new believer. When you want to talk as equals, instead of brow-beating me for things I haven't done, I would be interested in learning what angel worshipping was happening at the time.

You still haven't answered Nehemiah's question:

Do you mean that you have not been born again? If that is the case, you will never understand angels either. The first requisite for understanding Scripture is to be born again.

How do we know to address you, when you say you haven't been born again and yet you are not a new believer? Those contradict each other.

 

[whatev]

You still haven't answered Nehemiah's question:


How do we know to address you, when you say you haven't been born again and yet you are not a new believer? Those contradict each other.

Is this the proper attitude on this site? Start out belligerent and refine it?

You're right. I didn't answer Nehem. I also wouldn't answer some stranger coming at me as a kid either. Mama taught me better than that.

And where did you get I'm not born-again? Because I wasn't born, nor born-again, into the system of beliefs of first century Hebrews? I wasn't. Not the same thing as not being regenerated by the Lord.

What was wrong with just answering me? And, if you don't know, you don't know. Considering I don't know, I won't be upset if others don't either.

Never mind.

Judging from the threads and the attitudes I've seen on this site, I'm not staying. It's not very fruitful.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Is this the proper attitude on this site? Start out belligerent and refine it?

You're right. I didn't answer Nehem. I also wouldn't answer some stranger coming at me as a kid either. Mama taught me better than that.

And where did you get I'm not born-again? Because I wasn't born, nor born-again, into the system of beliefs of first century Hebrews? I wasn't. Not the same thing as not being regenerated by the Lord.

What was wrong with just answering me? And, if you don't know, you don't know. Considering I don't know, I won't be upset if others don't either.

Never mind.

Judging from the threads and the attitudes I've seen on this site, I'm not staying. It's not very fruitful.

well yah know, yah kinda get just what you dish out

I don't believe you are not saved, but this is the 2nd time you state you are not staying

I'm certainly not going to talk you out of it as I have gone and come back myself, but you might try checking some of your attitude

that's my take. what you are asking in this op is actually a good question even though I do not see it through your filter...which is fine

 

[posthuman]

All that to ask, how did they become such a big thing to Israel? Why did the writer of Hebrews start with angels, to show Jesus was higher than they are? Yes, I understand Jesus is higher than they are, but what were the Jewish people seeing that made that such a big deal? What was their belief system before Hebrews became a letter to the Hebrews?

thinking of the history of the people, they were witness to the divine through a number of ways, a few obvious ones being the pillar of cloud and fire that shepherded them and the glory of the Lord that filled the temple. the whole congregation saw the image of Him this way at once, but both these things were gone by the time Christ appeared. some prophets saw Him in visions and signs, but to individuals He commonly revealed Himself to them over the centuries through angels - especially also in Christophanies, when not just any angel but "the" angel of the LORD appeared, and those who saw Him feared for their lives, because they had "seen God"

so i think maybe, the answer to what you're wondering about might have to do with the fact that without the Pillar or the Glory of the Lord to look to, at that point in history and perhaps simply in general if any Hebrew was going to be given the word of the Lord by the Lord, they would expect it to come through angels. that is to say, angels are the first thing one thinks of when one imagines a being who is "greater" than mankind. so the first question to analyze, if one considers Jesus of Nazareth and sees that He is no mere man, may be whether He is an angel, and how He compares to an angel.

Okay, we're not catching on to each other here. Let me try again.

did i catch your drift right? apologies if i missed what you're really asking

 

[posthuman]

Judging from the threads and the attitudes I've seen on this site, I'm not staying. It's not very fruitful.

there are a lot of different plants in a garden

 

[dcontroversal]

I'm reading/studying Hebrews. It starts with angels. According to Matthew Henry, angels were a big part of the Hebrew/Israelite belief system, but I was never born into the system, nor born-again into it. As far as I see it, angels are God's messengers and servants. The angels themselves have done what we can't not do--not-sin--but although they come at times for the Lord's purposes they don't seem that big a deal. And because of that, I never bothered studying angels. Nor do I plan on studying them.

All that to ask, how did they become such a big thing to Israel? Why did the writer of Hebrews start with angels, to show Jesus was higher than they are? Yes, I understand Jesus is higher than they are, but what were the Jewish people seeing that made that such a big deal? What was their belief system before Hebrews became a letter to the Hebrews?

Anyone know?

Just something to ponder.....within the history of Judah, in particular the Babylonian captivity, Daniel has numerous conversations with Gabriel and Michael is mentioned at least twice if I remember right....Daniel lays out the historicity of the world from Babylon to the end of the AGE and the Ancient of Days sitting on his throne judging....within the scope of this book, especially the last chapter, it becomes all too obvious that the people of Daniel still had much history to be written......

Also, within the scope of the O.T. we see angels heavily involved with Israel's history and fathers, such as Abraham, Jacob, etc. and the angel"s" of the Lord announcing judgment, prophecy, interpreting dreams etc.........

I will also add.....David in the Psalms makes numerous references unto the angels of God.....

So....to sum up....their History is replete with numerous accounts of angels woven into the fabric of their nation, their founding fathers, people etc......

 

[oldethennew]

we, hub and myself, are continually beseeching The Holy Spirit to 'cover-us', - AND
beseeching God to intervene on our behalf = even after 'deliverance', we still work/desire
to walk in His Shoes...

He does and continues to do so, for we LOVE HIM FIRST!!!

 

[jameen]

I'm reading/studying Hebrews. It starts with angels. According to Matthew Henry, angels were a big part of the Hebrew/Israelite belief system, but I was never born into the system, nor born-again into it. As far as I see it, angels are God's messengers and servants. The angels themselves have done what we can't not do--not-sin--but although they come at times for the Lord's purposes they don't seem that big a deal. And because of that, I never bothered studying angels. Nor do I plan on studying them.

All that to ask, how did they become such a big thing to Israel? Why did the writer of Hebrews start with angels, to show Jesus was higher than they are? Yes, I understand Jesus is higher than they are, but what were the Jewish people seeing that made that such a big deal? What was their belief system before Hebrews became a letter to the Hebrews?

Anyone know?

because angels in the Bible serve as guardians to God's servants (psalms 34:7) aside from being messengers of God's message to his servants.

Judge Gideon even thought that the angel is God (Judges 6:22)

 

[Nehemiah6]

Is there something about me you don't like? I feel like a child in a department store and some guy approached me to give me a lecture. Except, I don't know the guy and I wasn't doing anything wrong at the time.

Sorry, but that was not my intention at all. It is just when mistakes are being made, they need to be pointed out.

 

[whatev]

thinking of the history of the people, they were witness to the divine through a number of ways, a few obvious ones being the pillar of cloud and fire that shepherded them and the glory of the Lord that filled the temple. the whole congregation saw the image of Him this way at once, but both these things were gone by the time Christ appeared. some prophets saw Him in visions and signs, but to individuals He commonly revealed Himself to them over the centuries through angels - especially also in Christophanies, when not just any angel but "the" angel of the LORD appeared, and those who saw Him feared for their lives, because they had "seen God"

so i think maybe, the answer to what you're wondering about might have to do with the fact that without the Pillar or the Glory of the Lord to look to, at that point in history and perhaps simply in general if any Hebrew was going to be given the word of the Lord by the Lord, they would expect it to come through angels. that is to say, angels are the first thing one thinks of when one imagines a being who is "greater" than mankind. so the first question to analyze, if one considers Jesus of Nazareth and sees that He is no mere man, may be whether He is an angel, and how He compares to an angel.


did i catch your drift right? apologies if i missed what you're really asking

Oh, now that makes sense to me. Thank you! And yes, we caught the same drift.

 

[whatev]

because angels in the Bible serve as guardians to God's servants (psalms 34:7) aside from being messengers of God's message to his servants.

Judge Gideon even thought that the angel is God (Judges 6:22)

Yes, there are cases to be made that some of the angels are God. I like the one where three strangers/angels came to visit Abraham to tell him about what was happening to Lot. Two left to go see Lot and his family. One did not. I suspect the one that didn't keep going was the Lord.

 

[whatev]

Sorry, but that was not my intention at all. It is just when mistakes are being made, they need to be pointed out.

Of course, but the way you did it felt like I was being talked down to.