I was talking to my dad tonight about another thread, and he said oh you are a Calvinist... I say, no.... I will never believe G-d predestine people to hell... He said but you believe in the Sovereignty of G-d.... Then he asked me if I believed in Arminianism. I told him I do not think are 100% right but there is a middle and somehow we miss it... G-d is 100% Sovereign, G-d is G-d, yet we have free choice? Two theological beliefs can both have right things about them or is it one or the other?
Is it one or the Other or Can Both Have Truth?
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"What everyday people think" is not a good source for a good theology.
"Leibniz´book Theodicy was written as a theological discussion with Pierre Bayle, an orthodox Calvinist, having academic employments in Switzerland and Holland.
P. Bayle played a role of somebody who is trying to show that we, people, cannot have good explanations for God´s decisions, the origin of evil and why God allows it. Leibniz opposed it and tried to show that God does only what is best, because He is a good God."
For details, it will be the best to read the book.
"Leibniz´book Theodicy was written as a theological discussion with Pierre Bayle, an orthodox Calvinist, having academic employments in Switzerland and Holland.
P. Bayle played a role of somebody who is trying to show that we, people, cannot have good explanations for God´s decisions, the origin of evil and why God allows it. Leibniz opposed it and tried to show that God does only what is best, because He is a good God."
For details, it will be the best to read the book.
It kind of make sense but to be honest because I am a Jew I just down right hate catholicism. I never believing in earning my salvation, I have been saved for 26+ years couldn't get it MOST CERTAINLY CANNOT KEEP IT!!!! Try staying "sin free" for almost 30 years... LAUGHABLE RIGHT!?! Hating Catholicism is probably a sin right there, but it's true, they like to sloter my people.... I just think everyone misses it and G-d will pat us on our heads in heaven and tell us how we did. This is not a trick question.....
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If God chooses who will be saved, and not saved, without their choice, then God's kingdom is not true love, for the people that accepted the truth did not have a choice seeing no alternative, and He would condemn people that did nothing wrong, for the people that rejected the truth did not have a choice seeing no other alternative.
It goes against the nature of God who is love and not evil.
And God said He wants all people to be saved, and the Spirit and bride say anybody can have that salvation, and Jesus lights every person born in this world, which means everyone has the chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved.
Predestined to salvation means that God had the plan to give mankind salvation before the foundation of the world, for God calls things that have not happened as though they already happened, and that salvation is to whoever wants that salvation.
We did not choose God, but God chose us.
Many are called but few are chosen, so God does the calling and choosing on earth.
No person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.
No person says Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
When God calls a person He will work in their life to get them to the truth, and when they get to the door of truth they have to choose to open it, for God's kingdom is true love, but they would of not gotten to the door of truth unless God intervened in their life.
And that door of truth us to realize that sin separates us from God, and to hate sin, and do not want sin, and be led of the Spirit and abstain from sin.
Which the Bible says the Lord knows them that are His having this seal, which this is what seals the saints for this is the way they are led of the Spirit, that let everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Nobody is led of the Spirit unless they hate sin, and do not want sin, and that is what seals the saints unto the day of redemption.
But many do not walk through the door of truth, which the Bible says they have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, which they think sins do not affect their relationship with God, and hold unto sin and think they are still right with God.
And there are many people like that.
God had to give us a choice for His kingdom is true love, and He is not evil to condemn people that did not have a choice, and God does the calling and choosing on earth, and nobody could of gotten to the truth, and accepted the truth unless God intervened in their life when He called them.
Also all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
And there is none that does good, no, not one.
And there is no good thing that dwells in the saints.
And if a person thinks they are something when they are nothing they deceive themselves.
And what makes you to differ from another person.
And there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek.
Everybody is in the same boat, and on the same level, so why would God choose who will be saved, and not saved, without their choice.
And God gets the glory for nobody accepts the truth unless God is working in their life.
We have a choice, God does the calling, and choosing on earth, and nobody accepts the truth unless God works in their life.
I suppose that is as middle ground as you can get.
It goes against the nature of God who is love and not evil.
And God said He wants all people to be saved, and the Spirit and bride say anybody can have that salvation, and Jesus lights every person born in this world, which means everyone has the chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved.
Predestined to salvation means that God had the plan to give mankind salvation before the foundation of the world, for God calls things that have not happened as though they already happened, and that salvation is to whoever wants that salvation.
We did not choose God, but God chose us.
Many are called but few are chosen, so God does the calling and choosing on earth.
No person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.
No person says Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
When God calls a person He will work in their life to get them to the truth, and when they get to the door of truth they have to choose to open it, for God's kingdom is true love, but they would of not gotten to the door of truth unless God intervened in their life.
And that door of truth us to realize that sin separates us from God, and to hate sin, and do not want sin, and be led of the Spirit and abstain from sin.
Which the Bible says the Lord knows them that are His having this seal, which this is what seals the saints for this is the way they are led of the Spirit, that let everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Nobody is led of the Spirit unless they hate sin, and do not want sin, and that is what seals the saints unto the day of redemption.
But many do not walk through the door of truth, which the Bible says they have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, which they think sins do not affect their relationship with God, and hold unto sin and think they are still right with God.
And there are many people like that.
God had to give us a choice for His kingdom is true love, and He is not evil to condemn people that did not have a choice, and God does the calling and choosing on earth, and nobody could of gotten to the truth, and accepted the truth unless God intervened in their life when He called them.
Also all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
And there is none that does good, no, not one.
And there is no good thing that dwells in the saints.
And if a person thinks they are something when they are nothing they deceive themselves.
And what makes you to differ from another person.
And there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek.
Everybody is in the same boat, and on the same level, so why would God choose who will be saved, and not saved, without their choice.
And God gets the glory for nobody accepts the truth unless God is working in their life.
We have a choice, God does the calling, and choosing on earth, and nobody accepts the truth unless God works in their life.
I suppose that is as middle ground as you can get.
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I am sorry if I come off strong about Catholics, in my mind I seperate the two; there are many (too many to count)saved Catholics... It is the religion I honestly hate... I have catholic friends, that love us....But that is probably a different thread...
I'm just saying in the post can G-d not be a Sovereign G-d and yet give us free-will?
I'm just saying in the post can G-d not be a Sovereign G-d and yet give us free-will?
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I detest all of the systematic theologies! Since no one has the whole truth. We all only know in part, seeing the truth itself through a dark glass. Our theology should cone to us from the Lord, not from man. As believers in Jesus they mean well and want to be accurate, but often take one truth and go too far making their theology out-of-balance. Sadly the truth feels exactly the same as error does, even when that truth is revealed to a person by the illumination of the Holy Spirit. If we knew where our error is, we'd change it, but as it is we each of us do the best we can, but our own understanding keeps getting in the way of the truth.
King Solomon tells us by the Spirit in Pr 19:27 "Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge."
In Is 28:9,10 we see: "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little."
And in 2 Pet 1:3,4 "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
1 Pet 2:2 "As newborn babes desire the sincere milk of the word that ye may grow thereby:"
2 Tim 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
2 Tim 3:16,17 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
Jesus said in Mt 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
King Solomon tells us by the Spirit in Pr 19:27 "Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge."
In Is 28:9,10 we see: "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little."
And in 2 Pet 1:3,4 "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
1 Pet 2:2 "As newborn babes desire the sincere milk of the word that ye may grow thereby:"
2 Tim 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
2 Tim 3:16,17 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
Jesus said in Mt 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
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Rom 17-22 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"
Pharaoh deserved his judgment from before he was hardened, but the Lord endured with much long-suffering in order to show his power throughout the world. The Lord, who is kind (Lu 6:35) unto the unthankful and to the evil, will not punish for things committed while hardened, only for those things committed before the hardening. How often to you suppose that the Lord hardens verses showing mercy? The Lord wants us to want him. That's why the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Fervent because it is really wanted. Effectual because the supplicant isn't willing to take no. Its just that the Lord wants us to grow up so much that he tries our faith to produce perseverance, which makes him all to often, to be a God of the last minute! So the Lord is sovereign and delights in our free will, when we choose him. This is seen in the parable of the ninety and nine, where: Lu 15:6,7 "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."
Pharaoh deserved his judgment from before he was hardened, but the Lord endured with much long-suffering in order to show his power throughout the world. The Lord, who is kind (Lu 6:35) unto the unthankful and to the evil, will not punish for things committed while hardened, only for those things committed before the hardening. How often to you suppose that the Lord hardens verses showing mercy? The Lord wants us to want him. That's why the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Fervent because it is really wanted. Effectual because the supplicant isn't willing to take no. Its just that the Lord wants us to grow up so much that he tries our faith to produce perseverance, which makes him all to often, to be a God of the last minute! So the Lord is sovereign and delights in our free will, when we choose him. This is seen in the parable of the ninety and nine, where: Lu 15:6,7 "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."
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Free choice is to do the will of God as that in which mankind was created to do. No choice as a approval of God. Not having a will of his own. But one that could walk in agreement as two walking together. Only God who is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul pleases is a free, I would call secret agent not seen.
A choice under the bondage of the pleasure of the will of another.... “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. Brought death . You could say they drank in the poison of the serpent. and not the meat of God's word, the free will or spiritual understanding of the believer hid from the lost. The kind of food the disciples knew not of doing the will of God .
John 4:3Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
We are either a slave to God's loving will or we return to the garden, the will of the murderer . No limbo in between.
A choice under the bondage of the pleasure of the will of another.... “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. Brought death . You could say they drank in the poison of the serpent. and not the meat of God's word, the free will or spiritual understanding of the believer hid from the lost. The kind of food the disciples knew not of doing the will of God .
John 4:3Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
We are either a slave to God's loving will or we return to the garden, the will of the murderer . No limbo in between.
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Here's all the verses concerning predestination. None of them have salvation as their context. None.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
All verses are talking about already saved people and what God has promised to them in the future, the believers' destination. It's a future thing. It hadn't happened yet. The believer is predestinated to the adoption which is the redemption of our bodies. The redemption is when our bodies will be changed to be conformed to the image of Christ, when this corruptible shall put on incorruption and this mortal shall put on immortality. Then we will bear the image of the heavenly. 1 Corinthians 15
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
All verses are talking about already saved people and what God has promised to them in the future, the believers' destination. It's a future thing. It hadn't happened yet. The believer is predestinated to the adoption which is the redemption of our bodies. The redemption is when our bodies will be changed to be conformed to the image of Christ, when this corruptible shall put on incorruption and this mortal shall put on immortality. Then we will bear the image of the heavenly. 1 Corinthians 15
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This one is quite clear... everything is everything:
"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will"
Eph 1:5
That means wordly events:
"They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."
Acts 4:28
And also spiritual events:
"And the Gentiles hearing it were rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
Acts 13:48
"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will"
Eph 1:5
That means wordly events:
"They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."
Acts 4:28
And also spiritual events:
"And the Gentiles hearing it were rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
Acts 13:48
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Ephesians 1:5 above clearly states the destination chosen by God to those that are in him, in Christ. It does not say we were chosen to be in Christ which is what the Calvinist wants it to say.
Acts 13:48 is used used by the Calvinists to prove that God ordains people to get saved in the sense He chooses them to get saved against their depraved will. Note that the word "ordain" never fixes anything absolutely. (Lk. 7:8; Rom. 13:1; Acts 28:23, Matt. 28:16; 1 Cor. 9:14; 7:17) Paul ordained some things and that no more meant they were absolutely fixed to come to pass than if he hadn't used the word. (Rom. 13:1) The meaning is obviously that as many as were disposed to believe the message, believed.(Rom. 2:7) - God doesn't ordain any Gentile to eternal life until he has followed his conscience and is willing to hear the Word of God (vs. 42,48) "ordained" something God allows to come to pass.
Acts 13:48 is used used by the Calvinists to prove that God ordains people to get saved in the sense He chooses them to get saved against their depraved will. Note that the word "ordain" never fixes anything absolutely. (Lk. 7:8; Rom. 13:1; Acts 28:23, Matt. 28:16; 1 Cor. 9:14; 7:17) Paul ordained some things and that no more meant they were absolutely fixed to come to pass than if he hadn't used the word. (Rom. 13:1) The meaning is obviously that as many as were disposed to believe the message, believed.(Rom. 2:7) - God doesn't ordain any Gentile to eternal life until he has followed his conscience and is willing to hear the Word of God (vs. 42,48) "ordained" something God allows to come to pass.
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