Trinity vs. Oneness

[AgeofKnowledge]

I would love it if VW would stop making misguided judgmental inferences about me personally and my motives. Time willl tell if he can rise to that challenge to be loving himself and stop that sort of behavior.

I love everyone here. God loves everyone here. I know I am here out of love. Not forever, because God is going to lead me in another direction to do ministry in the not too distant future.

But for awhile I'm here. And I intend to speak honestly from the heart from love and not mince words about important matters. Because I do love you.

Love is not at issue here. Correcting heresy about who God really is, that's what's at issue here so the woman can find the real Jesus and the real Gospel and obtain real forgiveness. I have not shied away from it.

VW and AOK, I respect both of you. I believe that both of you have very specific and useful ministries. It breaks my heart to see you at odds with another when I actually believe that both of you are right. AOK is acting in love to stop what he knows to be a very real danger, especially for the impressionable. VW is acting in love toward the Oneness believers hoping that the love of God will keep their hearts open toward the truth. Think about it brothers.

 

[VW]

See you just did it again VW. You just made a personal judgment against me. I'm speaking against making up heresy here. I'm not judging anyone on a personal level. But you have been and this right here is a witness to it. What about all those things you said on page 33 about those who act in this manner that you're acting in. This is the sort of behavior I was referring to VW in my earlier posts where I responded to you. Please stop doing this to me.

Please define heretic for me. And not just one who believes heresy. Did you know that the recognized church not all that long ago used heresy as a valid reason to burn someone at the stake? Discussion of doctrine is one thing, but calling someone, someone who loves Jesus, a heretic, is a horse of a completely different color. I do not believe oneness doctrine, but I would never call someone who did believe this doctrine any name at all, much less heretic, unless they did not believe in Jesus Christ, and most likely not even then, unless specifically directed to do so by the Holy Spirit.

I did not judge you, but speaker to you to change the tone of your posts. I guess I should have known better.

 

[VW]

VW and AOK, I respect both of you. I believe that both of you have very specific and useful ministries. It breaks my heart to see you at odds with another when I actually believe that both of you are right. AOK is acting in love to stop what he knows to be a very real danger, especially for the impressionable. VW is acting in love toward the Oneness believers hoping that the love of God will keep their hearts open toward the truth. Think about it brothers.

Thank you David. I have thought about it. I have only one thing to say to every reading this thread. I am sorry that it came to this place.

I have thought and prayed about this question, and I still know that heresy is the wrong word to apply to the beliefs of those who see God as one. I see support for this belief in scripture, as well as support for the trinity view. I know in my heart that to apply the term heresy to either belief is not only unprofitable, but is actually hurtful. It does not and cannot build up another in Christ.

If one did not acknowledge Jesus Christ, the Son of God, but rather had a view of God as being some created being, or maybe the non-living power of the universe, or a non feeling and non thinking power responsible for everything, then yeah, that is heresy. I would even go so far as saying that salvation by works, or by anything except grace through faith in Jesus is heresy. But one who confesses the Son, who has the Son, also has the Father, whether they know it or not.

 

[VW]

I would love it if VW would stop making misguided judgmental inferences about me personally and my motives. Time willl tell if he can rise to that challenge to be loving himself and stop that sort of behavior.

I love everyone here. God loves everyone here. I know I am here out of love. Not forever, because God is going to lead me in another direction to do ministry in the not too distant future.

But for awhile I'm here. And I intend to speak honestly from the heart from love and not mince words about important matters. Because I do love you.

Love is not at issue here. Correcting heresy about who God really is, that's what's at issue here so the woman can find the real Jesus and the real Gospel and obtain real forgiveness. I have not shied away from it.

By the way, the reference in my earlier post is in Matt. Not John. Not everything we learn in school is correct.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I use the word as it is used in scripture, specifically the Greek word [hairesis] from the root [haireomai], which means 'a choosing.'

Heresy is always a matter of choice. In the Bible, heresy refers to any doctrine held by any faction or party that departs from essential Christian truths in disunion with the established laws of God.

This topic of who God is certainly qualifies... hence the word usage.

As one author puts it, "Parties, sects or factions holding to such caustic doctrines, alienate themselves from the body and are called Heretics."

I am NOT using it to condemn persons like the Roman Catholic Church that arose in the restored Roman Empire did. Geesh.

I'm using it in a scholarly correct manner. An example would be to turn your Bible to 1st Corinthians 11:18-19: "For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."

That's it. No burning stakes. No Roman Catholic Church dogma (I have nothing to do with that religious organ nor am I member of it). No condemnation of a person.

I use the word in a scholarly manner to distinct a heresy from a true orthodox position on scripture with the belief and understanding that a person can repent from a heresy simply by choosing to. That's it. Our gracious God forgives just like he did Saul on the road to Damascus.

If you had graduated from Bible college, you would have taken enough church history and theology to have known that.

Like I said in another thread, if someone comes to me and says I found Jesus and accepted him as my savior I would say "Fantastic! Who do you think Jesus is?"

If they said to me, "while he's a little green Martian that lives on Mars and is preparing a hive of spirit children to develop UFOs and take over the earth" then I would say to them out of love, "Friend, you have the wrong Jesus. Let me tell you who he REALLY is."

Now I'm being somewhat factious with phrasing it in that manner because I wish to stress how important it is to have the right Jesus.

And that's what this is all about VW. Nothing more.

Please define heretic for me. And not just one who believes heresy. Did you know that the recognized church not all that long ago used heresy as a valid reason to burn someone at the stake? Discussion of doctrine is one thing, but calling someone, someone who loves Jesus, a heretic, is a horse of a completely different color. I do not believe oneness doctrine, but I would never call someone who did believe this doctrine any name at all, much less heretic, unless they did not believe in Jesus Christ, and most likely not even then, unless specifically directed to do so by the Holy Spirit.

I did not judge you, but speaker to you to change the tone of your posts. I guess I should have known better.

 

[VW]

My last post on this thread.

No matter how we intend our words to be taken, we should realize that not everyone is educated in bible collage, and some may take a word we use in a much different way. If I offend another, even if I use my words correctly, I am still at fault for causing offense.

Education is not the end of all things. Jesus is the beginning and the end of all things. If one knows Him, loves Him, and comes to the Father through Him, they are doing well, no matter what their definition of God is.

 

[Consumed]

Calling heresy heresy is not a personal attack Consumed: it's a factual statement. I would like those that engage in the practice to see it for what it is because I do care about them, love them, and want them to know God as He is like the woman Jesus forgave whom the Pharisees were going to stone. She didn't sit around like some here in this thread have been doing using her best thinking to "perfect" a new heresy.

She accepted Jesus as He really is. And so have I. So hold your rocks of judgment Consumed and don't throw them anymore at me for striving with people from love for their sake and also the readers.

God bless you.

once again you throw stones brother, like i stated , your missing the point, its in the manner you present your belief, loveless, thats my view and in having that view you get offended, say that you do it all out of love and so the cycle continues. im not addressing your doctrinal beliefs, your entitled to them brother, it is the manner in which you present them, clang bang clang bang


blessings

 

[livingbygrace]

My last post on this thread.

No matter how we intend our words to be taken, we should realize that not everyone is educated in bible collage, and some may take a word we use in a much different way. If I offend another, even if I use my words correctly, I am still at fault for causing offense.

Education is not the end of all things. Jesus is the beginning and the end of all things. If one knows Him, loves Him, and comes to the Father through Him, they are doing well, no matter what their definition of God is.

It is interesting to note that Peter James and John would in many denominations today be unable to be ministers. They were itinerant fisherman. They would never have got through Bible college.

I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age?
Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know Him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 1Cor1:19-21

Not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were influential, not many were of noble birth.
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong
He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things-and the things that are not-to nullify the things that are-so that no-one can boast before Him. 1Cor1:26-29

When I came to you brothers I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear and with much trembling
My message and my preaching were not wise and persuassive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirits power, so that your faith might not rest on mens wisdom, but on God's power. 1Cor2:1-5

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. 1Cor3:19

It seems to most today earthly wisdom and intellect are all important. But the greatest theologian of them all lives in each and everyone of us.

My nephew has just finished Bible college. He has learnt much head theology, but I wonder if his heart has come closer to God during this time. He never speaks of the Holy Spirit and a simple childlike faith in Christ. It is all head theology and Greek and other translations of the Bible. He has a vast amount of books of various scholars and theologians, I wonder if he is relying on this and not the Holy Spirit within him for truth

 

[livingbygrace]

once again you throw stones brother, like i stated , your missing the point, its in the manner you present your belief, loveless, thats my view and in having that view you get offended, say that you do it all out of love and so the cycle continues. im not addressing your doctrinal beliefs, your entitled to them brother, it is the manner in which you present them, clang bang clang bang


blessings

Consumed, I always benefit from reading your posts, thank you for them. You clearly know the heart of the Gospel and what is most important. That is far more to be treasured than earthly wisdom or any knowledge of any scholar or theologian no matter how earthly wise they may appear to be.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

You just threw another stone at me Consumed. You called me unloving and accused me of doing what you are falsely doing to me: personally condemning people.

Come to grips with your own words and behavior here friend. If you're honest, you'll see you're part of the problem by throwing your personal judgments at me that aren't true.

I am loving. What I do is out of love. Feel free to stop hurling your personal accusations. If I use your logic, I'll have to assume you're not doing it in love. See? Second request. Check yourself. It will be appreciated.

once again you throw stones brother, like i stated , your missing the point, its in the manner you present your belief, loveless, thats my view and in having that view you get offended, say that you do it all out of love and so the cycle continues. im not addressing your doctrinal beliefs, your entitled to them brother, it is the manner in which you present them, clang bang clang bang


blessings

 

[Consumed]

You just threw another stone at me Consumed. You called me unloving and accused me of doing what you are falsely doing to me: personally condemning people.

Come to grips with your own words and behavior here friend. If you're honest, you'll see you're part of the problem by throwing your personal judgments at me that aren't true.

I am loving. What I do is out of love. Feel free to stop hurling your personal accusations. If I use your logic, I'll have to assume you're not doing it in love. See? Second request. Check yourself. It will be appreciated.

sorry brother, you addressed this before and agreed you need to show more love and compassion, then go in the other direction, im not your judge, nor condemning you, its in the manner you come across, read the posts i posted please...

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

livingbygrace,

Those simple Apostles weren't all so simple. Some of them were learned men. But even if they all were, they had "the Word" with them. God himself walked with them instructing them orally.

Anti-intellectual prejudice is self-defeating. Spiritually reborn believers who love God enough to spend the time and effort studying His Word don't lose points for that.

Your assumption that everyone who takes the time to understand God's Word properly must be at a spiritual disadvantage is absurd.

If you had done so, you would know that Paul was talking to Roman Pagans who had the wrong epstimology or learning and wasn't degrading people who care enough about God to learn what His Word actually says. Paul himself was both an expert at handling God's Word and filled with the Spirit of God.

The smart Christian has both the Holy Spirit and an accurate understanding of God's Word.

 

[livingbygrace]

livingbygrace,

Those simple Apostles weren't all so simple. Some of them were learned men. But even if they all were, they had "the Word" with them. God himself walked with them instructing them orally.

Anti-intellectual prejudice is self-defeating. Spiritually reborn believers who love God enough to spend the time and effort studying His Word don't lose points for that.

Your assumption that everyone who takes the time to understand God's Word properly must be at a spiritual disadvantage is absurd.

If you had done so, you would know that Paul was talking to Roman Pagans who had the wrong epstimology or learning and wasn't degrading people who care enough about God to learn what His Word actually says. Paul himself was both an expert at handling God's Word and filled with the Spirit of God.

The smart Christian has both the Holy Spirit and an accurate understanding of God's Word.

Many Christians have been upset by my above comments. The truly wise Christian leans entirely on the Holy Sprit and not earthly understanding. Paul was a highly educated individual but threw it all aside to follow after and rely completely on the Holy Spirit and faith in Christ.

Most Christians today seem proud of their degrees, earthly wisdom and knowledge. There is no power in that.

We understand the truth of God's word by the Holy Spirit within us. He is the Spirit of truth and Christ said he would lead us into truth. But how many in their hearts rely on the Spirit for truth? And how many trust in the earthly wisdom of the intellectuual mind?

The 'smart' Christian knows in their heart that they have no understanding of their own. They can only know spiritual truths by the Spirit within them. This ghas nothing to do with earthly wisdom or intellect

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I'm not upset at all though I am tired and getting ready for bed.

You're wrong on several points. First, you're still missing that lots of people come along with non-Biblical or misrepresented scriptural teaching on essentials of the faith claiming God gave them to them. In fact, people come along claiming God said all sorts of things to them that have nothing to do with Christianity. Talk to a Hindu mystic sometime.

Paul was speaking to pagans in those verses you referenced NOT authentic born again christians. That's a big difference. You never differentiated that.

God says in His Word that he doesn't contradict Himself. So if someone comes along claiming to have new revelation from God (or gods) on essential matters such as who God really is, I'm going to check it against scripture just as God tells me to in His Word.

Understand, the voice of Wisdom points to God as the source of wisdom (ref Job). Human understanding alone, though it is God given, is not sufficient for wisdom. That's what the verse “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding” (Prov 3:5 NIV) is actually saying.

It isn't saying disregard God's Word or go against it, something Paul never did after His conversion. What it is saying is the pursuit of knowledge attempted without reference to God is at best precarious and distorted, and if persistently pursued becomes seriously misleading and damaging just as happened to the ancient Pagans.

Wisdom embraces understanding, correctly understood, (“understanding is a fountain of life,” Prov 16:22 NIV) and the emotional heart of a person (“guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life,” Prov 4:23 NIV). Wisdom, and with it true teaching, encompasses both mind and heart.

Jesus is the supreme expression of the divine teacher, showing compassion combined with clarity, power and authority in correct instruction rooted in God's Word. Am I to disregard the teachings of Jesus and everything scripture says. Of course not. Is that what (Prov 3:5 NIV) is telling us. Of course not. That verse was never an instruction to disregard God's Word but rather an exhortation to Trust in God.

There's nothing inherently evil for a born again Christian who lives each day led by the Spirit to have a mind filled with the knowledge of God to aid them. It doesn't have to be an either/or proposition as you seem to be suggesting here (at least as it reads to me).

2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

I wish more people did have an accurate understanding of God's Word just like I wish more people were born again spirit-filled Christians.

Many Christians have been upset by my above comments. The truly wise Christian leans entirely on the Holy Sprit and not earthly understanding. Paul was a highly educated individual but threw it all aside to follow after and rely completely on the Holy Spirit and faith in Christ.

Most Christians today seem proud of their degrees, earthly wisdom and knowledge. There is no power in that.

We understand the truth of God's word by the Holy Spirit within us. He is the Spirit of truth and Christ said he would lead us into truth. But how many in their hearts rely on the Spirit for truth? And how many trust in the earthly wisdom of the intellectuual mind?

The 'smart' Christian knows in their heart that they have no understanding of their own. They can only know spiritual truths by the Spirit within them. This ghas nothing to do with earthly wisdom or intellect

 

[Consumed]

we need not gaurd our heart - o/t is old wine, divide the Word at the Cross. Old wine skins cant hold new wine.

Be anxious for nothing but in prayer and supplication with all thanksgiving let your requests be known to God and the peace of God which surpasses all understanding WILL GUARD your hearts and mind in Christ Jesus.

If any man lack wisdom, let him ask??? who?? God and He will give liberally to those who ask.

Timmothy teaches us to stick to the truth of the finished work of the cross in its fulness, letter of the law kills, grace abounds., forgiveness of sins, righteousness of Jesus, blood shed, the freedom Jesus has purchased for us, it is finished, enter His rest.

read galations 3 - 4 and romans

abc christianity

 

[Red33]

It is a very vital and wonderful thing to understand the Godhead when you have the written word and the Holy Spirit to guide you. God is eternal, he had no beginning and no ending and he is the alpha and the omega (Rev 1:8). The Father is eternal (Deut 33:27), the Son is eternal (Jn 5:11,20) and the Holy Spirit is also eternal (Heb 9:14). All three are eternal and have eternal life (Jn 17:3, 1Jn 5:11,20, Gal 6:8). They have always been and always will be because they are infinite. Each one represents uncreated life and they all agree in one (1Jn 5:7,8).

* Even if 1Jn 5:7 was not part of this inspired text, how many believers that consider the rest of the inspired scriptures would actually think that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirt are not one, and do not abide in heaven and do not agree?

There is one Father who is above all and through all, one Lord Jesus Christ and one Holy Spirit (Eph 4:4-6, 1Cor 8:6, Eph 2:8). They are absolutely one and function in that oneness flawlessly (Jn 8:29,10:30, 14:24,26) . If we have one Father, one Lord and one Spirit then they are all one and must agree as one to reveal one God. They are the Godhead of oneness and can not be separated, yet they are three distinct eternal persons that make up the Godhead. The Son is the expressed image of his person (Heb 1:3). The word for person is hupostasis - which means foundational substance. Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He was the only Son that came from that foundational substance.

Christ said that if you have seen him you have seen the Father in terms of his foundational substance that was not created and can not be destroyed. This was God as the Word being made flesh (or manifest in the flesh - 1Tim 3:16) to be able to dwell among men and the disciples beheld his glory as of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 1:14). The Holy Spirit that came from the Father was of that same foundational substance but never put on flesh as the Son did as the only begotten. The Holy Spirit puts on flesh when he comes to indwell you and I when we believe upon the Son (1Jn 4:13). All three provide to sinful man the same salvation, all three provide the same redemption and all three reveal that there is one God. We learn of these things in the conversation that Christ had with the disciples and with his Father, who is in heaven, in John chapters 14-17. These things are irrefutable whether you believe in the doctrine of oneness or the doctrine of the trinity.

There is submission within the Godhead and that submission reveals the nature and foundational substance of their oneness. They have specific roles and functions within the plan and will of God but those functions reveal one God that is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. There is no disputing or overruling in the Godhead because they all rule as one but they have order ). All three were involved with the plan of redemption, the execution of that plan and how that plan was to be revealed to the heart of man. All three were involved in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. The Father spoke the Word, it became flesh as the only begotten of the Father and the Holy Spirit was sent into our hearts to reveal the Son and his words crying 'Abba Father' (Gal 4:6). The Son recognized the Father, the Spirit recognized the Father and teaches us to do the same and the Father sent both the Son and the Spirit. One heavenly Father, one begotten Son, one Holy Spirit, one body of Christ and one faith. All having the same love and declaring that there is one God that is above all, through all and in you all (Eph 4:6).

Call the Godhead a Trinity (one God of three persons) or Oneness (one God that is revealed by the manifestation of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit). Either way there are three parts that make up the Godhead and all three agree and all three are one. If someone wants to believe that Jesus is the Father, let them, because they are one after all. Whether they baptize in the name of Jesus or in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, there is only one God that they are baptizing in and only one God that died for them, only one God that saved them by grace and only one God that they will return to in heaven. Each one acknowledges that Jesus Christ is their Saviour and Lord. Some will baptize in the name of Jesus, some will baptize in the name of the trinity and those that have been baptized either way have put off the old man and put on the new and we are thankful. Will I also be accused of being a heretic?

 

[distinctiveministry]

First my post was general in nature not to you specifically though you chose to take it that way. I NEVER used your name.

So for you to take it personally as if I did and then threaten to report me for being rude is a very odd tactic. Especially when you choose to call me "messed up in the head" which itself is a very rude comment.

Honestly, here it just looks like you're trying to invent a foundation to start reporting me. The moderators here are very intelligent and will see right through it.

Peace and God bless you.

You posted your comments with a quote of me. I think it is completely normal on CC to take that to mean you are addressing me.

 

[livingbygrace]

I'm not upset at all though I am tired and getting ready for bed.

You're wrong on several points. First, you're still missing that lots of people come along with non-Biblical or misrepresented scriptural teaching on essentials of the faith claiming God gave them to them. In fact, people come along claiming God said all sorts of things to them that have nothing to do with Christianity. Talk to a Hindu mystic sometime.

Paul was speaking to pagans in those verses you referenced NOT authentic born again christians. That's a big difference. You never differentiated that.

God says in His Word that he doesn't contradict Himself. So if someone comes along claiming to have new revelation from God (or gods) on essential matters such as who God really is, I'm going to check it against scripture just as God tells me to in His Word.

Understand, the voice of Wisdom points to God as the source of wisdom (ref Job). Human understanding alone, though it is God given, is not sufficient for wisdom. That's what the verse “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding” (Prov 3:5 NIV) is actually saying.

It isn't saying disregard God's Word or go against it, something Paul never did after His conversion. What it is saying is the pursuit of knowledge attempted without reference to God is at best precarious and distorted, and if persistently pursued becomes seriously misleading and damaging just as happened to the ancient Pagans.

Wisdom embraces understanding, correctly understood, (“understanding is a fountain of life,” Prov 16:22 NIV) and the emotional heart of a person (“guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life,” Prov 4:23 NIV). Wisdom, and with it true teaching, encompasses both mind and heart.

Jesus is the supreme expression of the divine teacher, showing compassion combined with clarity, power and authority in correct instruction rooted in God's Word. Am I to disregard the teachings of Jesus and everything scripture says. Of course not. Is that what (Prov 3:5 NIV) is telling us. Of course not. That verse was never an instruction to disregard God's Word but rather an exhortation to Trust in God.

There's nothing inherently evil for a born again Christian who lives each day led by the Spirit to have a mind filled with the knowledge of God to aid them. It doesn't have to be an either/or proposition as you seem to be suggesting here (at least as it reads to me).

2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

I wish more people did have an accurate understanding of God's Word just like I wish more people were born again spirit-filled Christians.

Paul was speaking to pagans in those verses?

He wrote that letter to the church of God in Corinth, but it would not matter who he wrote it to. The truth is still the truth.

Of course what we believe as Christians must be based on scripture. I don't quite understand your points. You say I am wrong in many instances. Could you explain which ones specifically

Whether a person has great earthly intellect or not means absolutely nothing when it comes to understanding the truth of God's word.

We have not recveived the spirit of the world but the spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak. Not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
The man without the spirit does not accept the things that come from the spirit of God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 1Cor2:12-14

What matters is the heart. The closer a person comes to God, the more they yield to the Holy Spirit in their lives, I am sure the more the spirit is able to reveal to them

Earthly intellect can be a wonderful thing and help an individual have a better quality of life, a better job etc, but when it comes to the spiritual and understanding the truth of God's word, the person with great earthly intellect is no better off than the person with little earthly intellect. In many cases I am positive great earthly intellect proves a stumblingblock to many.

I can only repeat it is the Holy Spirit who reveals truth to us and convicts us of truth, and the closer we come to God the more He is able to reveal to us.

There is a man on another website I frequent. Someone commented that he had the theology but not the heart of the Gospel. I would agree with that.

Anything can be checked against scripture. But as we read the Bible the Holy Spirit reveals the truths to us of what He would have us see. I don't quite understand your point here.

I have discussed with many intellectual people the Gospel of grace Paul preached. Most of them do not accept the plain statements he wrote on the subject. The early Christians lived their lives in simple childlike faith and a total reliance on the Holy Spirit. They were known as the way.

I believe the truth is that in their hearts many rely on man's wisdom and philosophers and scholars that they firstly see as being deep thinkers and having great natural intellect. This has nothing to do with understanding in our hearts the truth of God's word

 

[distinctiveministry]

Living,
I'm not sure that "simple, childlike faith" really best describes the early church. I mean, they dealt with a lot of different forms of persecution and hostility that undoubtedly stripped the "childlike" right out of their faith. Theirs was a tested, tried, and persevering faith.

That aside, I do think your point is well made. The earliest form of Christianity was not an intellectual movement, but a movement based on the Spirit's power. Even Paul, from whom most of Christian theology draws, wrote the passages you quoted about eschewing worldly wisdom in favor of demonstrating Christ through his life and the Spirit.

Having said that, however...
One has to recognize that there has necessarily been some change since the earliest church. The main thing with regard to this "intellectual" dynamic is that the early church could afford to be a bit less than "academic" about the faith simply because the Apostles were still alive. The Apostles, collectively and to a lesser extent individually, had authority to say what was and was not truth. They learned directly from the Lord and could oppose any false claims about Him with their own experience. There was much less need for interpretation of scriptures and Christ, for He Himself had explained everything. We are now almost 2,000 years removed from Christ and His apostles. We no longer have the authority that comes from having one among us who learned directly from Christ. Add to this the fact that we are removed not only by a large period of time, but also by language, culture, geography and a common history that was shared by the earliest believers. In order to accurately understand the Apostles and Christ, one needs some understanding of each of these subjects. To some extent, then, modern Christian authority is based on intellectual accuity. Not entirely, but to some extent. Of course, most of us here are Protestants, so we say sola scriptura, or "scripture alone" is our authority. Unless you read the original languages, however, you are already reliant upon someone else's expertise in translating the text in order to bridge one gap. Cultural and historical notes in your Bible are another form of expertise meant to assist you in your interpretation.

I'll leave you with this thought. Without the Spirit to guide us, the person with great earthly intellect is no better than a person with little intellect in understanding spiritual things and the Word of God. Great earthly intellect, however, is an amazing tool for the Spirit to use to lead us to deeper understanding of spiritual things and the Word. The ideal then, is not the absence of intellect, but the submission of the intellect to the Spirit.

 

[distinctiveministry]

It is a very vital and wonderful thing to understand the Godhead when you have the written word and the Holy Spirit to guide you. God is eternal, he had no beginning and no ending and he is the alpha and the omega (Rev 1:8). The Father is eternal (Deut 33:27), the Son is eternal (Jn 5:11,20) and the Holy Spirit is also eternal (Heb 9:14). All three are eternal and have eternal life (Jn 17:3, 1Jn 5:11,20, Gal 6:8). They have always been and always will be because they are infinite. Each one represents uncreated life and they all agree in one (1Jn 5:7,8).

* Even if 1Jn 5:7 was not part of this inspired text, how many believers that consider the rest of the inspired scriptures would actually think that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirt are not one, and do not abide in heaven and do not agree?

There is one Father who is above all and through all, one Lord Jesus Christ and one Holy Spirit (Eph 4:4-6, 1Cor 8:6, Eph 2:8). They are absolutely one and function in that oneness flawlessly (Jn 8:29,10:30, 14:24,26) . If we have one Father, one Lord and one Spirit then they are all one and must agree as one to reveal one God. They are the Godhead of oneness and can not be separated, yet they are three distinct eternal persons that make up the Godhead. The Son is the expressed image of his person (Heb 1:3). The word for person is hupostasis - which means foundational substance. Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He was the only Son that came from that foundational substance.

Christ said that if you have seen him you have seen the Father in terms of his foundational substance that was not created and can not be destroyed. This was God as the Word being made flesh (or manifest in the flesh - 1Tim 3:16) to be able to dwell among men and the disciples beheld his glory as of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 1:14). The Holy Spirit that came from the Father was of that same foundational substance but never put on flesh as the Son did as the only begotten. The Holy Spirit puts on flesh when he comes to indwell you and I when we believe upon the Son (1Jn 4:13). All three provide to sinful man the same salvation, all three provide the same redemption and all three reveal that there is one God. We learn of these things in the conversation that Christ had with the disciples and with his Father, who is in heaven, in John chapters 14-17. These things are irrefutable whether you believe in the doctrine of oneness or the doctrine of the trinity.

There is submission within the Godhead and that submission reveals the nature and foundational substance of their oneness. They have specific roles and functions within the plan and will of God but those functions reveal one God that is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. There is no disputing or overruling in the Godhead because they all rule as one but they have order ). All three were involved with the plan of redemption, the execution of that plan and how that plan was to be revealed to the heart of man. All three were involved in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. The Father spoke the Word, it became flesh as the only begotten of the Father and the Holy Spirit was sent into our hearts to reveal the Son and his words crying 'Abba Father' (Gal 4:6). The Son recognized the Father, the Spirit recognized the Father and teaches us to do the same and the Father sent both the Son and the Spirit. One heavenly Father, one begotten Son, one Holy Spirit, one body of Christ and one faith. All having the same love and declaring that there is one God that is above all, through all and in you all (Eph 4:6).

Call the Godhead a Trinity (one God of three persons) or Oneness (one God that is revealed by the manifestation of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit). Either way there are three parts that make up the Godhead and all three agree and all three are one. If someone wants to believe that Jesus is the Father, let them, because they are one after all. Whether they baptize in the name of Jesus or in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, there is only one God that they are baptizing in and only one God that died for them, only one God that saved them by grace and only one God that they will return to in heaven. Each one acknowledges that Jesus Christ is their Saviour and Lord. Some will baptize in the name of Jesus, some will baptize in the name of the trinity and those that have been baptized either way have put off the old man and put on the new and we are thankful. Will I also be accused of being a heretic?

According to previous posts by Phil, I really do think he'll call you a heretic. If I remember correctly he called VW as much for taking the same position. If you read back a few pages you'll find where I commented on how Oneness believers aren't condemning Trinitarians for their beliefs, just disagreeing. Several of the Trinitarians on this thread (Phil, David, and perhaps others), however, have said that I am not saved because I don't think there are three persons but rather three manifestations.
I'm with you that this is one of those points about which we should be able to disagree without being at each other's throats and saying people are going to hell. It isn't as if anyone here is promoting licentiousness or denying that Jesus is God in the flesh.
Thank you for being willing to consider me a brother in Christ just as I consider you, in spite of our differences. We have more upon which we agree than disagree, and the most important of all:
Jesus Christ is Lord, and only in and through Him is there any hope of salvation.