If homosexuality is a sin, then why didn't Jesus say anything about it?

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

On the contrary, Jesus addresses it in Matthew 19:12. In rabbinic Judaism the expression "eunuchs from birth" refers to men who, for whatever reason lack a natural attraction to women. This group of men includes gays. Jesus implies that the homosexual sex orientation is OK: "Let him receive who will." But of course Jesus would acknowledge the OT's condemnation of gay sex acts.

This is hilarious how post modern thought tries to deconstruct bibllcal truth to try to normalize homosexuality. The context of Matthew 19:12 was marriage. Some men were "eunuchs from birth" because they were born with physical deformities that made it impossible for them to sire children, which was the purpose for marriage in that culture.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This is hilarious how post modern thought tries to deconstruct bibllcal truth to try to normalize homosexuality. The context of Matthew 19:12 was marriage. Some men were "eunuchs from birth" because they were born with physical deformities that made it impossible for them to sire children, which was the purpose for marriage in that culture.

To show how important having a functioning male sex organ was in ancient Israel, those who couldn't procreate were not allowed to be a part of the congregation of Israel. Until the grace of Christ, their name was essentially persona non grata.

One with crushed testicles or castrated shall not enter into the assembly of the LORD. Deuteronomy 23:1​

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Prophesied grace

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Let not the stranger who attaches himself to the Lord, say, Surely the Lord will separate me from his people: and let not the eunuch say, I am a dry tree. Thus saith the Lord to the eunuchs, as many as shall keep my sabbaths, and choose the things which I take pleasure in, and take hold of my covenant; I will give to them in my house and within my walls an honourable place, better than sons and daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, and it shall not fail. Isaiah 56:3-5​

 

[Slayer]

Calibob-
"Is as bad as" ? It is my understanding any and all sin , even just one, is enough to condemn a person.

I think you forgot to put "unsaved" in front of person above. Yes one sin is enough to condemn an unsaved person but a saved person can commit millions of sins and not lose his salvation, as long as he repents.

 

[Ahwatukee]

On the contrary, Jesus addresses it in Matthew 19:12. In rabbinic Judaism the expression "eunuchs from birth" refers to men who, for whatever reason lack a natural attraction to women. This group of men includes gays. Jesus implies that the homosexual sex orientation is OK: "Let him receive who will." But of course Jesus would acknowledge the OT's condemnation of gay sex acts.

MadHermit,

Matt.19:12 regarding eunuchs has nothing to do with homosexuality. Let's look at the definition of the word:

Strong's Concordance
eunouchos: a eunuch
Original Word: εὐνοῦχος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: eunouchos
Phonetic Spelling: (yoo-noo'-khos)
Short Definition: a eunuch, keeper of the bed-chamber
Definition: (a) a chamberlain, keeper of the bed-chamber of an eastern potentate, eunuch, (b) a eunuch, castrated person, or one who voluntarily abstains from marriage.

HELPS Word-studies
2135 eunoúxos – properly, "alone in bed" (i.e. without a marriage partner) – literally, a castrated (emasculated) man; a eunuch; " 'a chamberlain, keeper of the bed-chamber' of an Eastern potentate, 'a eunuch' " (Souter); (figuratively) someone who abstains from marriage (sexual relations) to be solely devoted to God – as in Mt 19:12 where 2135 (eunoúxos) refers to someone who voluntarily chooses a life of sexual abstinence (see also LXX: Est 2:14,15; Is 56:3,4).

Here is the context of what was being said:

"And I say to you that whoever shall divorce his wife except for sexual immorality, and shall marry another, commits adultery."

As you can see in Matt.19:9, the teaching is regarding those who would divorce his wives, which is in the feminine, referring to women and does not include homosexuals. To this the disciples reply to Jesus with the following:

"His disciples say to Him, "If this is the case of the man with the wife, it is better not to marry."

Again, the context is referring to marriage between a man and wife, masculine, feminine. Then Jesus says the following:

"And He said to them, "Not all receive this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born that way; others were made that way by men; and still others live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

In other words, some men were born eunuchs and others were made eunuchs by men, i.e. they were castrated. Others become eunuchs by their own admission, i.e. abstain from sex for the sake of the kingdom of God.

Being a eunuch has nothing to do with "men who, for whatever reason lack a natural attraction to women." It is done by force by other men or is a willful decision by the individual. That said, Jesus was not condoning homosexuality. The following is what God has to say regarding those who willfully continue living a same-sex life style:

"In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire." Jude 7

You have presented a false teaching by implying that Jesus said "homosexual sex orientation is OK." You have misrepresented God. Study the definition of the word eunuch above and look at the context of what Jesus and His disciples were talking about in order to have a clear understanding that this issue was about men divorcing their wives.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yes, I know understand completely (I believe and always defend the finished work of the cross) what you are saying and agree.

Although I do think there are people who are born again believers who did not receive proper training in the faith and somehow have let themselves be convinced that there are some parts of the law that they still must keep or some type of work.

Now having known one such person who joined a messianic type church did leave, but he almost had to be reprogrammed, it was like having been involved in a cult.

Having listened to his testimony it really cemented for me the need to guard our hearts and minds and flee from false teachers.

Thanks!

Yes, unfortunately we have many false teachers in the world today, which is also sign of the end times:

"For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. - 2 Tim.4:3

To put it into perspective for today, those teachers are YouTube, books written by men, seminars, websites, hearsay and the like. This is where they are getting their information from and labeling it as the being the truth. Our source of truth should be the word of God. If anyone is teaching contrary to this, then it should be thrown out as false teachings.

I caught a pastor on tv teaching the need to keep the Sabbath on Saturday as a requirement for salvation. Others include the keeping of the ten commandments and the abstaining from certain foods, etc. Now, if anyone wants to observe a specific day in worship of the Lord, they can do so. As scripture says, "One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind." It is when a person makes a specific day as a requirement for salvation and teaches this or any other requirement, that salvation becomes work-based. Those who do this will be looking forward to taking credit for doing those things as actions that aided in their salvation. Jesus wrote about those who trust in their own efforts opposed to trusting in His finished work on the cross:

"Not everyone saying to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father in the heavens. Many will say to Me in that the day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare unto them, ‘I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness.’ "

The key to understanding what Jesus is saying is highlighted in red above. For those who will not be able to enter into the kingdom of God, their own response reveals what they have been trusting in for their salvation when they say "did we not." No one will enter the kingdom of God by trusting in their own works, which is what those in the example above are portrayed as doing: "did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons and in Your name perform many miracles?" They will have been trusting in their own works for salvation by performing those things. It is example for all who are trusting in anything other than the shed blood of Christ for their salvation. As soon as a person starts adding his own requirements for salvation along side of Christ's sacrifice, then that person is trusting in his own works. In the scripture above, the will of the Father is for us to believe in His Son. Trusting in their own efforts is not trusting in His Son and they are therefore still in their sins, which is why Jesus will say, "I never knew you; depart from Me you workers of lawlessness."

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes, unfortunately we have many false teachers in the world today, which is also sign of the end times:

"For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. - 2 Tim.4:3

To put it into perspective for today, those teachers are YouTube, books written by men, seminars, websites, hearsay and the like. This is where they are getting their information from and labeling it as the being the truth. Our source of truth should be the word of God. If anyone is teaching contrary to this, then it should be thrown out as false teachings.

I caught a pastor on tv teaching the need to keep the Sabbath on Saturday as a requirement for salvation. Others include the keeping of the ten commandments and the abstaining from certain foods, etc. Now, if anyone wants to observe a specific day in worship of the Lord, they can do so. As scripture says, "One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind." It is when a person makes a specific day as a requirement for salvation and teaches this or any other requirement, that salvation becomes work-based. Those who do this will be looking forward to taking credit for doing those things as actions that aided in their salvation. Jesus wrote about those who trust in their own efforts opposed to trusting in His finished work on the cross:

"Not everyone saying to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father in the heavens. Many will say to Me in that the day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare unto them, ‘I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness.’ "

The key to understanding what Jesus is saying is highlighted in red above. For those who will not be able to enter into the kingdom of God, their own response reveals what they have been trusting in for their salvation when they say "did we not." No one will enter the kingdom of God by trusting in their own works, which is what those in the example above are portrayed as doing: "did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons and in Your name perform many miracles?" They will have been trusting in their own works for salvation by performing those things. It is example for all who are trusting in anything other than the shed blood of Christ for their salvation. As soon as a person starts adding his own requirements for salvation along side of Christ's sacrifice, then that person is trusting in his own works. In the scripture above, the will of the Father is for us to believe in His Son. Trusting in their own efforts is not trusting in His Son and they are therefore still in their sins, which is why Jesus will say, "I never knew you; depart from Me you workers of lawlessness."

Yes I see, WOW, I have read that passage many times but never drew my attention to those three words did we not, my attention was always drawn to "I never knew you"

That is truly how it is, many of the posts even on the discussion board are about works to attain or maintain salvation.

I sincerely hope some other people read this post.

 

[MadHermit]

This is hilarious how post modern thought tries to deconstruct bibllcal truth to try to normalize homosexuality. The context of Matthew 19:12 was marriage. Some men were "eunuchs from birth" because they were born with physical deformities that made it impossible for them to sire children, which was the purpose for marriage in that culture.

You don't grasp how modern Bible scholarship determines the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words. They derive their meaning from their use and application in their cultural context. In that sense, there is no precedent for the application you propose; and my application to the gay orientation is quite a standard interpretation in scholarly circles. So wake up and smell the coffee!

 

[UnderGrace]

You don't grasp how modern Bible scholarship determines the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words. They derive their meaning from their use and application in their cultural context. In that sense, there is no precedent for the application you propose; and my application to the gay orientation is quite a standard interpretation in scholarly circles. So wake up and smell the coffee!

It is not within the cultural context of Greek society that Jesus is speaking from, it is from within Hebrew society and their laws.
When Jesus states "born that way from the mothers womb" it is a physical deformity.
No one needs coffee to understand the context of the passage is about marriage and divorce none of which pertains to sexual orientation and marriage and divorce within that culture since it did not exist.

 

[MadHermit]

It is not within the cultural context of Greek society that Jesus is speaking from, it is from within Hebrew society and their laws.

When Jesus states "born that way from the mothers womb" it is a physical deformity.
No one needs coffee to understand the context of the passage is about marriage and divorce none of which pertains to sexual orientation and marriage and divorce within that culture since it did not exist.

You must learn to read more carefully. First, I cited rabbinic Judaism, not Greek culture, as my source.
Second, every New Testament scholar knows that Palestine was permeated by the Greek language and culture in Jesus' day as a result of Alexander the Great's conquest of Palestine in 323 BC

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You don't grasp how modern Bible scholarship determines the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words. They derive their meaning from their use and application in their cultural context. In that sense, there is no precedent for the application you propose; and my application to the gay orientation is quite a standard interpretation in scholarly circles. So wake up and smell the coffee!

You can't produce any rabbinic opinions that state what you're claiming. The gay orientation thing is probably standard among gay and progressive scholars trying to push that agenda, but not any with good sense or spiritual integrity.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The other likely possibility of what a "eunuch from the mother's womb" meant was impotent men. The Talmud calls them eunuchs-by-nature, and eunuchs of the sun.

"There is a potential ambiguity in the use of the English phrase "by nature" in this context. "By nature" can mean two different things: "by constitution or essence," or "because of the actions of nature or random fate." In the Talmud, the term contrasted against the man-made eunuch [saris adam] is literally "eunuch of the sun" [saris chammah], with the implication being that the "eunuch of the sun" has been that way since the sun first shone upon him. That is the interpretation given by the Soncino edition of Yebamoth.​

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"For the Amoraim rabbis who composed the Gemara, or commentative, sections of Yebamoth, the identification of a "eunuch of the sun" presented a problem. It is interesting that in their musings as to possible means of identifying a "eunuch of the sun," none of the rabbis suggested looking for defects in the reproductive organs. Instead, they looked for absence of pubic hair at the age of twenty (expressly one of the signs of puberty in Roman law), absence of froth in urine, watery semen, urine which does not ferment, absence of steam from the body after a winter bath, and finally a voice which is so abnormal that one cannot distinguish whether it is that of a man or a woman. Many of these characteristics, if not all, seem to reflect an Aristotelian coolness in the eunuch's body.​

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"This interesting hypothesis is complicated by what the rabbis said was the cause of natural eunuchism, namely that during pregnancy the natural eunuch's mother drank strong beer and baked bread at noon. In other words, it was an excess of heat during gestation that caused the eunuchism. Perhaps this also explains the term "eunuch of the sun." Maybe the eunuch is like a burned-out light bulb, which never gets hot again. In any case, if the "eunuch of the sun" were a eunuch in our modern sense of the term, perhaps because of an anatomical birth defect, it would not be necessary to resort to such obscure tests in order to identify him."​

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https://people.well.com/user/aquarius/cardiff.htm​

 

[jameen]

Jesus addressed many issues and many sins and, yet, he never said a thing about this topic.

But Jesus said about homosexuality through the preaching of Apostle Paul

Galatians 1:11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not man’s gospel.

1:12 For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

These are the statements of Jesus through Paul about homosexuality:

1 Cor. 6: 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.

27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

 

[UnderGrace]

You must learn to read more carefully. First, I cited rabbinic Judaism, not Greek culture, as my source.
Second, every New Testament scholar knows that Palestine was permeated by the Greek language and culture in Jesus' day as a result of Alexander the Great's conquest of Palestine in 323 BC

So you are saying because we know of the influence of Greek culture post Alexander the Great's conquest we can now redefine words from the their true etymology and meaning?

I would suggest you do a thorough, exhaustive inductive study of this new found theory against all Classical, New Testament, and Patristic Greek lexicographers and you will learn that the word eunuch without question refers to a male person's lacking ability to sire children, whether through castration, congential defect (as Jesus speaks to in Matthew 19:12) or by accident.

In this research of yours you will learn that eunuch (eunouchos) is not used to refer to someone with intact sexual organs.

It would also be good to note that other words of Greek origin like hermaphrodyte, androgyne, are not listed for the term "eunuch" in the lexicons.

Your cultural argument does not hold well either since the Roman satirist Juvenal clearly distinguishes homosexual men from eunuchs in his poems from antiquity.







Context: Jesus was asked about marriage and divorce.

 

[Endoscopy]

there is a difference between the word profit and the word prophecies.

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and the prophets. If he intended to come to fulfill all prophecies, then he failed.

but Jesus did fulfill the law and the prophets, which is what he came to do!

He fulfilled all of the 318 prophecies made about the Messiah.

 

[Bladerunner]

He did and so did GOD (the Father ) in the OT.

Blade

Try reading post #27 carefully....

Blade

 

[Blanche]

I think you forgot to put "unsaved" in front of person above. Yes one sin is enough to condemn an unsaved person but a saved person can commit millions of sins and not lose his salvation, as long as he repents

How convenient this is. So, a man who lives a life killing and raping women, is jailed, miraculously converts, and just before his execution, he says "Lord,, forgive me", and he is Saved. It simply does not make sense.

Being saved is a life-long process, not some one time event/prayer/ or declaration (yes, I know many here believe that). I do not. I think it is rather what we did all our lives from beginning to end that counts ... a kind of weighing of the scales. Example: a serial killer has demonstrated that he is without conscience so I highly suspect his deathbed "repentace". It is more than words owe or the right beliefs. It is who we are and what we do "overall" in this life that will matter. Otherwise, people can just use grace as an excuse and sin and then say "oh I am so sorry". I will stop ... until he does it again.

 

[Dino246]

How convenient this is. So, a man who lives a life killing and raping women, is jailed, miraculously converts, and just before his execution, he says "Lord,, forgive me", and he is Saved. It simply does not make sense.

Being saved is a life-long process, not some one time event/prayer/ or declaration (yes, I know many here believe that). I do not. I think it is rather what we did all our lives from beginning to end that counts ... a kind of weighing of the scales. Example: a serial killer has demonstrated that he is without conscience so I highly suspect his deathbed "repentace". It is more than words owe or the right beliefs. It is who we are and what we do "overall" in this life that will matter. Otherwise, people can just use grace as an excuse and sin and then say "oh I am so sorry". I will stop ... until he does it again.

Your response demonstrates a distorted understanding of repentance, of the means of salvation, and of the mercy of God. It also conflates salvation with sanctification.

Repentance is not simply saying "Sorry, I will stop" or even, "Lord forgive me". God knows the heart.

Salvation is attained (on our part) by faith in the person and finished work of Jesus Christ, not on the avoidance of sin.

God desires that all men and women would truly repent and turn to Him. Both the parable of the field workers and the thief on the cross testify that mercy is rendered essentially instantly.

Sanctification is a lifelong process; we are continuously being transformed. If salvation were a lifelong process, none of us could consider ourselves saved, and such verses as Colossians 1:13 would be meaningless.

 

[Slayer]

How convenient this is. So, a man who lives a life killing and raping women, is jailed, miraculously converts, and just before his execution, he says "Lord,, forgive me", and he is Saved. It simply does not make sense.

Being saved is a life-long process, not some one time event/prayer/ or declaration (yes, I know many here believe that). I do not. I think it is rather what we did all our lives from beginning to end that counts ... a kind of weighing of the scales. Example: a serial killer has demonstrated that he is without conscience so I highly suspect his deathbed "repentace". It is more than words owe or the right beliefs. It is who we are and what we do "overall" in this life that will matter. Otherwise, people can just use grace as an excuse and sin and then say "oh I am so sorry". I will stop ... until he does it again.

Gods people receive 2 gifts, the first is salvation. Then the second will be received in the next life, Christ will reward every man according to his works.

The gift of salvation has nothing to do with the reward we receive when we enter heaven. Salvation just means we won't go to hell, the reward that Christ gives us is according to the works we did while here on earth.

The bible tells us we will all receive different rewards, those who done great things for the Lord will receive great rewards and those who done small things will receive small rewards.

So don't worry, nobody is getting away with sinning. The more the saved Christian sins, the smaller his reward will be in heaven. Jesus will reward us a hundredfold, so the Christian who allows himself to indulge in much sin will still receive a reward but it will be small and he will regret every single sin. He will look at those who were more faithful and fruitful, and see their reward and he will be grieved for missing out on the greater rewards.

So don't worry, nobody gets away with anything. If you're striving to live a sacrificial life, keep it up. You will be blessed with many great rewards, so keep it up.

 

[UnderGrace]

How convenient this is. So, a man who lives a life killing and raping women, is jailed, miraculously converts, and just before his execution, he says "Lord,, forgive me", and he is Saved. It simply does not make sense.

Being saved is a life-long process, not some one time event/prayer/ or declaration (yes, I know many here believe that). I do not. I think it is rather what we did all our lives from beginning to end that counts ... a kind of weighing of the scales. Example: a serial killer has demonstrated that he is without conscience so I highly suspect his deathbed "repentace". It is more than words owe or the right beliefs. It is who we are and what we do "overall" in this life that will matter. Otherwise, people can just use grace as an excuse and sin and then say "oh I am so sorry". I will stop ... until he does it again.

What we do is not the focus, it is what Jesus did. You will never be good enough to earn eternal life.
All our righteousness are as filthy rags. Even those most heinous criminal can be forgiven.

The Gospel is about personally believing/ agreeing and accepting that we can never be good enough to merit eternal life (or bad enough to be disqualified) and accepting the debt payment for sin completed by Jesus by his death and resurrection. It is Jesus that saves, He is the object of our faith.

Grace opposes sin.

Is there a sin Jesus did not die for?

 

[Blanche]

What we do is not the focus, it is what Jesus did. You will never be good enough to earn eternal life.
All our righteousness are as filthy rags. Even those most heinous criminal can be forgiven.
The Gospel is about personally believing/ agreeing and accepting that we can never be good enough to merit eternal life (or bad enough to be disqualified) and accepting the debt payment for sin completed by Jesus by his death and resurrection. It is Jesus that saves, He is the object of our faith.
Grace opposes sin.
Is there a sin Jesus did not die for?

Yes. I understand your belief system, as I said. I was not taught that we are born bad and cannot do good. Jesus died because the powers th