Trinity vs. Oneness

[phil36]

dear phil:

could you address how it is you brand as heretics others who are attempting to understand the GodHead while at the same time you promote Mars Hill Church?

did you know for example, that a female speaker at Mars Hill Church claims the Holy Spirit is female?

does this line up with your understanding of the Triune God?

there's so much information out there on THE NEW POST-MODERN CHRISTIANITY i won't begin to try to sort it out here, since they themselves believe there is NO ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

aside from the mystery of the GodHead, does your theology line up with the likes of Brian McLaren, Mark Driscoll, Rob Bell, etc?

thanks
zone

Quotes from Rob Bell's book Velvet Elvis​

Inspiration and Hermeneutics​

"The Bible is a collection of stories that teach us about what it looks like when God is at work through actual people. The Bible has the authority it does only because it contains stories about people interacting with the God who has all authority." - p. 65​

Sola Scriptura​

"...it wasn't until the 300s that what we know as the sixty-six books of the Bible were actually agreed upon as the 'Bible'. This is part of the problem with continually insisting that one of the absolutes of the Christian faith must be a belief that "Scripture alone" is our guide. It sounds nice, but it is not true. In reaction to abuses by the church, a group of believers during a time called the Reformation claimed that we only need the authority of the Bible. But the problem is that we got the Bible from the church voting on what the Bible even is. So when I affirm the Bible as God's word, in the same breath I have to affirm that when those people voted, God was somehow present, guiding them to do what they did. When people say that all we need is the Bible, it is simply not true. In affirming the Bible as inspired, I also have to affirm the Spirit who I believe was inspiring those people to choose those books." - p. 68​

Heaven and Hell​

"Heaven is full of forgiven people. Hell is full of forgiven people. Heaven is full of people God loves, whom Jesus died for. Hell is full of forgiven people God loves, whom Jesus died for. The difference is how we choose to live, which story we choose to live in, which version of reality we trust. Ours or God's." - p. 146​

"When people use the word hell, what do they mean? They mean a place, an event, a situation absent of how God desires things to be. Famine, debt, oppression, loneliness, despair, death, slaughter--they are all hell on earth. Jesus' desire for his followers is that they live in such a way that they bring heaven to earth. What's disturbing is when people talk more about hell after this life than they do about Hell here and now. As a Christian, I want to do what I can to resist hell coming to earth." - p. 148​

"The goal of Jesus isn't to get into heaven. The goal is to get heaven here." - p. 148​

The Fall​

"I can't find one place in the teachings of Jesus, or the Bible for that matter, where we are to identify ourselves first and foremost as sinners. Now this doesn't mean we don't sin; that's obvious. In the book of James it's written like this: 'We all stumble in many ways.' Once again, the greatest truth of the story of Adam and Eve isn't that it happened, but that it happens. We all make choices to live outside of how God created us to live. We have all come up short." - p. 139​

Ultimate Reality

"For a Christian, Jesus' teachings aren't to be followed because they are a nice way to live a moral life. They are to be followed because they are the possible insight into how the world really works. They teach us how things are. I don't follow Jesus because I think Christianity is the best religion. I follow Jesus because he leads me into ultimate reality. He teaches me to live in tune with how reality is. When Jesus said, 'No one comes to the Father except through me', he was saying that his way, his words, his life is our connection to how things truly are at the deepest levels of existence. For Jesus then, the point of religion is to help us connect with ultimate reality, God." - p. 83

Bell, Rob. Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith. Zondervan, 2005. ISBN 978-0310263456

Bell, Rob. Sex God: Exploring the Endless Connections between Sexuality and Spirituality. Zondervan, 2007. ISBN 978-0310280675​

Bell, Rob. Jesus Wants to Save Christians: A Manifesto for the Church in Exile. Zondervan, 2008. ISBN 978-0310275022​

Emerging church

Creative and rediscovered spirituality

This can involve everything from expressive, neocharismatic style of worship and the use of contemporary music and films to more ancient liturgical customs and eclectic expressions of spirituality, with the goal of making the church gathering reflect the local community's tastes.
Emerging church practitioners are happy to take elements of worship from a wide variety of historic traditions, including traditions of the Catholic Church, the Anglican churches, the Orthodox churches, and Celtic Christianity. From these and other religious traditions emerging church groups take, adapt and blend various historic church practices including liturgy, prayer beads, icons, spiritual direction, the labyrinth, and lectio divina. The Emerging Church is also sometimes called the "Ancient-Future" church.[56]
One of the key social drives in Western Post-industrialised countries, is the rise in new/old forms of mysticism.[57][58] This rise in spirituality appears to be driven by the effects of consumerism, globalisation and advances in information technology.[59] Therefore, the Emerging Church is operating in a new context of postmodern spirituality, as a new form of mysticism. This capitalizes on the social shift in starting assumptions from the situation that most are regarded as materialist/atheist (the modern position), to the fact that many people now believe in and are searching for something more spiritual (postmodern view). This has been characterised as a major shift from religion to spirituality.[60]
So, in the new world of 'spiritual tourism', the Emerging Church Movement is seeking to missionally assist people to shift from being spiritual tourists to Christian pilgrims. Many are drawing on ancient Christian resources recontextualised into the contemporary such as contemplation and contemplative forms of prayer, symbolic mutli-sensory worship, story telling and many others.[61] This again has required a change in focus as the majority of unchurched and dechurched people are seeking 'something that works' rather than something that is 'true'.[62]

Hi Zone,

For your information, Marshill church in SEATTLE, has nothing to do, with ROB BELLS Marshill Church. And I can assure you, At MARSHILL CHURCH SEATTLE there will be no one saying that the Holy Spirit as Female, For Mark Driscoll the senior Pastor has already spoken against this when talking a bout a very popu;ar book 'the Shack'!

I think you are confusing with 'EMERGING and EMERGENT' Driscoll is not in the Mcclaren or Bell Camp!

So please could you supply me with the details of MARSHILL CHURCH SEATTLE teaching the Holy Spirit is female, I am not talking about ROB BElls church wich is also called Marshill, because the 2 have nothing to do with each other, and a more informed reader would know this.

Just for information, MARSHILL church SEATTLE, are Reformed (charismatic) Baptists, not liberals like Bell and McClaren.

Anyhow I am definatly interested in your proof on Marshill church Seattle teaching the Holyspirit is Female, it may change my views. you can check youtube, do a search for Mark Drsicoll on the 'Shack', it may inform you?

Blessings

Phil

Thank you zone and I await your reply.

P>S,

I have read bell's @Velvet Elvis and Sex:God' I am very fluent in what he believes. I have also read McClaren!

 

[mpaper345]

As far as the Roman Catholic Church being the Babylonian mystery religion,as far as Mystery Babylon in Revelation,only time will tell,and I will not say it is,but here are some facts that cannot be denied.

Mystery Babylon,is the mother of all harlots of the world,which means she is the head of all the religions of the world unified as one,and they will have christianity and islam as part of it,but according to an occult interpretation.All religions will be unified as one with an occult interpretation of ones that do not already have that interpretation,and all fundamental beliefs,not having their core occult interpretation,will be not recognized.

The Vatican is saying that all religions have a core truth,and can have salvation,as long as they strive for the kingdom of God on earth,which the Vatican would like to bring all religions together,which the Pope and Vatican would like to be the head of it,which would be common sense,since the Pope says he is the head of the Church,so of course he would believe he would be the head of all religions.

If this is the case of the Vatican wanting to unify all religions,and Mystery Babylon is a unifying of all religions,if it is not the Vatican and the Pope,then who else could Mystery Babylon be.

Not to say anything bad against Catholics but it could be the Vatican was infiltrated by people to change her from within,and elect the Pope of their choosing to unify the religions,and some Catholics believe the last 2 Popes are straying away from fundamental beliefs.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Very well stated Phil. Your posts here sums up the situation perfectly. I would add that when well-meaning Christians work to oppress and persecute authentic Christians from correcting the heresy of false teachers they are themselves partnering with the false teachers in a manner reminiscent of Paul's instruction to Timothy not to invest one with a holy office who was a wicked man or a heretic, for this would be to sanction his wickedness and error and make Timothy a patron of the sin and heresy.

Just as there was no emotion or reason that excused Timothy to lay hands on a heretic, there is no emotion or reason that warrants persecuting Christians from exercising their spiritual gift of discernment which is useful in differentiating between truth and error revealing whether a behavior or teaching is from God, Satan, or the human(s) involved. Reference: Matthew 16:21-23; Acts 5:1-11; 16:16-18; 17:11-16; 1 Corinthians 12:10; Hebrews 5:14; 1 John 4:1-6.

I agree Char, You have been nothing but courteous. The problem I see with consumeds posts are that although they talk about love, and sound right, they do nothing for correcting erroneous/heretical theology (proper ( who God is)). This actually, does a diservice to the truth of scripture rather than the opposite. It is not that we do not love those who hold these heretical views, it has more to do with the views being espoused and very hard attacks on truth. So is it love not to correct something that is heresy? No! Infact, it is misplaced love if you do not correct as the church has always done and more recently when the Assemblies of God kicked out those adherents of 'oneness'.

The facts are that the pentecostals regard the 'oneness group' as like a cult, the church (body of Christ) has always viewed 'oneness' as heresy. They do not originate with Apostolic teaching or authority even though they claim this ,for the heresy never arose until much later. Oneness adherents often get this confused, they say that the Trinity was not believed until a church council, however this is false, as the council would not have been needed if it had not been for heretical views and not just the oneness 'Monarchianism' heresy.

So yes we do love those who adhere to heresy as we love those who are in darkness, but, we should aslo be mindful of those who are not telling the truth especially about God.

Another point to take careful note of is, do we fellowship with those who confess to be in Christ yet clearly believe different? Paul warned about this, He was talking to a specific p[roblem in the Corinthian church, however, the principle is the same.. Lets remember, that the Assemblies of God (Pentecostals) broke from fellowship with oneness adherents' for this very fact.

We have to be careful not confuse love with correction out of love, sometimes a rebuke with the rod, like Paul had to!


Blessings

Phil

 

[Stephen63]

Hi,Y'all,
Just dropping a few lines for clarification. First, not every Pentecostal believes in oneness doctrine. Second, anyone refusing absolute proof of scripture is refusing the Author who inspired it. When such people reject plain scripture for their own beliefs, they become heretics. Such stubborn people are not to be fellowshipped with. Paul says not even to eat with them. Once they prove to be stubborn, dust off your feet, for your job is done. Go find someone else who will listen.

 

[distinctiveministry]

None of the examples that Paul gives in 1 Corinthians 5 of people with whom brothers and sisters are not to fellowship or even eat involves beliefs (right or wrong). Disfellowshipping is for those who willfully live in sin, and the list of examples clearly shows that "sin" means something other than false or mistaken beliefs.

 

[Frizzy]

The bible says there is a Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. Why do we have to complicate something the bible is clear on??? The Son doesnt do the will if the Son, he does the will of the Father. The three are equal and different. Case closed......

 

[VW]

When people try to make salvation a matter of correct doctrine, then salvation has become the domain of men, who decide what doctrines are correct. Salvation is of God, it is His domain, His doing, His work and His will. If someone has the Spirit of God, then they are a child of God. It really does not matter one whit what their doctrines are pertaining to their salvation, if they have the Spirit of God.

 

[Red33]

Everything that we understand concerning the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit comes from the testimony of the scriptures. We would not know the gospel of Christ without the testimony of the scriptures. The words that we have in the scriptures that others have testified concerning Christ are trustworthy because they had looked upon and had seen with their own eyes and lived and dwelt with Him. Their testimony is what we believe as to the truth concerning Christ and who He was as the Son of God. The Holy Spirit takes those testimonies and reveals them to our heart when we believe.

God's word has made it plain as to the Godhead, as Frizzy has said with confidence and good understanding. When we have that understanding within, through the testimony of the scriptures, the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we have the truth and there is no confusion or double-mindedness as to the Godhead or to what their function is in the plan and will of God.

 

[Behemoth]

JESUS NEVER ONCE CLAIMED TO BE GOD

If Jesus Christ was God, his own father, why didn't he come out and say so? Why would he come up with such a confusing doctrine known as the trinity? Both Old and new testaments are written as clear, historical documents. In all cases Jesus Christ speaks of his Father being his superior. Here are just a few scriptures, "As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father." (John 6:57) "My doctrine is not mine but his who sent me." (John 7:16) "For the Father judges no one, but committed all judgment to the SON." (John 5:22) "And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as my Father bestowed one upon me." (Luke 22:29) "All authority has been given to me in Heaven and on earth." (Matthew 28:18)


"DO NOT CLING TO ME, FOR I HAVE NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER, BUT GO TO MY BRETHREN AND SAY TO THEM, I AM ASCENDING TO MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER, AND TOMY GOD AND YOUR GOD."

JOHN 20:17

It just isn't complicated.


No Trinity.

 

[VW]

Everything that we understand concerning the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit comes from the testimony of the scriptures. We would not know the gospel of Christ without the testimony of the scriptures. The words that we have in the scriptures that others have testified concerning Christ are trustworthy because they had looked upon and had seen with their own eyes and lived and dwelt with Him. Their testimony is what we believe as to the truth concerning Christ and who He was as the Son of God. The Holy Spirit takes those testimonies and reveals them to our heart when we believe.

God's word has made it plain as to the Godhead, as Frizzy has said with confidence and good understanding. When we have that understanding within, through the testimony of the scriptures, the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we have the truth and there is no confusion or double-mindedness as to the Godhead or to what their function is in the plan and will of God.

You can be obtuse. I am sorry that the only testimony you have of God and His love is scripture. How sad.

 

[Red33]

I know that all Spirit-filled believers are thankful for the testimony of the scriptures that we have been given that witness to the Father, to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. They witness to the Father who planned it, to the Son who executed the plan and the Holy Spirit that reveals it to men's hearts, which are many. It took the function of the Godhead to make the plan of redemption effective for sinners who have fallen short of the glory of God. The greatness of the Godhead in the believer's life is that we have fellowship with the Father and the Son through the agency and ministry of the Holy Spirit that indwells us and teaches us how to worship God in our human spirit through the truth that we have received in our heart. I am thankful that the Holy Spirit is not obtuse and always honors the scriptures and magnifies the word in us, giving us the mind of Christ.

 

[kankunkid]

many people will say that in genesis or in paul the word was with god and the word became flesh and the word is god is enough to explain oneness, but but jesus only once said if you seen me then youve seen the father, now rthats a tricky one as well, but if he was praying to himself the whole time and if he was refering to a third person the whol time and if the voice of god said this is my son whom i am pleased with if i remember at his baptisim and his death, then wether john wrote the word was with god and the word became flesh and the word is god, then i feel that johns interpretation is what causes the debate.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Excellent post Red. This response is mature and shows both grace and truth.

I know that all Spirit-filled believers are thankful for the testimony of the scriptures that we have been given that witness to the Father, to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. They witness to the Father who planned it, to the Son who executed the plan and the Holy Spirit that reveals it to men's hearts, which are many. It took the function of the Godhead to make the plan of redemption effective for sinners who have fallen short of the glory of God. The greatness of the Godhead in the believer's life is that we have fellowship with the Father and the Son through the agency and ministry of the Holy Spirit that indwells us and teaches us how to worship God in our human spirit through the truth that we have received in our heart. I am thankful that the Holy Spirit is not obtuse and always honors the scriptures and magnifies the word in us, giving us the mind of Christ.

 

[VW]

Excellent post Red. This response is mature and shows both grace and truth.

Is it really?

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him.

The witness was never and is not now the scriptures. The witness is God. And oddly enough, that is grace.

 

[VW]

I know that all Spirit-filled believers are thankful for the testimony of the scriptures that we have been given that witness to the Father, to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. They witness to the Father who planned it, to the Son who executed the plan and the Holy Spirit that reveals it to men's hearts, which are many. It took the function of the Godhead to make the plan of redemption effective for sinners who have fallen short of the glory of God. The greatness of the Godhead in the believer's life is that we have fellowship with the Father and the Son through the agency and ministry of the Holy Spirit that indwells us and teaches us how to worship God in our human spirit through the truth that we have received in our heart. I am thankful that the Holy Spirit is not obtuse and always honors the scriptures and magnifies the word in us, giving us the mind of Christ.

The scriptures are just one of the witnesses of who Jesus is. The other being the works and the Spirit. In us, the witness of our salvation is the Spirit. If you have not the Spirit, then you are none of His.

Why do you not believe?

 

[Red33]

Every believer who has trusted Jesus Christ for their salvation understands that they have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as promised by the Son. The Father also bears witness to this by giving the believer a free gift of righteousness when they believe and never imputes a single sin to the believer. Jesus Christ is the one that deserves all the credit because it was the result of His sacrifice and the shedding of His blood that made it possible. The Holy Spirit testifies to this truth in the heart of the believer and seals the believer once and for all. Every truth has been established by Christ through His word, the Holy Spirit witnesses that all these things that have come through the Son are true and can be trusted by the believer as the truth.

1Tim 2:3-6
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man and the Holy Spirit confirms that within us through the truth of the scriptures. Jesus Christ is our go between and He is also our advocate that continually represents us to the Father. Thank God that we can go to Jesus Christ when we fail or sin and have Him represent us to the Father and also be our high priest that is making intercession for us.

 

[Crazy4GODword]

Colossians 1:15 "Christ is the visible image of the invisible GOD. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation"

Isaiah 44:22-24

 

[VW]

Two things with what you say. First, Jesus lives to intercede for those who are drawing near to Fod through Him.

Second, the witness is not the scripture, the witness is the Spirit. You say that the believer knows that he has the Spirit because of the testimony of the scriptures. But the truth of the scriptures is that we are to receive the Spirit. The fact is that the Spirit received is grace. You are holding on to a hope without receiving the promise.

Jesus asked once, "why can you not hear My words?" here we have the Son, God in the flesh, speaking if you will scripture, and the people could not hear Him. Were they deaf? Of course not. If they were deaf, and Jesus wanted them to hear His words, He would have just healed their deafness. No, He answered His own question, saying; "it is because you are not of My sheep."

Of course, they could not hear this either. They were dead, devoid of the Spirit who is life. He said that His sheep hear His voice.

You, and many others throughout Christianity, would have is believe that salvation is a matter of believing the bible. That if one only believes what is written in the bible, they will be saved. This is in grave error. That is like saying that if one believes in God, then they are saved. Yet it is written that even the demons believe, and are afraid. Are they saved?

This belief has become absolutely pervasive and all encompassing. And it is a lie. It is as much a lie as the first lie spoken on that day in the garden. "You will be like God, knowing good and evil.". "Surely, you shall not die."

The truth of salvation, the truth of scripture and the promise of eternal life, is that God sends His Spirit to life in us and through His Spirit He gives us life. Jesus made this possible, and our coming to Him in supplication and reverence to acknowledge Him as our personal Lord makes our receiving the Holy Spirit possible.

God has exalted the name of Jesus above all other names. There is no other name by which men might be saved. Salvation is in and through grace, in receiving the Spirit. And we cannot receive the Sporit but in the name of Jesus.

Jesus spoke of those who would try to come into the fold by some other way. Be careful that you not be found one of those

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

That is correct Red33.

Every believer who has trusted Jesus Christ for their salvation understands that they have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as promised by the Son. The Father also bears witness to this by giving the believer a free gift of righteousness when they believe and never imputes a single sin to the believer. Jesus Christ is the one that deserves all the credit because it was the result of His sacrifice and the shedding of His blood that made it possible. The Holy Spirit testifies to this truth in the heart of the believer and seals the believer once and for all. Every truth has been established by Christ through His word, the Holy Spirit witnesses that all these things that have come through the Son are true and can be trusted by the believer as the truth.

1Tim 2:3-6
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man and the Holy Spirit confirms that within us through the truth of the scriptures. Jesus Christ is our go between and He is also our advocate that continually represents us to the Father. Thank God that we can go to Jesus Christ when we fail or sin and have Him represent us to the Father and also be our high priest that is making intercession for us.

 

[Banister]

wouldnt be CC with one of these oneness v trinity threads going...though im honestly still unsure how its still active. you would think after near 40 pages with neither side budging people would just agree to disagree and move on to something else.