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How can claiming to be the only born Son of God not be saying He is divine? If I remember correctly, every time He mentioned anything at all about this, the Jews took up stones to stone Him. Why? Because in claiming God as His Father, He was claiming to be God!
Once, the people tried to impress Him by saying that they were of Abraham's seed. But Jesus blew them away by telling them that they were of their father, the devil. They did not take very kindly to this either.
Once, the people tried to impress Him by saying that they were of Abraham's seed. But Jesus blew them away by telling them that they were of their father, the devil. They did not take very kindly to this either.
I don't think there is anything at all I could say to help you. You are so far out in left field I can only think of all the Greek Philosophers that distorted God's word into something most complicated, instead of the simplicity of his actual meanings.
May the Holy Spirit of the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob one day guide you to the truth..
May the Holy Spirit of the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob one day guide you to the truth..
Hi VW
If you could provide the verses that show this.
These are the verses where Jesus pbuh stated he was not divine.
My Father is Greater than I.
The Bible, John 14:2
My Father is Greater than all.
The Bible, John 10:29
Jesus pbuh stating clearly that he is not equal to God. Goes against what the trinity states.
If you could provide the verses that show this.
These are the verses where Jesus pbuh stated he was not divine.
My Father is Greater than I.
The Bible, John 14:2
My Father is Greater than all.
The Bible, John 10:29
Jesus pbuh stating clearly that he is not equal to God. Goes against what the trinity states.
Is there a limit on what you can post ?
…I cast out devils by the spirit of God….
The Bible, Mathew 12:28
…I with the finger of God cast out devils….
The Bible, Luke 11:20
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge; and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father, which hath sent me.
The Bible, John 5:30
Jesus pbuh stating quite clearly that he serves the will of God and that everything he does is by the power of God. He himself has no power.
Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity for himself. He clearly announced the nature of his mission. Jesus (pbuh) was sent by God. His divinity was claimed by Paul.
In Michael H Hart’s book The 100 most influential person in history in his explanation why Jesus pbuh only came third, he stated;
Christian theology, however was shaped principally by work of St Paul. Jesus presented a spiritual message; Paul added to that the worship of Christ.
He later stated in his book that the reason why he did not rate Pauls’ influence higher than Jesus pbuh....
For these reasons, some people even contend that it is Paul, rather than Jesus, who should really be considered the founder of Christianity. Carried to its logical conclusion, that argment would lead one to place Paul higher on the list that Jesus! However although it is not clear what Christianity would be like without the influence of St Paul, it is apparent without Jesus, Christianity would not exist at all.
The major influence on Christians is Paul not Jesus pbuh.
…I cast out devils by the spirit of God….
The Bible, Mathew 12:28
…I with the finger of God cast out devils….
The Bible, Luke 11:20
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge; and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father, which hath sent me.
The Bible, John 5:30
Jesus pbuh stating quite clearly that he serves the will of God and that everything he does is by the power of God. He himself has no power.
Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity for himself. He clearly announced the nature of his mission. Jesus (pbuh) was sent by God. His divinity was claimed by Paul.
In Michael H Hart’s book The 100 most influential person in history in his explanation why Jesus pbuh only came third, he stated;
Christian theology, however was shaped principally by work of St Paul. Jesus presented a spiritual message; Paul added to that the worship of Christ.
He later stated in his book that the reason why he did not rate Pauls’ influence higher than Jesus pbuh....
For these reasons, some people even contend that it is Paul, rather than Jesus, who should really be considered the founder of Christianity. Carried to its logical conclusion, that argment would lead one to place Paul higher on the list that Jesus! However although it is not clear what Christianity would be like without the influence of St Paul, it is apparent without Jesus, Christianity would not exist at all.
The major influence on Christians is Paul not Jesus pbuh.
Hi blessedman
Happy for you to pray for me to the God of Abraham.
If you think I am out at left field you should be able to tell me why. I can tell you why I think you are out at left field.
Perhaps the distortion you speak of is the text that implies that Jesus is devine.
You can generally tell when the text in the bible has been tampered with. In some areas the gospel do not line up. Such as the last word of Jesus pbuh on the cross. Each gospel has a different accounts. Which is strange. The last words of anyone are usually imprinted in the minds of the people that are there.
Happy for you to pray for me to the God of Abraham.
If you think I am out at left field you should be able to tell me why. I can tell you why I think you are out at left field.
Perhaps the distortion you speak of is the text that implies that Jesus is devine.
You can generally tell when the text in the bible has been tampered with. In some areas the gospel do not line up. Such as the last word of Jesus pbuh on the cross. Each gospel has a different accounts. Which is strange. The last words of anyone are usually imprinted in the minds of the people that are there.
I
I don't know if this was intended for me, but how can what I say be more complicated than what you say? Nature teaches me that in order for ME to have a son, I need a wife, a woman, a female counterpart to produce offspring.
How is it simple to explain that God is three in one? How is simple to explain that these three are seperate yet one God? Or in your case, How do you explain two beings who are one God? Where's the simplicity in that? How can a son be as old as his father? By nature, even I can understand that none of my sons are as old as I am because I am their father. I was here when they came into the world.
How would you explain away the statement Jesus made concerning wisdom and her children? Do you accept it in its simplicity or entangle it in a web of complications as with this discussion of the trinity?
How is it simple to explain that God is three in one? How is simple to explain that these three are seperate yet one God? Or in your case, How do you explain two beings who are one God? Where's the simplicity in that? How can a son be as old as his father? By nature, even I can understand that none of my sons are as old as I am because I am their father. I was here when they came into the world.
How would you explain away the statement Jesus made concerning wisdom and her children? Do you accept it in its simplicity or entangle it in a web of complications as with this discussion of the trinity?
G
Greetings,
This answer is tri-fold, and addresses some of the things you brought to attention.
1.) Does John 14:28 describe the Father as being qualitatively greater than the Son? Does John 14:28 prove Jesus is some how lesser than God the Father? Does this prove that Jesus is not equal with the Father, or rather, that Jesus is not God? These are questions that are often raised in regards to John 14:28. And being as it is one of the most often cited verses against the Deity of Christ, I think this is a question that is well worth addressing. However, let’s ask ourselves what does this term "greater" mean? How is it used?
"You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." -- John 14:28
"You [Joseph] shall be over my [Pharaoh] house, and all my [Pharaoh] people shall order themselves as you [Joseph] command. Only as regards the throne will I [Pharaoh] be greater than you [Joseph].”
Pharaoh was "greater" than Joseph only by office or position, but not by nature. The nature of Pharaoh and Joseph were the same, that is, they are both human beings. Similarly, the president of the United States is "greater" than we are, as far as office or position is concerned, but certainly not by nature! Compare the usage of “meizon” (“greater”
in John 14:28 with the term “kreitton” (“better” in Hebrews 1:4. You’ll notice, “kreitton” is used as a descriptive term of quality. Christ was qualitatively better than the angels (Hebrews 1:4). Likewise, “meizon” is used to describe the Father being “greater” in terms of position. John 14:28 does not say that the Father is qualitatively better, or qualitatively greater than the Jesus. As Dr. Walter Martin wrote in regards to Christ, “Since His intrinsic Nature is that of deity (John 8:58, compare Colossians 2:9), therefore qualitatively He was God manifest in the flesh, while quantitatively speaking He was limited as a man and could in all truthfulness state 'My Father is greater than I.’”A great example of this is shown in John 13:16, a text often times cited by anti-Trinitarians, where, ironically, the same term ("meizon," "greater") is used. I say ironically, because John 13:16 is an excellent passage that can be used to portray that it is only by position/office that the Father is greater than the Son. Jesus uses the same word to describe His position of office. He says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him." A slave, in terms of office, is not positionally greater than his/her master. Likewise, the One sent is not greater than the One whom sent Him in terms of office/position. And it is in this sense that John 14:28 was understood by Origen, Jerome, Novatian, and Vigilius, who read the text thus: The Father, ὁ πεμψας, who sent me, is greater than I.
So grammatically, Jesus did not say that the Father was qualitatively greater. Likewise, contextual evidence supports this as well. For instance, John 13:16, which was cited above is apart of the same conversation being held in John 14. The conversation being held at John 13 does not end at v. 38, but carries forward into John 14. Notice the group of people Christ is speaking to in John 13, and the conversation being had. In John 14 He is speaking to the exact same group of people about the exact same topic of discussion -- "Where are you going, and why can't we follow?"
2.) In regards to John 10:29, which is an excellent text for discussion; however, you can't rip a sentence or passage from its surrounding context. You have to read it in its full context, not just rip out a few select words that tickles your fancy, and promotes your agenda.
“At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, ‘How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.’ Jesus answered them, ‘I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.’” – John 10:22-29
First I tought I would point out, since it seems to be fitting the overall discussion, the Greek word “hen,” translated in John 10:30 as “one,” is in the neuter gender, which expresses Jesus’ full unity of nature/essence, and equality of action/power with the Father. It does not mean that the Father, and Son are One in the sense of Persons, which would require the masculine form, rather than the neuter gender, "hen."
It is in this context that Christ makes a remarkable statement, “I and the Father are One” (John 10:30). He makes this statement immediately after saying, “My Father, who has given them to Me is greater than all.” Jesus is not asserting that He is the same Person as the Father; nor is He claiming unity in purpose or plan. In this context, He can only be asserting His unity with His Father as the author of eternal life and equal in power to Him who is 'greater than all.'"
The Father and Son are portrayed as One in giving eternal life, they are One in protecting the sheep, and they are One in the covenant of redemption. What creature would dare speak of themselves in such a way? Even more so, how do the Jews react after Christ had made such a claim? They pick up stones against Him for blasphemy (John 10:31-33)! Jesus makes the same kind of proclamation in John 10:34-38, where Christ argues from “lesser to greater,” and says, “If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father,” in which then tempts the Jews to seize after Him yet again (John 10:39).
3.) In a previous comment you made, you said that the Bible does not mention the word "Trinity," and you try to play it off as some commonly do. You argue that since the Bible does not mention the word "Trinity" then it obviously can't be true. However, there's a huge problem with this sort of thinking.
If one is to argue that the Doctrine of the Trinity can't be true, because the word "Trinity" is not mentioned, then clearly, you must also be consistent and argue that God can't be "omnipresent," "omnipotent," or "omniscient," for none of these words are mentioned either. I would also like to mention that the words "monotheism,"and "Bible" aren't mentioned in the Canon of Scripture, and so therefore, as to your logic, can't be true.
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G
Thought I would additionally add to my original comments, just a couple previous postings ago that you should also consider Philippians 2, which is what is known as the Carmen Christi, thought by many to be an ancient hymn of the Early Church.
The opening verses of Philippians 2 tell us to look out for our own personal interests, and not to regard our own selves with a higher esteem than another, but act with humility as Christ acted with humility before the Father, in that although, He existed in the form of God, He humbled Himself, and became a man for the sake of His own.
What does it mean to say that Christ existed in the "form of God" (v. 6)? The term "form" (morphe) identifies the outward appearance of an inward reality/substance. Which is why a number of translations render the term "morphe" as "nature," such as does the TEV ("He always had the nature of God") and the NIV ("Who, being in very nature God"). As my fellow brother in Christ, Michael Burgos, rightly argues, "The word morphe is utilized in various forms in the scriptures, notably in Romans 8:29, and 12:2. These two examples clearly indicate that a substantive form or essence is in view. When Paul states that Christians are 'predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son' we can safely assume that the Apostle is not suggesting we will look like the physical person of Christ. The form of God as mentioned in this text therefore, would indicate most certainly spirit form aesthetically and divinity essentially (John 8:58, 20:28). God the Father is a spirit, and does not have flesh (1John 4:2-3, John 4:24). Therefore, for Jesus to be in the 'form of God' cannot be indicative of His incarnate state."
The chapter continues,
He whom existed is the form of God, the very nature of God "did not regard equality [isa, isos] with God a thing to be grasped [harpagmos]."
There are two different views held on Philippians 2, but only one of these views fits the immediate context. As Dr. James White puts it,
The first view point argues that Jesus was not equal to the Father, and did not attempt to grasp at this equality. However, we must ask, is this an example of humility? Is someone who holds to an inferior position and whom does not seek to usurp the rights of their superior considered to be "humble"? Is one humble if they try not to usurp their superior? As White asks, "Can we look at the janitor at the White House, for example, and say, 'Oh my, what a humble man he is, for he did not today attempt to take over the President's job'"? This is not humility at all.
However, consider the second option, we have the eternal Word, the Son of God existing in the very nature of God, whom is co-equal with the Father. And out of great compassion, out of great love, out of great humility, He does not consider equality with God something to be retained, held on to; thus, He commits the greatest act of humility by taking on the form [morphe] of a bond-servant, and becoming a man.
That is humility, and that is what the chapter is teaching, to be as humble as the Lord is and was in that though He existed in the form of God, thought not equality with God a thing to be retained, in that He humbled Himself and took on the very nature of man. How lowly He became for the sake of His people, how humble indeed!
The opening verses of Philippians 2 tell us to look out for our own personal interests, and not to regard our own selves with a higher esteem than another, but act with humility as Christ acted with humility before the Father, in that although, He existed in the form of God, He humbled Himself, and became a man for the sake of His own.
What does it mean to say that Christ existed in the "form of God" (v. 6)? The term "form" (morphe) identifies the outward appearance of an inward reality/substance. Which is why a number of translations render the term "morphe" as "nature," such as does the TEV ("He always had the nature of God") and the NIV ("Who, being in very nature God"). As my fellow brother in Christ, Michael Burgos, rightly argues, "The word morphe is utilized in various forms in the scriptures, notably in Romans 8:29, and 12:2. These two examples clearly indicate that a substantive form or essence is in view. When Paul states that Christians are 'predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son' we can safely assume that the Apostle is not suggesting we will look like the physical person of Christ. The form of God as mentioned in this text therefore, would indicate most certainly spirit form aesthetically and divinity essentially (John 8:58, 20:28). God the Father is a spirit, and does not have flesh (1John 4:2-3, John 4:24). Therefore, for Jesus to be in the 'form of God' cannot be indicative of His incarnate state."
The chapter continues,
"...who, although He existed in the form [morphe] of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form [morphe] of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." (NASB)
There are two different views held on Philippians 2, but only one of these views fits the immediate context. As Dr. James White puts it,
"There are two basic understandings:
1.) Many liberal theologians, as well as groups that deny the deity of Christ, assert that here we have Paul saying that the Lord Jesus was not equal with the Father and did not give consideration to becoming equal with Him, but instead took on the form of a bond-servant to die upon the cross.
2.) The majority of conservative scholars and historically orthodox groups believe that Paul is teaching the eternal deity of Christ. The Lord Jesus, though equal with the Father, lays aside His privileges so as to die upon the cross."
1.) Many liberal theologians, as well as groups that deny the deity of Christ, assert that here we have Paul saying that the Lord Jesus was not equal with the Father and did not give consideration to becoming equal with Him, but instead took on the form of a bond-servant to die upon the cross.
2.) The majority of conservative scholars and historically orthodox groups believe that Paul is teaching the eternal deity of Christ. The Lord Jesus, though equal with the Father, lays aside His privileges so as to die upon the cross."
However, consider the second option, we have the eternal Word, the Son of God existing in the very nature of God, whom is co-equal with the Father. And out of great compassion, out of great love, out of great humility, He does not consider equality with God something to be retained, held on to; thus, He commits the greatest act of humility by taking on the form [morphe] of a bond-servant, and becoming a man.
That is humility, and that is what the chapter is teaching, to be as humble as the Lord is and was in that though He existed in the form of God, thought not equality with God a thing to be retained, in that He humbled Himself and took on the very nature of man. How lowly He became for the sake of His people, how humble indeed!
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Thanks for your reply GraceBeUponYou
You stated in your first point ( I hope this comes out)
1.) Does John 14:28 describe the Father as being qualitatively greater than the Son? Does John 14:28 prove Jesus is some how lesser than God the Father? Does this prove that Jesus is not equal with the Father, or rather, that Jesus is not God? These are questions that are often raised in regards to John 14:28. And being as it is one of the most often cited verses against the Deity of Christ, I think this is a question that is well worth addressing. However, let’s ask ourselves what does this term "greater" mean? How is it used?
"You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." -- John 14:28
The word "greater" refers to office or position, not nature or essence! God is God because of His nature (Galatians 4:8). John 14:28 tells us that the Father has a "greater" office or position than Christ does. This is how the word "greater" is used both contextually, and grammatically throughout the Gospel of John, and can easily clearly be seen in Genesis 41:40, which reads,
"You [Joseph] shall be over my [Pharaoh] house, and all my [Pharaoh] people shall order themselves as you [Joseph] command. Only as regards the throne will I [Pharaoh] be greater than you [Joseph].”
Pharaoh was "greater" than Joseph only by office or position, but not by nature. The nature of Pharaoh and Joseph were the same, that is, they are both human beings. Similarly, the president of the United States is "greater" than we are, as far as office or position is concerned, but certainly not by nature! Compare the usage of “meizon” (“greater” in John 14:28 with the term “kreitton” (“better” in Hebrews 1:4. You’ll notice, “kreitton” is used as a descriptive term of quality. Christ was qualitatively better than the angels (Hebrews 1:4). Likewise, “meizon” is used to describe the Father being “greater” in terms of position. John 14:28 does not say that the Father is qualitatively better, or qualitatively greater than the Jesus. As Dr. Walter Martin wrote in regards to Christ, “Since His intrinsic Nature is that of deity (John 8:58, compare Colossians 2:9), therefore qualitatively He was God manifest in the flesh, while quantitatively speaking He was limited as a man and could in all truthfulness state 'My Father is greater than I.’”
You stated that the Hebrew word greater in John 14:28 is the same Hebrew word greater in Genesis 41:40. This is not correct. The word used for greater in Genesis is eg
You stated in your first point ( I hope this comes out)
1.) Does John 14:28 describe the Father as being qualitatively greater than the Son? Does John 14:28 prove Jesus is some how lesser than God the Father? Does this prove that Jesus is not equal with the Father, or rather, that Jesus is not God? These are questions that are often raised in regards to John 14:28. And being as it is one of the most often cited verses against the Deity of Christ, I think this is a question that is well worth addressing. However, let’s ask ourselves what does this term "greater" mean? How is it used?
"You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." -- John 14:28
The word "greater" refers to office or position, not nature or essence! God is God because of His nature (Galatians 4:8). John 14:28 tells us that the Father has a "greater" office or position than Christ does. This is how the word "greater" is used both contextually, and grammatically throughout the Gospel of John, and can easily clearly be seen in Genesis 41:40, which reads,
"You [Joseph] shall be over my [Pharaoh] house, and all my [Pharaoh] people shall order themselves as you [Joseph] command. Only as regards the throne will I [Pharaoh] be greater than you [Joseph].”
Pharaoh was "greater" than Joseph only by office or position, but not by nature. The nature of Pharaoh and Joseph were the same, that is, they are both human beings. Similarly, the president of the United States is "greater" than we are, as far as office or position is concerned, but certainly not by nature! Compare the usage of “meizon” (“greater”
in John 14:28 with the term “kreitton” (“better” in Hebrews 1:4. You’ll notice, “kreitton” is used as a descriptive term of quality. Christ was qualitatively better than the angels (Hebrews 1:4). Likewise, “meizon” is used to describe the Father being “greater” in terms of position. John 14:28 does not say that the Father is qualitatively better, or qualitatively greater than the Jesus. As Dr. Walter Martin wrote in regards to Christ, “Since His intrinsic Nature is that of deity (John 8:58, compare Colossians 2:9), therefore qualitatively He was God manifest in the flesh, while quantitatively speaking He was limited as a man and could in all truthfulness state 'My Father is greater than I.’”You stated that the Hebrew word greater in John 14:28 is the same Hebrew word greater in Genesis 41:40. This is not correct. The word used for greater in Genesis is eg
OK the chat site is a bit temperamental. It does like apostraphies.
Let see how I go now.
You stated that the Hebrew word greater in John 14:28 is the same Hebrew word greater in Genesis 41:40. This is not correct. The word used for greater in Genesis is eg dal while in John it is meizōn.
The actual transaltion in Hebrew for eg dal is to grow up, be stronger.
The actual translation in Hebrew for Meizon is larger, older depending on the context of the sentence.
Biblos.com: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages
The Hebrew word for greater that is used in John 14:28 is also used in John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this that a man lay down his life for his friends
The context of greater in this verse is clear that it does not relate to station or office, it relates to being qualitatively greater.
The actual definition of Meizon and it use in John 15:13 does not support your argument. Jesus pbuh stated that God is qualitatively greater than he.
Let see how I go now.
You stated that the Hebrew word greater in John 14:28 is the same Hebrew word greater in Genesis 41:40. This is not correct. The word used for greater in Genesis is eg dal while in John it is meizōn.
The actual transaltion in Hebrew for eg dal is to grow up, be stronger.
The actual translation in Hebrew for Meizon is larger, older depending on the context of the sentence.
Biblos.com: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages
The Hebrew word for greater that is used in John 14:28 is also used in John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this that a man lay down his life for his friends
The context of greater in this verse is clear that it does not relate to station or office, it relates to being qualitatively greater.
The actual definition of Meizon and it use in John 15:13 does not support your argument. Jesus pbuh stated that God is qualitatively greater than he.
G
Again, it does not mean the Father is qualitatively greater, the exact word is used in John 13:16, which is in reference to position. John 13 is not a different context than that of John 14, they are apart of the exact same context, the exact same discussion. John 13, we have Peter asking Christ, "Lord, where are You going?" Christ replies, "Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later."
In John 14, we have the same conversation being held. We have Jesus speaking, "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. And you know the way where I am going." Again, one of the disciples, Thomas, asks, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?"
The entire conversation of John 13 is carried into John 14. John 13 uses the exact language as John 14. John 13:16, "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him." A master is not qualitatively greater than the servant, but in regards to position and office, the master is greater; likewise, John 14:24, we have Christ being sent by the Father, and in John 14:28, Christ saying "The Father is greater than I." There is absolutely no evidence that this points to the Father being qualitatively better.
In John 14, we have the same conversation being held. We have Jesus speaking, "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. And you know the way where I am going." Again, one of the disciples, Thomas, asks, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?"
The entire conversation of John 13 is carried into John 14. John 13 uses the exact language as John 14. John 13:16, "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him." A master is not qualitatively greater than the servant, but in regards to position and office, the master is greater; likewise, John 14:24, we have Christ being sent by the Father, and in John 14:28, Christ saying "The Father is greater than I." There is absolutely no evidence that this points to the Father being qualitatively better.
Concerning point 2 where
It is in this context that Christ makes a remarkable statement, “I and the Father are One” (John 10:30). He makes this statement immediately after saying, My Father, who has given them to Me is greater than all.” Jesus is not asserting that He is the same Person as the Father; nor is He claiming unity in purpose or plan. In this context, He can only be asserting His unity with His Father as the author of eternal life and equal in power to Him who is 'greater than all.
Below is from Jews for Judaism
Question: In John 10:30 Jesus says, “I and the Father are one [hen].Doesnt this show that they are one in essence?
This statement does not suggest either a dual or triune deity. What John’s Jesus meant by the word hen ("one") becomes clear from his prayer concerning the apostles:
“That they may be one [hen], just as we are one [hen]” (John 17:22),
which means that they should be united in agreement with one another as he (Jesus) is always united in agreement with God, as stated:
“I [Jesus] always do the things that are pleasing to Him [God]” (John 8:29).
There is thus no implication that Jesus and God, or the twelve apostles are to be considered as of one essence.
It is in this context that Christ makes a remarkable statement, “I and the Father are One” (John 10:30). He makes this statement immediately after saying, My Father, who has given them to Me is greater than all.” Jesus is not asserting that He is the same Person as the Father; nor is He claiming unity in purpose or plan. In this context, He can only be asserting His unity with His Father as the author of eternal life and equal in power to Him who is 'greater than all.
Below is from Jews for Judaism
Question: In John 10:30 Jesus says, “I and the Father are one [hen].Doesnt this show that they are one in essence?
This statement does not suggest either a dual or triune deity. What John’s Jesus meant by the word hen ("one") becomes clear from his prayer concerning the apostles:
“That they may be one [hen], just as we are one [hen]” (John 17:22),
which means that they should be united in agreement with one another as he (Jesus) is always united in agreement with God, as stated:
“I [Jesus] always do the things that are pleasing to Him [God]” (John 8:29).
There is thus no implication that Jesus and God, or the twelve apostles are to be considered as of one essence.
F
In the New Testament, a great mystery is revealed. Paul refers to this mystery as "Christ in us, the hope of glory". This is what Christ was referring to when He spoke of being one with the Father, that His Holy Spirit would live in and through us just as He did through Christ. Unfortunately, many Christians can't seem to comprehend the how and why behind the Holy Spirit of the Lord coming to reside in the hearts of those believe. In fact, many who profess to comprehend it only do so with the mind and not the heart - possessing little to no fruit of the Holy Spirit which is the evidence of such an indwelling thus the indwelling that they possess is nothing more than hypothetical, a figment of their own imagination as it pertains to the doctrine that they embrace.
However, for those who truly understand and embrace such an indwelling. Not only are the fruits manifest in their lives, there are many gifts as well. Now please understand, by stating such I'm not trying to support one doctrine over another. I am merely stating fact. I have seen people delivered from crack-cocaine and meth addictions. I have seen people healed from bulimia and other near fatal eating disorders. I have seen witches, Muslims and Budd radically converted and preach the gospel with much success. And I have seen homosexuals set free and purified.
There is much to be said about "Christ in us, the hope of glory". However, the question that needs to be asked is: Does the Holy Spirit really dwell in you or are you one of those who possess no other evidence than a dysfunctional doctrine?
However, for those who truly understand and embrace such an indwelling. Not only are the fruits manifest in their lives, there are many gifts as well. Now please understand, by stating such I'm not trying to support one doctrine over another. I am merely stating fact. I have seen people delivered from crack-cocaine and meth addictions. I have seen people healed from bulimia and other near fatal eating disorders. I have seen witches, Muslims and Budd radically converted and preach the gospel with much success. And I have seen homosexuals set free and purified.
There is much to be said about "Christ in us, the hope of glory". However, the question that needs to be asked is: Does the Holy Spirit really dwell in you or are you one of those who possess no other evidence than a dysfunctional doctrine?
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Has this question between what is referred to as the "Trinty" or "Oneness" come from our need to make sure we are following the 1st 2nd & 3rd commandments? Or is it from those "Statments of Faith" we use to judge one another?
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain
If we are just trying to Please the HOLY ONE of Israel...by worshipping ONLY HIM and no other diety I don't think it matters which thought you take to heart. The Creator of Heaven and Earth knows our hearts. He knows our intentions. He knows if we really worship HIM or something else. So this discussion is just an exercise in futility. All that matters is we as individuals are asked to decide if we will believe by faith that Jesus is the Only WAY, Truth and Life and no one gets to the Heavenly Father except through Belief in Jesus as the only begotten Risen Son. We are asked to Believe by faith alone in the Gospel of the Creator which is: Jesus IS Emmanuel (God with us) born as the Prophets spoke; of a virgin from the House of David. On the eve of HIS birth Angels confirmed He was the one Prophsied about. His followers told us they walked with him and heard him speak and saw his miracles. He died as He said he would die and rose on the 3rd day as He said he would rise. He was seen by hundreds of his followers and then they watched him ascend up to the Heavenly Father until such a time HE will return to gather his faithful, those already dead will rise first and then the rest of us will follow. We will escape the coming wrath and destruction of Earth to live peacefully and eternally without sadness or fear with OUR Creator. IF we take the Creator at his Word then we should be able to accept that Jesus is the Lamb who's blood covers the sin of the world. The Blood of the Lamb is the seal that seperates us from the unbeliever. Just as when the Israelites believed by faith the Angel of Death would pass over if they put the blood of the lamb on the door posts.
We are all doing this by Faith in the unseen. Faith in words written thousands of years before this moment. We do this because some how we got past the darkness and the forces that oppress us. We see a distinction between light who is of the Creator and darkness from the judged prince of this world.
We are one in this unity.
Why do we not allow gentleness and meekness to draw us closer to one another rather than tear down each other's ideals just because we are struggling to understand such a lofty concept? Is Jesus God? How can we worship a God with 3 natures?
How can we use these statements of faith to determine who is saved and who is not saved? Who are we to determine this? IS it our Gospel?
When it is all said and done we will not be judged by the extranious man made doctrines...we will be without judgment or condemnation because by faith we confessed Jesus IS the Risen Savior and that is our unity. IF we are ever asked... like so many have already been tasked in other countires...If we are ever required to deny Jesus is the Risen Son...I venture a guess this discussion will not be our deciding factor. We will choose to Confess Jesus only if we really believe HIS GOSPEL is worth suffering or dying for. In our obedicance and Love to an unseen Savior we will decide since HE died and rose again for us... we can trust when we die we will be risen with him as well.
I pray the Peace of our Creator be continually with each of us and our hearts will remain standfast in unity as a People called BY HIS NAME. (Which ever that Name shall be)
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain
If we are just trying to Please the HOLY ONE of Israel...by worshipping ONLY HIM and no other diety I don't think it matters which thought you take to heart. The Creator of Heaven and Earth knows our hearts. He knows our intentions. He knows if we really worship HIM or something else. So this discussion is just an exercise in futility. All that matters is we as individuals are asked to decide if we will believe by faith that Jesus is the Only WAY, Truth and Life and no one gets to the Heavenly Father except through Belief in Jesus as the only begotten Risen Son. We are asked to Believe by faith alone in the Gospel of the Creator which is: Jesus IS Emmanuel (God with us) born as the Prophets spoke; of a virgin from the House of David. On the eve of HIS birth Angels confirmed He was the one Prophsied about. His followers told us they walked with him and heard him speak and saw his miracles. He died as He said he would die and rose on the 3rd day as He said he would rise. He was seen by hundreds of his followers and then they watched him ascend up to the Heavenly Father until such a time HE will return to gather his faithful, those already dead will rise first and then the rest of us will follow. We will escape the coming wrath and destruction of Earth to live peacefully and eternally without sadness or fear with OUR Creator. IF we take the Creator at his Word then we should be able to accept that Jesus is the Lamb who's blood covers the sin of the world. The Blood of the Lamb is the seal that seperates us from the unbeliever. Just as when the Israelites believed by faith the Angel of Death would pass over if they put the blood of the lamb on the door posts.
We are all doing this by Faith in the unseen. Faith in words written thousands of years before this moment. We do this because some how we got past the darkness and the forces that oppress us. We see a distinction between light who is of the Creator and darkness from the judged prince of this world.
We are one in this unity.
Why do we not allow gentleness and meekness to draw us closer to one another rather than tear down each other's ideals just because we are struggling to understand such a lofty concept? Is Jesus God? How can we worship a God with 3 natures?
How can we use these statements of faith to determine who is saved and who is not saved? Who are we to determine this? IS it our Gospel?
When it is all said and done we will not be judged by the extranious man made doctrines...we will be without judgment or condemnation because by faith we confessed Jesus IS the Risen Savior and that is our unity. IF we are ever asked... like so many have already been tasked in other countires...If we are ever required to deny Jesus is the Risen Son...I venture a guess this discussion will not be our deciding factor. We will choose to Confess Jesus only if we really believe HIS GOSPEL is worth suffering or dying for. In our obedicance and Love to an unseen Savior we will decide since HE died and rose again for us... we can trust when we die we will be risen with him as well.
I pray the Peace of our Creator be continually with each of us and our hearts will remain standfast in unity as a People called BY HIS NAME. (Which ever that Name shall be)
C
No argument here because this is coming into my opinion but read here friends
Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in Our Image, after Our Likeness
So when He was saying our He means the Trinity which is one person.
“Jesus is God”
Some people claim to believe that Jesus was a “good prophet”, but they deny that Jesus is God. If that is you, I would like to encourage you to consider some of these Bible verses:
Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)
Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”
Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by His self alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”
John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”
John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5,6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)
Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”
Hebrews 2:17,18 - “Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.”
Hebrews 4:15,16 - “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”
1 Peter 2:24 - “who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose stripes you were healed.”
He went from sovereignty to shame and from deity to death? Why!? For you.
John 15:13 - “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.”
Romans 5:8 - “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in Our Image, after Our Likeness
So when He was saying our He means the Trinity which is one person.
“Jesus is God”
Some people claim to believe that Jesus was a “good prophet”, but they deny that Jesus is God. If that is you, I would like to encourage you to consider some of these Bible verses:
Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)
Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”
Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by His self alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”
John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”
John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5,6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)
Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”
Hebrews 2:17,18 - “Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.”
Hebrews 4:15,16 - “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”
1 Peter 2:24 - “who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose stripes you were healed.”
He went from sovereignty to shame and from deity to death? Why!? For you.
John 15:13 - “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.”
Romans 5:8 - “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”