- Romans 8:38-9 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Truly nothing can separate me from the eternal grip of God’s love.
- NOTHING CAN SEPARATE US FROM CHRIST IF YOU DO NOT WANT THEM TO. This is what that Romans 8 addresses. It has nothing to do with rejecting your restoration , what we are discussing . It is of FREE CHOICE- CHOOSING TO RETURN TO/ OR TO REJECT YOUR RESTORATION.
- By CHOICE and FREE WILL one can cut oneself off from Christ, outside of that NOTHING CAN. Powers- concerns forces at work in the world. Nothing in the world or heaven can separate us against our will, is what that means. Free will is never taken away, God does not want robots.
- Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
- CHERRY PICKING AND IGNORING THE FULL CONTEXT OF ROMANS 9:16
- LET ME HELP YOU WITH THIS ONE TOO!
- God's Sovereign Choice Romans 9:15-17
…15For He says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”…
- THIS HAS TO DO WITH MAN BEING ABLE TO SAVE HIMSELF HE CAN NOT ONLY BY GOD"S MERCY CAN ANYONE BE SAVED. It is not by our desire or effort but on God's Mercy by extending grace to man. Yet this too has nothing to do with the OP. It has nothing to do with our desire to return to sin, or a lack of effort- once restored . It is effort to remain in Christ because we are always fighting against the flesh, the world and the devil. It is not effortless faith, but faith that requires involvement and action on our part. You can't just do whatever you want , including- willing sin! That is what you assert, with your false narrative.
- Romans 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
- Yes you must profess JESUS IS LORD, you are not professing that if you return to sin or reject Christ for satan. If you reject your restoration you are professing satan is your Lord .Now, understand, there is sin that does not lead to death. The sin being addressed here is sin which leads to death. That is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and is what the Hebrews OP states.
Can anyone help me understand these verses?
- Thread starter RebeccaAutumn
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John 6:70Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him.
None the less Judas choice to betray.
Joshua 24:15, “And if it seems evil in your eyes to serve יהוה, choose for yourselves this day whom you are going to serve, whether the mighty ones which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the mighty ones of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But I and my house, we serve יהוה.”
John 7:17, “If anyone chooses to do His desire, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from YHWH, or whether I speak from Myself.”
None the less Judas choice to betray.
Joshua 24:15, “And if it seems evil in your eyes to serve יהוה, choose for yourselves this day whom you are going to serve, whether the mighty ones which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the mighty ones of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But I and my house, we serve יהוה.”
John 7:17, “If anyone chooses to do His desire, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from YHWH, or whether I speak from Myself.”
Hebrews 11:24-27, “By belief, Mosheh, having become great, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Pharaoh, choosing rather to be afflicted with the people of Yah than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a time, deeming the reproach of Messiah greater riches than the treasures in Mitsrayim, for he was looking to the reward. By belief, he left Mitsrayim, not fearing the wrath of the sovereign, for he was steadfast, as seeing Him who is invisible.”
Genesis 4:7, “If you do right, will it not be accepted? If you don’t do right, sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it.”
Psalm 9:7-8, “But יהוה abides forever, He is preparing His throne for judgment. And He judges the world in righteousness, He judges the peoples in straightness.”
Malachi 3:16-18, “Then those who reverenced יהוה spoke often one to another, and יהוה paid attention and heard them; and a Book of Remembrance was written in His presence of those who gave reverence to יהוה, and who thought upon His Name; And they will be Mine! says יהוה of hosts. In that day when I make up My jewels I will spare them, as a man spares his own son who serves him. Then you will return, and again discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him who servesיהוה, and him who does not serve Him.”
and Yahshua/Jesus says the same in the "New Testament"
John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done* righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced* evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”
Psalm 9:7-8, “But יהוה abides forever, He is preparing His throne for judgment. And He judges the world in righteousness, He judges the peoples in straightness.”
Malachi 3:16-18, “Then those who reverenced יהוה spoke often one to another, and יהוה paid attention and heard them; and a Book of Remembrance was written in His presence of those who gave reverence to יהוה, and who thought upon His Name; And they will be Mine! says יהוה of hosts. In that day when I make up My jewels I will spare them, as a man spares his own son who serves him. Then you will return, and again discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him who servesיהוה, and him who does not serve Him.”
and Yahshua/Jesus says the same in the "New Testament"
John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done* righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced* evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”
U
Yes the larger context is about Israel and their election, however verse 29 speaks to the character and promises of God.
So then............ you are stating that these gifts and His calling are irrevocable only pertain to Israel as the Elect, however the same God who gives the gift of salvation in the new covenant to Jews and the Gentiles (for those who have been born again) those gifts/calling He has made revocable?
So we have two different Gods then. It would seem that we should try to become Jews to gain the irrevocable gifts?
Is this what you are stating?
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NKJV
Anything from God is a gift.
So then............ you are stating that these gifts and His calling are irrevocable only pertain to Israel as the Elect, however the same God who gives the gift of salvation in the new covenant to Jews and the Gentiles (for those who have been born again) those gifts/calling He has made revocable?
So we have two different Gods then. It would seem that we should try to become Jews to gain the irrevocable gifts?
Is this what you are stating?
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NKJV
Anything from God is a gift.
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I am not saying it- God is , I simply do not question His purpose. This Romans verse you chose, I just put the full context. I am simply saying what is being spoken of here. God is speaking of His irrevocable gift given to Israel . To know what the Lord means by "All Israel will be saved " is to know who He calls Israel= ( Jacob) it is the House of Jacob to whom the irrevocable gift is given= TO BE SAVED. NOT ESAU.
Romans 9:13
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
All in Jacob (Israel) is the irrevocable gift of salvation.
Listen, I am a student of the Word . Part of being a child is being able to be humble enough to learn when one is wrong. I have been taught and edified by the Holy Spirit many times. I have no fear of being wrong, because My Lord will always correct me because I fear Him more than correction, as all should. Humility is the most important thing concerning growth and abiding. I do not walk around like PAPAL INFALLIBILITY is my doctrine.
The Way of Wisdom Proverbs 9:8-10
…8Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man, and he will love you. 9Instruct a wise man, and he will be wiser still; teach a righteous man, and he will increase his learning. 10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.…
I am no fool I do not mock when I am being shown a truth. I take it as a blessing. I have simply shown that one can reject their restoration and that is what the Hebrews OP verses state. I also supported that truth with another apostle's writings.
2Peter2:15-22
15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness.
The straight way is the inner path to heaven the restoration state. You can leave the straight way. The straight way only Christ can establish everything is made straight through the RESTORATION. To leave it is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit- this is like the fallen angels who knew God and truth, and chose evil. That is why St. Peter talks about how God did not spare the angels and will not spare anyone else who does the very same thing.
That is what Hebrews is saying 6:4-6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and THEN have fallen away—to be restored AGAIN to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.
CRUCIFYING THE SON OF GOD ALL OVER AGAIN. This is pretty clear
2Peter 2 continued:
16But he was rebuked for his transgression by a donkey, otherwise without speech, that spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
THE VERDICT:
17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18With lofty but empty words, they appeal to the sensual passions of the flesh and entice those who are just escaping from others who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to corruption. For a man is a slave to whatever has overcome him.
20If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through their knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, ONLY to be entangled and overcome by it AGAIN, their final condition is worse than it was at first. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and turned away from the holy commandment passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”f and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”
You can give up your salvation for sure and many have. But if you truly love Christ NO ONE CAN TAKE IT FROM YOU. No one can TAKE YOU from the Love within Christ Jesus. When you choose to stay in love with Him ,no one will convince you otherwise. God Bless!
Amen! John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. He was already lost. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).
Syllogism
1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father
Or, this way.
1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.
Syllogism
1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father
Or, this way.
1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.
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Thankyou so much for you response.
Reading this had me worried, I turned away in my earlier teens and lived in such a terrible way. This verse struck fear into my heart for my own salvation. I have been very afraid of my past and how much I ruined my own heart/salvation being so foolish.
Lol I can Attest that He does discipline.. nothing ever went right for me when I was living that life and I mean absolutely nothing. It even came to a point where I woke up one morning and I couldn’t use my right hand all movement completely gone for over a month and no doctor knew what was going on it was completely dead... this happened right before something terrible happened and I feel almost like it was a warning..
ThNkyou so much again for your detailed explanation, it has blessed me.
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So does this mean for example me as a child I was brought up in a believing home accepted Christ but in my teens I fell into rebellion and lived sinful, I still believed in Christ but was not walking with Him.
Does this still mean I cannot be saved?
Now I Feel I am truly trying to walk with Him, I read and try to understand the Bible. I do feel like I have changed, I am very regretful and repent and cry for all the sins of my past... I even felt called to be baptized.
Am I what the author of Hebrews is talking about?
Do not fear sister. You are going to be ok.
We are not a Christian by following Jesus. This is a great deception. One the devil always tries to exploit.
We follow Jesus BECAUSE we are a Christian. We become a Christian by hearing and believing the Gospel unto Salvation. When that happens we are "born again". A NEW creation, with a NEW heart. A Child, not merely a creation like the unsaved, of God. YOU are HIS little girl!
Now that Child of God can be disobedient, and in need of correction. Sometimes that correction can be painful. But understand that He is NEVER going to leave or forsake His little girl. He will do what is necessary to draw you back to Him. This revelation can open our eyes to love Him more deeply, and to STOP focusing on our failures and sins, and focus on Him and what He has done for us, and to us.
Now be blessed and use that blessing to bless others as He equips you!
We are not a Christian by following Jesus. This is a great deception. One the devil always tries to exploit.
We follow Jesus BECAUSE we are a Christian. We become a Christian by hearing and believing the Gospel unto Salvation. When that happens we are "born again". A NEW creation, with a NEW heart. A Child, not merely a creation like the unsaved, of God. YOU are HIS little girl!
Now that Child of God can be disobedient, and in need of correction. Sometimes that correction can be painful. But understand that He is NEVER going to leave or forsake His little girl. He will do what is necessary to draw you back to Him. This revelation can open our eyes to love Him more deeply, and to STOP focusing on our failures and sins, and focus on Him and what He has done for us, and to us.
Now be blessed and use that blessing to bless others as He equips you!
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Have you sold out for satan? That is what Judas did. I will explain this as carefully as possible. Many of us go through a rebellion in our youth. The scripture is all about addressing that. David did in his young adulthood, Solomon- who even went as far as to worship the false gods of his wives of different lands. But he repented and at the end of his life he never renounced the one true God.
These Hebrew and St. Peter verses speak more to extremes which are possible and are more possible in these end days (concerning coming Mark of the beast). For instance- say you are Christian you have known Christ even believed you loved Him. You desire to be famous though, and not for spreading the gospel but for maybe your other talents- singing or dancing , maybe your beauty, and want gain from this. Then a real attractive other comes along in the guise of fame and fortune, and tells you , in order to gain all this you must bow down to satan ( as MOST EVERY MAINSTREAM MUSIC ARTIST AND ACTOR today has done) and you do, you have therefore rejected your restoration. You have sold out for another love. God must cover all bases and there must be an expression of every form of sin described for us in the Word. It is a cautionary tale, if you will- to prevent if possible, someone from doing what is described.
Lukewarmness can lead to a complete rejection -as the Letter to the Church of Laodicea states. This is when you have exhausted Christ's patients for you in your back sliding and embracing erroneous practices and doctrines and intermingle them with your Christianity. Christ then makes the choice for you and spews you out of His mouth. It's like a continually unfaithful girlfriend / wife, He will not put up with you anymore . And will not take you back at that point, you would have been better off never having known Him.
Did you bow down to satan? And I am not saying an occultist can not be forgiven either, that is- the one who has never known Him to begin with. I am speaking of a Christian who rejects his or her restoration , the scriptures say it is impossible at that point to restore he or she. God Bless!
These Hebrew and St. Peter verses speak more to extremes which are possible and are more possible in these end days (concerning coming Mark of the beast). For instance- say you are Christian you have known Christ even believed you loved Him. You desire to be famous though, and not for spreading the gospel but for maybe your other talents- singing or dancing , maybe your beauty, and want gain from this. Then a real attractive other comes along in the guise of fame and fortune, and tells you , in order to gain all this you must bow down to satan ( as MOST EVERY MAINSTREAM MUSIC ARTIST AND ACTOR today has done) and you do, you have therefore rejected your restoration. You have sold out for another love. God must cover all bases and there must be an expression of every form of sin described for us in the Word. It is a cautionary tale, if you will- to prevent if possible, someone from doing what is described.
Lukewarmness can lead to a complete rejection -as the Letter to the Church of Laodicea states. This is when you have exhausted Christ's patients for you in your back sliding and embracing erroneous practices and doctrines and intermingle them with your Christianity. Christ then makes the choice for you and spews you out of His mouth. It's like a continually unfaithful girlfriend / wife, He will not put up with you anymore . And will not take you back at that point, you would have been better off never having known Him.
Did you bow down to satan? And I am not saying an occultist can not be forgiven either, that is- the one who has never known Him to begin with. I am speaking of a Christian who rejects his or her restoration , the scriptures say it is impossible at that point to restore he or she. God Bless!
Jesus reered to Judas as the son of perdition: a French word that means lost, represents those who will not give up their life as a thief. There were 2 thief's who died with Jesus, one who believed and one who needed proof of God: He needed proof because their was no room for God in His heart. "All manner of sin shall be forgiven to man, but rejecting the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven to man."
"Without Love I am nothing."
"Blessed is He whoever is not offended in Me."
"Blessed are they who Love Your law, nothing shall offend them.
"Without Love I am nothing."
"Blessed is He whoever is not offended in Me."
"Blessed are they who Love Your law, nothing shall offend them.
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