Does the ascension of Christ implies a flat earth?
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i've entertained that idea before, except, He proved that wasn't the case:
they thought He was a ghost/spirit -- but 'food for thought' He ate a fish to demonstrate He was there in the body
While they were still talking about this, Jesus Himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself! Touch Me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” When He had said this, He showed them His hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, He asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and He took it and ate it in their presence.
(Luke 24:37-43)
they thought He was a ghost/spirit -- but 'food for thought' He ate a fish to demonstrate He was there in the body
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i've entertained that idea before, except, He proved that wasn't the case:
they thought He was a ghost/spirit -- but 'food for thought' He ate a fish to demonstrate He was there in the body
While they were still talking about this, Jesus Himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself! Touch Me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” When He had said this, He showed them His hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, He asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and He took it and ate it in their presence.
(Luke 24:37-43)
they thought He was a ghost/spirit -- but 'food for thought' He ate a fish to demonstrate He was there in the body
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
So I see your point, and do not disagree that He can manifest Himself in whatever form He wishes. But I do believe He is a Spirit now and not Flesh and Blood as you and I.
I was mostly replying to the idea that His assentation had anything to do with the physical shape of our earth. I don't believe it does.
And yet He appeared to them by entering a room in which the doors were closed. I do not say He didn't appear to them in "A" Body. I'm suggesting His Body was not of this world, and if He could appear to them by entering a room without opening a door, then it seems He could disappear from them without flying through the air out of sight into the sky.
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
So I see your point, and do not disagree that He can manifest Himself in whatever form He wishes. But I do believe He is a Spirit now and not Flesh and Blood as you and I.
I was mostly replying to the idea that His assentation had anything to do with the physical shape of our earth. I don't believe it does.
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
So I see your point, and do not disagree that He can manifest Himself in whatever form He wishes. But I do believe He is a Spirit now and not Flesh and Blood as you and I.
I was mostly replying to the idea that His assentation had anything to do with the physical shape of our earth. I don't believe it does.
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What Jesus could have done is somewhat irrelevant when stacked against what He actually did.
Yes, He apparently walked through walls, so there is some difference between His resurrected body and our mortal bodies. However, there isn't a single verse of Scripture suggesting that He presently has no physical body.
Regarding your "assentation" (which is not a word), it's spelled "ascension". Jesus "ascended"; His "ascent" into heaven was witnessed by the disciples. He didn't "assent" (agree passively) or "assentate" (which isn't a word either).
Yes, He apparently walked through walls, so there is some difference between His resurrected body and our mortal bodies. However, there isn't a single verse of Scripture suggesting that He presently has no physical body.
Regarding your "assentation" (which is not a word), it's spelled "ascension". Jesus "ascended"; His "ascent" into heaven was witnessed by the disciples. He didn't "assent" (agree passively) or "assentate" (which isn't a word either).
i believe His body is still flesh/bone/physical as well as that He is a spirit. it is something different than what we are now. i think the passage in Luke i quoted was proving that He is physically resurrected in a real, actual body ((as well as when He invited Judas to put his finger in His side)). it's not a body as ours, but it's not immaterial, either "it hath not yet appeared what we shall be" -- also He spoke of drinking wine again in the kingdom ((@ last supper)), indicating that our form will be one that takes food and drink, which doesn't fir with how we as humans think of 'spirit beings' does it?
in re: appearing in the upper room, something to think about is that before the resurrection He passed through angry crowds who meant to seize Him ((ex. Luke 4:30)). the physical universe was already ((and always)) at His command.
ultimately this is a mystery ((i think)) we won't know until He redeems our bodies, making them like His.
here's the question that comes into my mind after i discard the idea that He was only resurrected as a projection in their minds eye:
they saw Him rise until a cloud obscured Him:
how small does an human body appear when it's far enough away to be obscured by a cloud?
were they watching Him shrink into a speck in their sight with distance? an human eye can only recognize a persons face from ~ 100 to 150ft at maximum, by physical limitations. how far away are the clouds? did they just see a dot at that point, or .. ?
did His appearing follow natural physical law here? or did He appear 'larger than life' ?
are we reading about a 'normal' rising up into the air of a physical object, like a rocket ship, or is this something more miraculous? miraculous not just in the fact He was defying gravity - how many physical laws was He demonstrating power over with this act?
in re: appearing in the upper room, something to think about is that before the resurrection He passed through angry crowds who meant to seize Him ((ex. Luke 4:30)). the physical universe was already ((and always)) at His command.
ultimately this is a mystery ((i think)) we won't know until He redeems our bodies, making them like His.
here's the question that comes into my mind after i discard the idea that He was only resurrected as a projection in their minds eye:
they saw Him rise until a cloud obscured Him:
how small does an human body appear when it's far enough away to be obscured by a cloud?
were they watching Him shrink into a speck in their sight with distance? an human eye can only recognize a persons face from ~ 100 to 150ft at maximum, by physical limitations. how far away are the clouds? did they just see a dot at that point, or .. ?
did His appearing follow natural physical law here? or did He appear 'larger than life' ?
are we reading about a 'normal' rising up into the air of a physical object, like a rocket ship, or is this something more miraculous? miraculous not just in the fact He was defying gravity - how many physical laws was He demonstrating power over with this act?
there's actually no physical law that prevents a body from passing through and suddenly appearing in the middle of a locked room. it would be quantum tunneling on a macro scale - physics doesn't say that this is impossible; it says it is fantastically, amazingly, almost unintelligibly impossible. subatomic particles tunnel in such a way all the time, it's demonstrated and observable, but not en-masse and not across great distance - though not because it is not possible, but because it is hugely improbable, by a margin larger than the number of atoms in the universe.
we should be careful we don't get ourselves knee-deep into some kind of gnostic view that the physical universe itself is evil & God has no part in it - He created it and called it good - or some weird JW idea that there was no physical resurrection.
we should be careful we don't get ourselves knee-deep into some kind of gnostic view that the physical universe itself is evil & God has no part in it - He created it and called it good - or some weird JW idea that there was no physical resurrection.
Jesus has a spiritual body as John relates:
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
Also see Paul on the resurrection:
1 Cor 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
Also see Paul on the resurrection:
1 Cor 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
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but He didn't leave a natural body in the tomb; He was raised, bodily, and we shall be raised like Him. literal resurrection is what Paul is defending throughout this chapter - we were sown in corruption and will be raised in incorruption; this is written as though tautologically equivalent to being sown a natural body and raised a spiritual one. as though the natural, physical body is exactly the thing raised as a spiritual one.
i'm not meaning to contradict what's written here; not that the resurrected body isn't spirit, but that's also tangible, physical. maybe it is uncorrupted matter, not the corrupted matter we inhabit now? just as 'new heavens and new earth' unpolluted by sin?
some people might say 'spiritual body' and mean completely non-physical, intangible, an apparition. i don't think that's quite the right way to understand this.
i'm not meaning to contradict what's written here; not that the resurrected body isn't spirit, but that's also tangible, physical. maybe it is uncorrupted matter, not the corrupted matter we inhabit now? just as 'new heavens and new earth' unpolluted by sin?
some people might say 'spiritual body' and mean completely non-physical, intangible, an apparition. i don't think that's quite the right way to understand this.
a seed doesn't grow into a seed; it grows into a plant. but the plant is made from the substance of the seed.
the disciples thought Jesus was a ghost, but He showed them, He is tangible, He eats, He is not an apparition. it is an actual spiritual 'body' not a spirit merely appearing as a body only in the minds eye. He showed them His scars and when He did that He wasn't tricking their minds into visualizing scars; they are real.
the disciples thought Jesus was a ghost, but He showed them, He is tangible, He eats, He is not an apparition. it is an actual spiritual 'body' not a spirit merely appearing as a body only in the minds eye. He showed them His scars and when He did that He wasn't tricking their minds into visualizing scars; they are real.
