Temple of God - Christians or a physical building in Jerusalem?
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Followers of Christ, yes they will be (i.e. "Christians" if you will); however, they will not be considered "the Church which is His body" (which consists only of believers of "this present age"--not of OT saints, not of Trib saints, not of MK saints--that is, not all other saints of all OTHER time periods).
The "Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (that is, believers of "this present age"--not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods). The "Church which is His body" will be gathered "AS ONE" (that is, at our Rapture), whereas Israel will be gathered "one BY one" (Isa27:12-13) and to a wholly different location than we will be.
The "Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (that is, believers of "this present age"--not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods). The "Church which is His body" will be gathered "AS ONE" (that is, at our Rapture), whereas Israel will be gathered "one BY one" (Isa27:12-13) and to a wholly different location than we will be.
shewing: He will shew/see himself as love, being that he will have the whole faithless world in love with him and his system (Revelation 13:8).
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
I would generally say that the first Church believed in literal millenium in the future.
But this millenium was Christian, nothing about Jews, sacrificial system, sionism etc as dispensationalists today believe.
Various people had various views of how the millenium will look like, if the Jerusalem will be from heaven or the one on earth etc.
But this millenium was Christian, nothing about Jews, sacrificial system, sionism etc as dispensationalists today believe.
Various people had various views of how the millenium will look like, if the Jerusalem will be from heaven or the one on earth etc.
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Indeed. Btw I agree with your previous post, the earliest church was definately premill, but HISTORICAL premill, not of the dispensational two bodies kind of deal, it was more christian, as we concluded in the other thread, thats a fact. Bro im reading the commentary on revelation by Victorinus right now. He is a century before Augustine, and he is clearly amill in his position. BUT he is still futurist, in the sense that he believes in a future person of antichrist and so on.
Nonetheless: As im reading this, his commentary to me seems absurd. I respect him greatly, because he was martyred for the faith. But take a look at this:
"And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair. The sun becomes as sackcloth; that is, the brightness of doctrine will be obscured by unbelievers."
Now, when I read sun become black as sackcloth, i take it to mean the sun is darkened. NOTHING about doctrine there. Its fascinating to see HOW FAR we have come in our biblical interpretation today. Its so vastly different from the past.
Part of me wants to just AMEN these guys and leave it at that, due to the fact that we are living in easy times, and far detached from the apostolic roots, unlike these guys who were martyred for the faith, and were hardcore. Im embarrased of my life really when comparing it to these guys. What do i know? But the other part of me insists that if words dont mean what they say, they mean nothing at all.
Nonetheless: As im reading this, his commentary to me seems absurd. I respect him greatly, because he was martyred for the faith. But take a look at this:
"And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair. The sun becomes as sackcloth; that is, the brightness of doctrine will be obscured by unbelievers."
Now, when I read sun become black as sackcloth, i take it to mean the sun is darkened. NOTHING about doctrine there. Its fascinating to see HOW FAR we have come in our biblical interpretation today. Its so vastly different from the past.
Part of me wants to just AMEN these guys and leave it at that, due to the fact that we are living in easy times, and far detached from the apostolic roots, unlike these guys who were martyred for the faith, and were hardcore. Im embarrased of my life really when comparing it to these guys. What do i know? But the other part of me insists that if words dont mean what they say, they mean nothing at all.
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I am reading "THE RAPTURE IN TWENTY CENTURIES OF BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION", now.
https://www.tms.edu/m/tmsj13e.pdf
This work confirms our theory about the first church.
https://www.tms.edu/m/tmsj13e.pdf
This work confirms our theory about the first church.
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Yup its well cemented for sure. I will take a look at it too (master's seminar i think is dispie btw?). But remember that Justin martyr also says there are "many" who belong to the true faith and dont agree with premillennialism. So its not a salvation issue obviously. BUT its still an interesting subject to look into!
Where do you lean? Amill or historical premil (and why?)? BTW another interesting subject is going back and looking at the early church commentaries on O.T. passages about the kingdom and see how they talk about it. Fascinating stuff!
Where do you lean? Amill or historical premil (and why?)? BTW another interesting subject is going back and looking at the early church commentaries on O.T. passages about the kingdom and see how they talk about it. Fascinating stuff!
Pay attention. One body of believers is the Church, existent today on the earth. Today Israel is not a body of believers. But when the Church is gone, and Israel turns to her Messiah, then she will be a different body of believers.
Salvation is always found in Jesus Christ. But not all believers are of the same body.
Quantrill
Salvation is always found in Jesus Christ. But not all believers are of the same body.
Quantrill
All these things will be a challenge to them that pin their understanding on physical things. Right from Genesis 1, physical things have been used but more significantly as a prophesy of what was to happen spiritually in the end times which started in the 1st century - all that, is what is referred to as the law and the prophets which is basically all prophesies including the wars that Israel fought, anyone saying there's going to be a third temple is still dwelling by the law.
The devil is a liar, he makes these things appear so, physically so that people are deluded even more. A third temple could be built, a world leader could emerge and sign treaties with Israel, there could be worst wars in the middle east and physical Jerusalem could be destroyed- but all these will serve to lie and through these lies, the devil will capture many.
The basics that you need to know, spiritually speaking:
1. Israel/Jews means believers
2. The temple of God means the elect/believers- their hearts
3. There's two groups of believers;
- Jerusalem- unfaithful believers aka Church of Smyrna. These are killed and have their faith refined through fire/tribulation
- Judah - Faithful believers aka the Church of Philadelphia aka 144k faithful Jews. These are faithful because no lies (from antichrist) will be found in them. Basically means that they know God.
So, when Jesus says "..when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, let those in Judea flee...", He doesn't mean it literally, He only means certain group of unfaithful believers will be flattened and have their faith refined by fire while the faithful believers will escape tribulation.
And all these things are happening now, they were happening in the 1st century and will continue until the end of age that is determined. The reason Jesus said that at the end of age will normal, people will be eating and drinking, marrying and being given to marriage. There's not going to be an intense moment of wars that will bring the end, the wars being spoken of are against principalities and powers in the spiritual realm.
Another truth is, the antichrist is not a physical being either. People have been worshiping the antichrist for 2000 years now and we are almost there, trust me.
The end of age is also not imminent, it has been declared in the prophesy but who will understand?
The devil is a liar, he makes these things appear so, physically so that people are deluded even more. A third temple could be built, a world leader could emerge and sign treaties with Israel, there could be worst wars in the middle east and physical Jerusalem could be destroyed- but all these will serve to lie and through these lies, the devil will capture many.
The basics that you need to know, spiritually speaking:
1. Israel/Jews means believers
2. The temple of God means the elect/believers- their hearts
3. There's two groups of believers;
- Jerusalem- unfaithful believers aka Church of Smyrna. These are killed and have their faith refined through fire/tribulation
- Judah - Faithful believers aka the Church of Philadelphia aka 144k faithful Jews. These are faithful because no lies (from antichrist) will be found in them. Basically means that they know God.
So, when Jesus says "..when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, let those in Judea flee...", He doesn't mean it literally, He only means certain group of unfaithful believers will be flattened and have their faith refined by fire while the faithful believers will escape tribulation.
And all these things are happening now, they were happening in the 1st century and will continue until the end of age that is determined. The reason Jesus said that at the end of age will normal, people will be eating and drinking, marrying and being given to marriage. There's not going to be an intense moment of wars that will bring the end, the wars being spoken of are against principalities and powers in the spiritual realm.
Another truth is, the antichrist is not a physical being either. People have been worshiping the antichrist for 2000 years now and we are almost there, trust me.
The end of age is also not imminent, it has been declared in the prophesy but who will understand?
I am pretty sure I am not a dispensationalist. Its a foreign and new idea unknown to church until some century ago.
I am not sure what to choose from the remaining views, though.
Preterism is fine, because it frees a Christian from looking at events and makes him to concentrate on Christ and important things instead. But I am not certain whether everything is fulfilled.
Historicism is fine, because it allows Christians in all ages to find comfort and to identify their enemies as the Beast or Antichrist and therefore helps them to overcome their torture and other pains and problems. But it leads to many false prophecies and identifications who is the Beast or Antichrist, making people concentrate on daily news more than on their life.
I am not sure what to choose from the remaining views, though.
Preterism is fine, because it frees a Christian from looking at events and makes him to concentrate on Christ and important things instead. But I am not certain whether everything is fulfilled.
Historicism is fine, because it allows Christians in all ages to find comfort and to identify their enemies as the Beast or Antichrist and therefore helps them to overcome their torture and other pains and problems. But it leads to many false prophecies and identifications who is the Beast or Antichrist, making people concentrate on daily news more than on their life.
When I read through the bible for the first time, on my own, no commentaries no nothing. I came out historical premill, I believe thats what the average guy gets from just reading it, without no preconceived ideas.
Amill sounds great for the simplicity, it matches the best with the New Testament OUTSIDE OF revelation. But if you were to just take Peter's epistles, Paul's epistles and the parables of Jesus about the end of the world, one would come out amill. But add to it Revelation and O.T. and the scales are re-adjusted imo.
Amill sounds great for the simplicity, it matches the best with the New Testament OUTSIDE OF revelation. But if you were to just take Peter's epistles, Paul's epistles and the parables of Jesus about the end of the world, one would come out amill. But add to it Revelation and O.T. and the scales are re-adjusted imo.
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Are there any verses anywhere for this two separate bodies, church and israel in the New testament? I'll be happy to change my mind if you can prove to me from the scriptures that the church and israel is separate in the NEW TESTAMENT. This should be a tough task, considering that Jesus took down the wall separating the people, book of galatians and ephesians make it clear. Despite all this, my mind is open to be proven wrong, please do so.
ANd one more thing, there is no verse in the NT that says the "church is gone" and THEN Israel turns to the messiah. Rev 3:10 isnt saying anything about church being gone.
Even if the rapture is pre-trib, those "tribulation saints" who then convert, WOULD BE the church, because they put their faith in Christ. This idea is just completely unscriptural. But as stated, I could be wrong, so I ask kindly show me where im wrong.
ANd one more thing, there is no verse in the NT that says the "church is gone" and THEN Israel turns to the messiah. Rev 3:10 isnt saying anything about church being gone.
Even if the rapture is pre-trib, those "tribulation saints" who then convert, WOULD BE the church, because they put their faith in Christ. This idea is just completely unscriptural. But as stated, I could be wrong, so I ask kindly show me where im wrong.
I do not know if this teaching is representative of the view of the orthodox church, but this priest says that the world has already ended and we are living in the new earth that will have no end:
But maybe I got him wrong, this video is just a short cut. I will watch his full preaching tomorrow.
But maybe I got him wrong, this video is just a short cut. I will watch his full preaching tomorrow.
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No. The orthodox believe that Jesus will return and create new heaven and new earth.
They also believe in a general resurrection of both the just and the unjust John 5:28-29.
I know because in my country its the second biggest church.
Here is one link: http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/Parousia.htm
They also believe in a general resurrection of both the just and the unjust John 5:28-29.
I know because in my country its the second biggest church.
Here is one link: http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/Parousia.htm
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