Faith comes by "hearing", "hearing" by the word of God ? You decide .

[Zmouth]

I did Rom. 8:9 .

The don't know that they don't know. Of course this is one of the teachings of the doctrine of Christ yet some won't believe it unless they see it for themselves written in the scriptures. Yet as revealed by word of God, unless one can learn to believe all things they will remain pnuema and never develop into phasma.

And example is given in John 3:8, while it is written that the wind blows where it will yet those born of the Spirit (pnuema) believe they can hear the sound of the wind (pnuema) but they don't know that they don't know so they think that they can hear the wind (pnuema), yet those born of the phasma (water and Spirit) hear the sound of the air molecules in motion caused by the pulsation of visible light emitted from the sun.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

This is the reason that the winds on earth follow a known circuit relative to it's position to the sun which is known as the trade winds. The trade winds are not random but follow a pattern which produce a predictable motion in the air molecules that form the firmament. Yet as written in Proverbs 18:2, some people have no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

So good luck with sharing your testimony.

 

[Pisteuo]

The don't know that they don't know. Of course this is one of the teachings of the doctrine of Christ yet some won't believe it unless they see it for themselves written in the scriptures. Yet as revealed by word of God, unless one can learn to believe all things they will remain pnuema and never develop into phasma.

And example is given in John 3:8, while it is written that the wind blows where it will yet those born of the Spirit (pnuema) believe they can hear the sound of the wind (pnuema) but they don't know that they don't know so they think that they can hear the wind (pnuema), yet those born of the phasma (water and Spirit) hear the sound of the air molecules in motion caused by the pulsation of visible light emitted from the sun.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

This is the reason that the winds on earth follow a known circuit relative to it's position to the sun which is known as the trade winds. The trade winds are not random but follow a pattern which produce a predictable motion in the air molecules that form the firmament. Yet as written in Proverbs 18:2, some people have no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

So good luck with sharing your testimony.

What if the Greek language has the word " wind " in its language , but the English language didn't have the word "wind" in theirs ? Yet a translator , because the word " wind " had to be translated from the Greek into the English , decided to use the word " movement " , because that is the closest word available to communicate it . The English language , the writers and authors would fashion everything that's written to support the word " movement " instead of the word " wind " . Hence the true name and definition of the word " wind " would be lost forever , because it couldn't be translated into the English language .

That is my testimony , that the most important word in the Scriptures " pisteuo " could not be translated into the English language from the Greek .

 

[dcontroversal]

What if the Greek language has the word " wind " in its language , but the English language didn't have the word "wind" in theirs ? Yet a translator , because the word " wind " had to be translated from the Greek into the English , decided to use the word " movement " , because that is the closest word available to communicate it . The English language , the writers and authors would fashion everything that's written to support the word " movement " instead of the word " wind " . Hence the true name and definition of the word " wind " would be lost forever , because it couldn't be translated into the English language .

That is my testimony , that the most important word in the Scriptures " pisteuo " could not be translated into the English language from the Greek .

What if pigs could fly or the Easter Bunny actually bounced around giving out colored eggs and hollow chocolate bunnies.......

Your made up translation of Pistis (belief) is wrong, hence your conclusions are wrong................and IF the WHAT IF GAME is valid the gospel has been devalued to a street organ player with a dancing monkey in Calcutta dancing for coin..........!!!!!!!

 

[Pisteuo]

What if pigs could fly or the Easter Bunny actually bounced around giving out colored eggs and hollow chocolate bunnies.......

Your made up translation of Pistis (belief) is wrong, hence your conclusions are wrong................and IF the WHAT IF GAME is valid the gospel has been devalued to a street organ player with a dancing monkey in Calcutta dancing for coin..........!!!!!!!

Pisteuo , my translation of pisteuo is wrong . Only , it's not my translation , it's the Vines Greek dictionarys translation . Or I could go to the Strongs where it begins by saying , " pisteuo means NOT just to believe "

Your choice to wake up or not .

 

[Zmouth]

That is my testimony , that the most important word in the Scriptures " pisteuo " could not be translated into the English language from the Greek .

Do you know what KJV was translated from Latin Vulgate. So the transition from the Greek to English was made using Latin.

The Greek Pisteuo translates to Credo in Latin, which translate to I believe in Engish, yet the doctrine of Christ is not based upon private interpretation but principles as defined by the word of God. Hence Jesus said his doctrine was not his doctrine but the doctrine of him who sent him. But if I say my doctrine is not my doctrine but the doctrine of him who sent me then obviously I was saying it is my doctrine right?

Since those who do not understand a principle can't hear the truth because as he said, He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. John 8:47 (See Heb. 6:1)

 

[Zmouth]

Pisteuo , my translation of pisteuo is wrong . Only , it's not my translation , it's the Vines Greek dictionarys translation . Or I could go to the Strongs where it begins by saying , " pisteuo means NOT just to believe "

Your choice to wake up or not .

That's right, credo in Latin actually infers 'I believe that' represents the reason a person believes and not just that a person believes something. Since faith is the substance of what one believes, pisteuo would infer they have a reason or substance to what they believe rather than just hoping something is true.

 

[Pisteuo]

Do you know what KJV was translated from Latin Vulgate. So the transition from the Greek to English was made using Latin.

The Greek Pisteuo translates to Credo in Latin, which translate to I believe in Engish, yet the doctrine of Christ is not based upon private interpretation but principles as defined by the word of God. Hence Jesus said his doctrine was not his doctrine but the doctrine of him who sent him. But if I say my doctrine is not my doctrine but the doctrine of him who sent me then obviously I was saying it is my doctrine right?

Since those who do not understand a principle can't hear the truth because as he said, He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. John 8:47 (See Heb. 6:1)

So the transition from Greek to English was made using Latin ? Ah , no ! The English language just didn't have a verb form of Faith like the Greek does for pistis . This problem occurred when the Greek was translated into the " English " , not the Greek through the Latin into the Greek .

The Latin has no bearing on the translation from Greek to English .

What you've really pointed out , is that the English could not translate the verb form of Faith from the Latin either , for the same reason .

 

[Pisteuo]

That's right, credo in Latin actually infers 'I believe that' represents the reason a person believes and not just that a person believes something. Since faith is the substance of what one believes, pisteuo would infer they have a reason or substance to what they believe rather than just hoping something is true.

When something is mistranslated into the English language , you need to realize , it's going to hence be also mistranslated back out of the English language . Same with the Latin , your reading it it the mistranslated English , interpreting the mistranslatied word with the mistranslation. Yes , I know , this is why this is such a joy to share with people .

 

[Pisteuo]

If you have been following the other two threads , ( Rom. 8:9 and our walk with Christ , repentance and the Salvation journey ) I have shown that because at the beginning of the Salvation journey , we don't have the Spirit of Christ yet ,. Christ , His Word , and the promises in His word are not ours to claim yet . Therefore , " believing " then recieving His Spirit at this beginning stage would be claiming something that is not ours yet .

This misunderstanding of how Faith ( pistis ) is applied ( pisteuo ) is from the English language not having a verb form of Faith , which should have been the words (faithe , faither , and faithing ). When they had to choose another word ( believe , believer , and believing ) it seemingly started a process of perverting or understanding it backwards . I think I made a good argument in the first two threads , here is another understanding I would like to share for discussion .

And here is my disclaimer , I don't mean to upset people or cause distention here . I've thought about and concidered these understandings daily for over 30 years . I would feel right within myself if didn't share this for your consideration .

Ok , here we are at the start of our Salvation journey . We are being drawn or called out by the Father to Christ . We repent by making a mental turn from our way to His way . We then take our first step of Faith ( pisteuo , faithing ) .

In today's church world , that step is " believing " in What God has done and promises ( His Word ) , then recieving His Spirit . As I stated , this isn't possible due to at the beginning state , none of those things are ours yet . At this stage , " believing in God Word " is not a true act of pisteuo or faithing .

So , this is where Rom. 10:17 comes in . One might say " Faith comes by hearing , hearing by the Word of God ." And this proves that the hearing of Gods word is " not " act of pisteuo or faithing .

Over the years , something about Rom. 10:17 just didn't sit right with me . First , it was the fact Gods word wasn't available for public consumption until the 1500's. My funny brain asked , how did people all over the world get access to God's word before that , before it was put together ? I realize , a few had access to the spoken word , does that mean the Father could only call those in that specific vicinity ? If the Father called someone in the year 32 ad on the other side of the world , they would have access to " believe " His Word hence could not respond in Faith.

Second , I decided to dig into Rom.10:17 deeper . When I did it took me to my Interlineal Bible , and then to my Strongs expanded .

This is what I found .
The Greek word the Writers used to communicate the word "hearing" is 189 akoe . This is the exact definition from the Strongs specific to Rom. 10:17 word for word .

( 7b ) " the recieving of a message " Rom. 10:17 , something more than a mere sense of " hearing "; an interaction with the Word and a decision is always made. [ Compare to a courtroom hearing ].

Now submitting the fact I've always known we don't accept Christ , He accepts us , I was looking at this with some big questions .

1) since this is a courtroom type of hearing , is it ever ok to put Christ or His word on trial ? Where we sit on the judgement seat and Christ or His Word is on trial ?

2) were taught never to judge each other , but it's ok to judge Christ and His Word ?

3) shouldn't Christ be on the judgement seat , and we have something that needs to be on trial ?

My conclusion , is that when they translated the Greek into the English language , they may have left out just two letters in Rom. 10:17 that again , gave a backwards understanding .

Here is how I understand Rom. 8:9 should read , with a correct application of pisteuo or faithing .

Rom. ,8:9 should read , " Faith comes by " A " hearing , " A " hearing by the word if God .

The correct application of Rom. 8:9 concerning the topic of our state of being at the beginning of the Salvation process is ,

We are called , we repent , we take our first true step of Faith toward God ( pisteuo or faithing ) which is , " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender ," when we make that first act of Faith , faithing , pisteuo in the Greek , that act goes before Christ who is legitamently sitting on the judgement seat . What is being " heard " and a decision is always being made ? The submission of our surrendered life , and whether it is genuine or not . That is what's being heard , a hearing by the word of God , " Christ " !

If , He deems the first act of pisteuo to be genuine , we move forward in the Salvation journey or process into the testing ground or what Christ calls the parable of the sower . Where 3 out of the four soils Christ had deemed genuine will fail .

At this what I'm calling the third part of the Salvation process , we still " do not " have the Spirit of Christ sealed into us yet . So Christ , His word , and His promises in His word are still not ours to claim yet either .

The words believe , believer , and believing , should be seen as a virus or disease . They are going to take down alot of called out ones .

 

[Locutus]

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

The words believe , believer , and believing , should be seen as a virus or disease . They are going to take down alot of called out ones .

Hey! BaptistBibleBeliever is a viral disease! I knew I was gifted.

 

[dcontroversal]

Pisteuo , my translation of pisteuo is wrong . Only , it's not my translation , it's the Vines Greek dictionarys translation . Or I could go to the Strongs where it begins by saying , " pisteuo means NOT just to believe "

Your choice to wake up or not .

Your choice to use biblical correct definitions or your own made up version of words that fits your false gospel....

 

[Zmouth]

So the transition from Greek to English was made using Latin ? Ah , no ! The English language just didn't have a verb form of Faith like the Greek does for pistis . This problem occurred when the Greek was translated into the " English " , not the Greek through the Latin into the Greek .

The Latin has no bearing on the translation from Greek to English .

What you've really pointed out , is that the English could not translate the verb form of Faith from the Latin either , for the same reason .

Well, the communication in Greek faded from use after a couple of centuries thus becoming a dead language. A dead language is a spoken language that nobody can speak with any proficiency. Once that occurs then not have any actual knowledge of the language spoken then the written word anyone's guess what the interpretation of the tongue was accurate, thus it is a dead language.

So in that case you look at the closet point it was translated by those that language which interacted with the original language. That would be the Latin writings. It isn't that there aren't good translations of the Greek, it is just when those become more subjective.

But seeing that it is the same God that inspired men in the ancient, if the wisdom of the world couldn't translate the native Americans tongue during WWII, being what they who spoke their in their native language then would you think it could be translated now by anyone who didn't actively engage with that tongue?
(Axis powers during WWII couldn't translate the messages , what was spoken by native Americans on the Allied Forces side, they were called Codetalkers, )

So your right, according to Matthew 7:6

 

[MattforJesus]

A person is sealed unto the day of redemption when they are led of the Holy Spirit, for if you do not have the Spirit of Christ you are none of His, but not everybody that claims Jesus as Lord allows the Spirit to lead them.

Many are called, but few are chosen, and Jesus said not everyone that says Lord will be able to enter heaven for they were workers of iniquity, for they enjoyed sin and thought they were right with God.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The Lord knows them that are His having this seal, which this is what seals the saints, and how they are led of the Spirit, that everyone that names the name of Christ has to depart from iniquity.

1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

To be led of the Spirit a person has to hate sin, and do not want sin, but some do not have the knowledge of God.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

If a saint does not continue in the goodness of God then they will be cut off like the Jews that did not obey the truth in the Old Testament were cut off.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

God said for the saints to not act like the Jews in the wilderness, and to not depart from the living God by the deceitfulness of sins.

So there is no difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament, for you obey the truth or else you will be cut off from salvation.

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Because it is our sins that separate us from God whether we claim Christ or not.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

If a person hates sin, and does not want sin, then by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, for a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, for they crucified the flesh with the affections, and lusts, and show the ways of the Spirit in which there is no ways of the flesh there.

And God will not allow them to be tempted above what they can handle, and will give them an escape from the temptation so they can endure it.

So there is no excuse why a person cannot abstain from sins by the Spirit.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But some people that claim Christ have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, from such people turn away, and they are ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, for they will not allow the Spirit to lead them so they are not sealed unto the day of redemption, which they hold unto sin and think they are right with God.

Which are the people that say they cannot abstain from sins, and sin does not affect their relationship with God, which they testify out of their own mouths that they sin for they say they cannot cease from sins, which means they hold unto sin so they cannot be led of the Spirit.

For those in the truth know they can abstain from sins by the Spirit, and believe they have to abstain from sins as the Bible says they have to do.

But these people that say they cannot abstain from sins want to say they are sealed unto redemption, but you are not sealed unto redemption until you are led of the Spirit which a Spirit led life can abstain from sins.

The Bible says they are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, and we see that among them in society, for they say they love God, but they love fleshy pleasures more, enjoying the world like the world enjoys the world.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Love is the fulfilling of the law.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Charity, love in action, is greater than faith.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Faith works by love.

No charity, no faith.

Paul said without charity they have erred from the faith, and they are nothing, and James said their faith is dead, and John said the love of God does not dwell in them.

1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Love is kind, and is not arrogant, does not behave wrongly, is not selfish, does not think evil, and does not rejoice in iniquity to enjoy sins, but rejoices in the truth to abstain from sins by the Spirit, and does not go by their wants, but only by their needs, and to help others with their needs if possible.

But there are people that say they cannot abstain from sin, and sin does not affect their relationship with God, and then say they are sealed unto the day of redemption, but they cannot be led of the Spirit with such an attitude.

When we receive the Spirit, and are led of the Spirit, then we are sealed unto the day of redemption, but there are many who claim Christ that are not led of the Spirit which you can tell by their beliefs, and their lifestyle, and then say they are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[garee]

From my experiences I think the key in so much that "faith is a work" gets overlooked. Without it, it complicates the mystery that the scripture makes known.

 

[craig1971]

Yes it does. It shows you do none of the work! You can not have faith/belief apart from the Word of God--Gospel. Who brings that Gospel to your ears (hearing first)? Holy Spirit via preachers. God provides the information (Gospel) he wants you to believe or have faith in. Listening (hearing) to God's words compels you to believe or have faith. Who is the object of your belief/faith? Jesus! Once you believe then you are sealed with the Holy Spirit. God has marked as his own. Why do you think the New Testament writers call Christians believers? Because they have no faith? Further, you have a problem, because the Old Testament uses believe or believed for their terminology rather than faith. Look at the Hebrew word translated "believed" and note the range of interpretations for that Hebrew word; "faith/faithful" is one of those words. Your problem is you are attempting to discover what work you do to have faith; and you are not accepting that you can do nothing. It is all done by God.

These two verses demonstrates the use of the terminology and its interchangability:

Romans 4:9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him for righteousness.

 

[LPT]

The words believe , believer , and believing , should be seen as a virus or disease . They are going to take down alot of called out ones .

To say God is going to condemn people for using the word believe is flat out appalling, you need to check your own britches. You are way off line.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes it does. It shows you do none of the work! You can not have faith/belief apart from the Word of God--Gospel. Who brings that Gospel to your ears (hearing first)? Holy Spirit via preachers. God provides the information (Gospel) he wants you to believe or have faith in. Listening (hearing) to God's words compels you to believe or have faith. Who is the object of your belief/faith? Jesus! Once you believe then you are sealed with the Holy Spirit. God has marked as his own. Why do you think the New Testament writers call Christians believers? Because they have no faith? Further, you have a problem, because the Old Testament uses believe or believed for their terminology rather than faith. Look at the Hebrew word translated "believed" and note the range of interpretations for that Hebrew word; "faith/faithful" is one of those words. Your problem is you are attempting to discover what work you do to have faith; and you are not accepting that you can do nothing. It is all done by God.

These two verses demonstrates the use of the terminology and its interchangability:

Romans 4:9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him for righteousness.

The problem with your theory is that the natural man as described in 1 Cor 2:14 cannot hear the gospel and understand it because, without first having the Holy Spirit, he cannot discern spiritual things.

 

[Pisteuo]

The problem with your theory is that the natural man as described in 1 Cor 2:14 cannot hear the gospel and understand it because, without first having the Holy Spirit, he cannot discern spiritual things.

Right FGC , this goes along with what Im presenting .

your correct , the natural man can't dicern God's Word , but more importantly , at the start of the Salvation process , because we don't have the Spirit of Christ yet , God ,His word , and His promises , are not ours to claim yet either .


so if " believing " in God's Word isn't what NT pisteuo or saving Faith is , what is ?

well let's take your opinion and my opinion out of the equation , and go to the Greek dictionary.

saving Faith or faithing ( pisteuo ) is according to the Vines : " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender ." It also says " producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation of truth ."

true saving Faith , " pisteuo " is accually 3 separate and distinct things . And has nothing to do with claiming anything in God's word illegitimately or hey this would even work before God's word was available to the masses before the 1500's .

Bottom line , true Faith and faithing , pistis and pisteuo , can only be in God Himself , the real living person , not in what He did , said , or promises .

 

[Pisteuo]

From my experiences I think the key in so much that "faith is a work" gets overlooked. Without it, it complicates the mystery that the scripture makes known.

Faith and faithing. , Pistis and pisteuo , correctly understood in its application is , " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender ." Two specific and continual actions . One , the continual daily surrendering of our lives to Him . And two , continuously , genuinely , making all our little daily decisions supporting the surrendered life to God . Meaning , we are showing with our actions ( which takes work ) that our life is nolonger ours anymore but His .

In the Greek , they didn't allow pisteuo ( faithing ) to be separated from work or works . But it's not a work or works that has anything to do with trying to replace or better Christs finished work on the cross " Grace " . But somehow , when pisteuo was mistranslated into the English language as believe , believer , and believing , all the sudden " work or works " are no longer allowed to be part of pisteuo in the English . And I say emphatically , it's not works of obedience ! The work is only associated with the Surrendered life , and living a life inspired by such surrender . Submitting a better surrendered life to Him every day .

All this to say I agree with your post garee , in the context presented .