Thank you

[Nehemiah6]

Predestination is God predetermining that Christ would pay the adoption price for those he choose to become his adopted children that will live with him in heaven.

Christ did indeed pay the penalty (or ransom price) for those who would become children of God.

But He went even further. He paid the penalty for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD. And why should anyone have any problem with that when Scripture makes it perfectly clear?

1 JOHN 2

1 My little children, [BELIEVERS] these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
And if any man [ANY CHRISTIAN] sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation
[PERFECT SACRIFICE]
for our sins:
[THOSE OF BELIEVERS]
and not for ours only, but also forthe sins of the whole world.
[WHICH INCLUDES THE UNCOVERTED, THE UNBELIEVING, THE UNGODLY, AND THE WICKED]

Since John was writing by divine inspiration under the power of the Holy Spirit, he was presenting God's truth. Believe it.

 

[CharliRenee]

It is not really that complicated. Just note carefully what is ACTUALLY STATED, not what Calvinists IMAGINE.

...predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son...

Now does this say "predestined to be saved from Hell" or "predestined to be CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON"?

So what exactly does that mean? Since all human beings are born in the image of fallen Adam (with a sin nature and a tendency to sin) God wants to TOTALLY TRANSFORM His children so that they no longer resemble Adam, but they perfectly resemble Christ -- "the image or resemblance of His Son" -- who is "holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners".

Therefore sinners are justified by grace, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and perfected and glorified by Christ at the Resurrection/Rapture. Which means that predestination is NOT for salvation (as falsely taught) but for perfection and glorification.

I like the way you explain somethings so I'm asking u, if u have a moment. U know how he says, not to pray for those doing sin that leads to death, well is the sin unto death difference simply one that is done by an unbeliever. Maybe I should look to this verse

“If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life — to those who commit sins that do not lead to death” (1 John 5:16a). What is the sin that doesn't lead to death, what is the difference?

I apologize if my noggin is too thick. If you have time, I'd appreciate your insight

 

[Nehemiah6]

I like the way you explain somethings so I'm asking u, if u have a moment. U know how he says, not to pray for those doing sin that leads to death, well is the sin unto death difference simply one that is done by an unbeliever. Maybe I should look to this verse

“If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life — to those who commit sins that do not lead to death” (1 John 5:16a). What is the sin that doesn't lead to death, what is the difference?

I apologize if my noggin is too thick. If you have time, I'd appreciate your insight

Once again let's take a close look at the words in that text, keeping in mind that all those addressed would be within one local assembly of believers, and know (or know of) the people within their church.

1. John is addressing believers (Christians) throughout this epistle. Therefore "if anyone" can also be understood as "if any Christian".

2. "His brother" is the key. Since all genuine believers are children of God, they are all within one family as brothers and sisters. So "his brother" means "another Christian". And "brother" there is simply generic, since John was fully aware that there are both brothers and sisters. That is similar to most documents using the generic "he" rather than he/she".

3. "A sin not leading to death" confirms that Christians can and do sin, and John makes this perfectly clear right at the beginning of the epistle -- If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us... If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

4. So the basic principle here is that we are to pray for Christian brothers and sisters who may have sinned, so that they will deal with their sins and turn away from them. It would appear that these are sins known to the whole church. This means addressing our present sins, confessing them to God, and repentance (turning away from sin and evil). The "flesh" (the old Adamic sin nature) is not eradicated when a person is born again, therefore Christians must examine themselves constantly.

5. At the same time, there may be a brother or sister who has sinned, and probably been approached by another Christian or elder about this matter, but has refused to deal with that sin, and has persisted in sinning. God may even chastise this person and there may be no change. So then the remedy is premature death, since this person is ruining God's testimony.

6. This becomes "the sin unto death" and John says that there is no point praying for this person, since he has hardened his heart and will die. That is why Paul warns every Christian to examine themselves before partaking of the Lord's Supper:

1 CORINTHIANS 11
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation [CONDEMNATION] to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [AND MANY DIE PREMATURELY]

 

[CharliRenee]

Once again let's take a close look at the words in that text, keeping in mind that all those addressed would be within one local assembly of believers, and know (or know of) the people within their church.

1. John is addressing believers (Christians) throughout this epistle. Therefore "if anyone" can also be understood as "if any Christian".

2. "His brother" is the key. Since all genuine believers are children of God, they are all within one family as brothers and sisters. So "his brother" means "another Christian". And "brother" there is simply generic, since John was fully aware that there are both brothers and sisters. That is similar to most documents using the generic "he" rather than he/she".

3. "A sin not leading to death" confirms that Christians can and do sin, and John makes this perfectly clear right at the beginning of the epistle -- If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us... If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

4. So the basic principle here is that we are to pray for Christian brothers and sisters who may have sinned, so that they will deal with their sins and turn away from them. It would appear that these are sins known to the whole church. This means addressing our present sins, confessing them to God, and repentance (turning away from sin and evil). The "flesh" (the old Adamic sin nature) is not eradicated when a person is born again, therefore Christians must examine themselves constantly.

5. At the same time, there may be a brother or sister who has sinned, and probably been approached by another Christian or elder about this matter, but has refused to deal with that sin, and has persisted in sinning. God may even chastise this person and there may be no change. So then the remedy is premature death, since this person is ruining God's testimony.

6. This becomes "the sin unto death" and John says that there is no point praying for this person, since he has hardened his heart and will die. That is why Paul warns every Christian to examine themselves before partaking of the Lord's Supper:

1 CORINTHIANS 11
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation [CONDEMNATION] to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [AND MANY DIE PREMATURELY]

Thank you, brother.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

We are not adopted children of God. We are true, and real sons and daughters of God. We have our Father's DNA in us. Adoption in the Scripture is not to be confused with how we speak of adoption today. Adoption in Scripture speaks to our adult son placement. Sonship. (Gal. 4:1-5)

We are born children of God and and then began our maturity process towards being mature adult sons of God.

Quantrill

Jesus is the only begotten Son, we are adopted sons (John 1:14, 1:18, 3:16, 3:18, Heb 11:17, and 1 John 4:9)

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Once again let's take a close look at the words in that text, keeping in mind that all those addressed would be within one local assembly of believers, and know (or know of) the people within their church.

1. John is addressing believers (Christians) throughout this epistle. Therefore "if anyone" can also be understood as "if any Christian".

2. "His brother" is the key. Since all genuine believers are children of God, they are all within one family as brothers and sisters. So "his brother" means "another Christian". And "brother" there is simply generic, since John was fully aware that there are both brothers and sisters. That is similar to most documents using the generic "he" rather than he/she".

3. "A sin not leading to death" confirms that Christians can and do sin, and John makes this perfectly clear right at the beginning of the epistle -- If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us... If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

4. So the basic principle here is that we are to pray for Christian brothers and sisters who may have sinned, so that they will deal with their sins and turn away from them. It would appear that these are sins known to the whole church. This means addressing our present sins, confessing them to God, and repentance (turning away from sin and evil). The "flesh" (the old Adamic sin nature) is not eradicated when a person is born again, therefore Christians must examine themselves constantly.

5. At the same time, there may be a brother or sister who has sinned, and probably been approached by another Christian or elder about this matter, but has refused to deal with that sin, and has persisted in sinning. God may even chastise this person and there may be no change. So then the remedy is premature death, since this person is ruining God's testimony.

6. This becomes "the sin unto death" and John says that there is no point praying for this person, since he has hardened his heart and will die. That is why Paul warns every Christian to examine themselves before partaking of the Lord's Supper:

1 CORINTHIANS 11
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation [CONDEMNATION] to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [AND MANY DIE PREMATURELY]

I hope you don't mind me interjecting. When we have been regenerated and given the Holy Spirit, and then we commit a sin, we become "dead", which means a separation from a good standing with God, until we repent and God forgives us. Nevertheless, if we die a natural death before we repent, we are not going to hell. Christ died on the cross to take away the sins of all that he died for and none of them will go to hell, because he died for "ALL" of their sins. Many times in the scriptures, death is used a figure, not literally.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Christ did indeed pay the penalty (or ransom price) for those who would become children of God.

But He went even further. He paid the penalty for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD. And why should anyone have any problem with that when Scripture makes it perfectly clear?

1 JOHN 2

1 My little children, [BELIEVERS] these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
And if any man [ANY CHRISTIAN] sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation
[PERFECT SACRIFICE]
for our sins:
[THOSE OF BELIEVERS]
and not for ours only, but also forthe sins of the whole world.
[WHICH INCLUDES THE UNCOVERTED, THE UNBELIEVING, THE UNGODLY, AND THE WICKED]

Since John was writing by divine inspiration under the power of the Holy Spirit, he was presenting God's truth. Believe it.

So, you believe that all mankind will go to heaven? I thought Jesus died for only those that his Father gave him. (John 6) and Jesus said that he would not lose even one of those he died for.

 

[Quantrill]

Jesus is the only begotten Son, we are adopted sons (John 1:14, 1:18, 3:16, 3:18, Heb 11:17, and 1 John 4:9)

The 'only begotten' refers to Jesus as the Covenant Son. The One in Whom all the promises are found. Just like with Isaac who was Abraham's son. God called him the 'only begotten' (Gen. 22:2). But he wasn't the only son of Abraham. Ishmael was also his son. But as far as God was concerned, it was Isaac in whom all the promises are passed on.

So it is with Jesus Christ. He is the 'Only Begotten' as the Convenant Son. But concerning our relationship to God, Jesus is the 'firstborn among many brethren'. See the difference. Jesus is the first born, meaning there are others to follow who will be born.

We are not adopted into the family of God. We are born into it. We are true sons and daughters of God.

Quantrill

 

[Deade]

I think when a new believer comes to Christ and learns about predestination that they ought to put that in file folder marked "For Future Reference." Trying to understand that just might keep us from making good choices.

I think we mistakenly think we can instantly unlock all the mysteries of how God works with His created universe. Either all scripture fits together into a coherent picture or we maybe just have misinterpreted it. We should quit trying to say this says this or that says that, definitely. Sometimes just note, and move on.

The hardest to overcome is our preconceived notions on what scripture really says. Traditional dogmas get in the way of our learning new truths. Satan has had a great deal of influence on traditional doctrines. Even the early creeds have errors misread into them. If we are to really understand what scripture tells us, we must have the Teacher: the Holy Spirit.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The 'only begotten' refers to Jesus as the Covenant Son. The One in Whom all the promises are found. Just like with Isaac who was Abraham's son. God called him the 'only begotten' (Gen. 22:2). But he wasn't the only son of Abraham. Ishmael was also his son. But as far as God was concerned, it was Isaac in whom all the promises are passed on.

So it is with Jesus Christ. He is the 'Only Begotten' as the Convenant Son. But concerning our relationship to God, Jesus is the 'firstborn among many brethren'. See the difference. Jesus is the first born, meaning there are others to follow who will be born.

We are not adopted into the family of God. We are born into it. We are true sons and daughters of God.

Quantrill

Then, how do you explain Eph 1:5?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I think when a new believer comes to Christ and learns about predestination that they ought to put that in file folder marked "For Future Reference." Trying to understand that just might keep us from making good choices.

I think we mistakenly think we can instantly unlock all the mysteries of how God works with His created universe. Either all scripture fits together into a coherent picture or we maybe just have misinterpreted it. We should quit trying to say this says this or that says that, definitely. Sometimes just note, and move on.

The hardest to overcome is our preconceived notions on what scripture really says. Traditional dogmas get in the way of our learning new truths. Satan has had a great deal of influence on traditional doctrines. Even the early creeds have errors misread into them. If we are to really understand what scripture tells us, we must have the Teacher: the Holy Spirit.

It is true, that none of us can discern scripture unless the Holy Ghost reveals. We are to study, to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the word of truth, as revealed by the comforter within us. In matters of Jesus's doctrine, all scriptures must harmonize or our interpretation is wrong.

 

[CharliRenee]

I think when a new believer comes to Christ and learns about predestination that they ought to put that in file folder marked "For Future Reference." Trying to understand that just might keep us from making good choices.

I think we mistakenly think we can instantly unlock all the mysteries of how God works with His created universe. Either all scripture fits together into a coherent picture or we maybe just have misinterpreted it. We should quit trying to say this says this or that says that, definitely. Sometimes just note, and move on.

The hardest to overcome is our preconceived notions on what scripture really says. Traditional dogmas get in the way of our learning new truths. Satan has had a great deal of influence on traditional doctrines. Even the early creeds have errors misread into them. If we are to really understand what scripture tells us, we must have the Teacher: the Holy Spirit.

What you are expressing touches exactly what I'm accepting. To just keep digging and seeking, the treasures found are already a part of me. As I grow more and more, I am becoming that which He has for me.

 

[CharliRenee]

It is true, that none of us can discern scripture unless the Holy Ghost reveals. We are to study, to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the word of truth, as revealed by the comforter within us. In matters of Jesus's doctrine, all scriptures must harmonize or our interpretation is wrong.

I couldn't agree more, but then why so many interpretations by so many who have help from the Holy Spirit's revealing obtain so many different opposing conclusions? We must remain humble to be teachable, we are called to be of one accord, with the one truth of Him. How can we find that harmony if the opposing views are unwilling to find harmony in their perceived truths?

 

[Quantrill]

Then, how do you explain Eph 1:5?

The word 'children' there speaks to sons or sonship. Look it up.

Quantrill

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The 'only begotten' refers to Jesus as the Covenant Son. The One in Whom all the promises are found. Just like with Isaac who was Abraham's son. God called him the 'only begotten' (Gen. 22:2). But he wasn't the only son of Abraham. Ishmael was also his son. But as far as God was concerned, it was Isaac in whom all the promises are passed on.

So it is with Jesus Christ. He is the 'Only Begotten' as the Convenant Son. But concerning our relationship to God, Jesus is the 'firstborn among many brethren'. See the difference. Jesus is the first born, meaning there are others to follow who will be born.

We are not adopted into the family of God. We are born into it. We are true sons and daughters of God.

Quantrill

Can you give me a scripture documenting that "only begotten refers to the covenant Son"? Romans 8:29 The firstborn ls talking about "whom he did foreknow" The called.

 

[Quantrill]

Can you give me a scripture documenting that "only begotten refers to the covenant Son"? Romans 8:29 The firstborn ls talking about "whom he did foreknow" The called.

I did in (Gen. 22:2). Compare that with (Rom. 8:29) that I forgot to document in my last post where it says, Jesus is the 'firstborn among many brethren'.

In one instance Jesus is the 'only begotten'. In another, He is the 'first born among many brethren'.

We are not adopted into the family of God. We are born into the family of God. Real sons and daughters of God...just like the Man Jesus Christ...our Brother.

Quantrill

 

[CharliRenee]

I did in (Gen. 22:2). Compare that with (Rom. 8:29) that I forgot to document in my last post where it says, Jesus is the 'firstborn among many brethren'.

In one instance Jesus is the 'only begotten'. In another, He is the 'first born among many brethren'.

We are not adopted into the family of God. We are born into the family of God. Real sons and daughters of God...just like the Man Jesus Christ...our Brother.

Quantrill

Doesn't this take the diety out of Yeshua, and if it doesn't, doesn't it elevate us to His diety status?

 

[Nehemiah6]

So, you believe that all mankind will go to heaven?

I don't believe I suggested or hinted at that. All MAY go to Heaven if all will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31). But ALL WILL NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16)

This is called "the obedience of faith" by Paul: But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith...(Rom 16:26)

Since God has COMMANDED all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) the response to the Gospel is actually an act of obedience to God. But all will not obey the Gospel, and will pay the price: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:15,16)

I thought Jesus died for only those that his Father gave him. (John 6) and Jesus said that he would not lose even one of those he died for.

Let's examine that passage closely and see what is being said.

1. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
This refers back to God's foreknowledge as to who will believe ("elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" -- 1 Pet 1:2). And in God's eyes, those will become a part of the Church -- the Bride of Christ. The Father has already given the Bride to the Son (as typified in the marriage of Isaac and Rebekah, since Abraham arranged for that match and God used Abraham's servant).

Since God has already given His Son His Bride (in His foreknowledge), therefore they SHALL come to Him, since they will believe on Him and be saved. And whoever comes to Christ in humility and simple faith will be accepted as a child of God. If all would believe, then all would be given to Christ: Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else (Isa 45:22)

2. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Now this speaks of the eternal security of the believer, since God not only justifies, but the Holy Spirit regenerates and sanctifies, and Christ perfects and glorifies the one who puts his faith in Him. The resurrection of the saints is also guaranteed by God.

3. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This speaks of the fact that the gift of eternal life is guaranteed to each and every believer. At the same times since "whosoever will may come" to Christ everyone also means anyone who obeys the Gospel. And the resurrection of the saints as perfected and glorified is also guaranteed here.

 

[Quantrill]

Doesn't this take the diety out of Yeshua, and if it doesn't, doesn't it elevate us to His diety status?

No, this does not affect the deity of Christ. But it placed the Son in a willful place of submission to the Father eternally. (1 Cor. 15:28) "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Yes, it certainly does elevate us to a lofty position. Sounds blasphemous to think about. But this indeed was God's purpose from the beginning. Real sons and daughters. Of Him. In other words, Adam and Eve in the garden was never the end of what God was doing. It was simply a means to the end. I believe the old story, 'Pinocchio' caught this theme.

(Heb. 2:11) "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren."

Quantrill

 

[CharliRenee]

No, this does not affect the deity of Christ. But it placed the Son in a willful place of submission to the Father eternally. (1 Cor. 15:28) "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Yes, it certainly does elevate us to a lofty position. Sounds blasphemous to think about. But this indeed was God's purpose from the beginning. Real sons and daughters. Of Him. In other words, Adam and Eve in the garden was never the end of what God was doing. It was simply a means to the end. I believe the old story, 'Pinocchio' caught this theme.

(Heb. 2:11) "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren."

Quantrill

Your words were so well received. I accept the accuracy of this truth so much. God Bless