Does scripture given to Israel apply to saved gentiles?
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Yes, God did faithfully keep His promise to the Jews...
1- I will make you into a great nation. Physically speaking, they grew beginning with Abraham's son Isaac into a a great number of people.
2- To your offspring I will give this land. Again, physically speaking, they possessed many lands.
3- All peoples (nationalities) on earth will be blessed through you. Through Abraham came Christ, in whom all nationalities can become God's people- spiritually not physically, and as they become descendants of Abraham, and therefore spiritually jews, they (genuine israel) will inherit the spiritual land of Canaan (heaven). Therefore heaven is not promised to physical jews, but to those who are grafted into the vine- no matter what nationality they are, including Israélite. In the new testament you are not born into a physical birthright to be God's people. The israel Revelation speaks of are for those who obey Christ, not for Jews who deny that He even came in the flesh.
1 John 4:2 Every spirit that confesses that Jesus has come in the flesh is from God.
2 John 1:7 Those who deny Jesus has come in the flesh are the antichrist.
Therefore, being a jew only by physical means does not meet the qualifications of the promise of heaven. The promise of heaven is to the spiritual jew- whether they are physically jew or not.
1- I will make you into a great nation. Physically speaking, they grew beginning with Abraham's son Isaac into a a great number of people.
2- To your offspring I will give this land. Again, physically speaking, they possessed many lands.
3- All peoples (nationalities) on earth will be blessed through you. Through Abraham came Christ, in whom all nationalities can become God's people- spiritually not physically, and as they become descendants of Abraham, and therefore spiritually jews, they (genuine israel) will inherit the spiritual land of Canaan (heaven). Therefore heaven is not promised to physical jews, but to those who are grafted into the vine- no matter what nationality they are, including Israélite. In the new testament you are not born into a physical birthright to be God's people. The israel Revelation speaks of are for those who obey Christ, not for Jews who deny that He even came in the flesh.
1 John 4:2 Every spirit that confesses that Jesus has come in the flesh is from God.
2 John 1:7 Those who deny Jesus has come in the flesh are the antichrist.
Therefore, being a jew only by physical means does not meet the qualifications of the promise of heaven. The promise of heaven is to the spiritual jew- whether they are physically jew or not.
By "all instructions" I am reporting that scripture is written for those who believe. It includes all races and colors of people, God created all and speaks to all.
The world was 2,000 years old when God created the Hebrew race through the gentile Abraham. At that time man had forgotten everything about God, all nations had created their own god saying that idols or the sun was God. Abraham heard God and established a people who worshipped Him. These people were the only ones who knew anything of God for the next 2,000 years. The world was about 4,000 years old at the time of Christ. (Before the 4,000 years this world was a dark place without man as we are today.)
It is only because of what God did with the Jews and that God gave His Son through the Jews that we have salvation today. The Jewish race has not always been faithful to God and they are not faithful today. That does not cancel out what the race has done or God's blessing to them.
If you will google information about the Jewish race you will find what the special blessing means in terms of human achievement in this world.
The world was 2,000 years old when God created the Hebrew race through the gentile Abraham. At that time man had forgotten everything about God, all nations had created their own god saying that idols or the sun was God. Abraham heard God and established a people who worshipped Him. These people were the only ones who knew anything of God for the next 2,000 years. The world was about 4,000 years old at the time of Christ. (Before the 4,000 years this world was a dark place without man as we are today.)
It is only because of what God did with the Jews and that God gave His Son through the Jews that we have salvation today. The Jewish race has not always been faithful to God and they are not faithful today. That does not cancel out what the race has done or God's blessing to them.
If you will google information about the Jewish race you will find what the special blessing means in terms of human achievement in this world.
I have repeated over and over and over that it we are saved only through grace, yet this person persists on lying about my posts. I think the person is upset that I believe scriptures telling us God wants us to obey law and I believe God gave us the Sabbath but I cannot find any scripture saying that God gave the first day of the week for our Sabbath. I also believe the scripture saying that drunkards, thieves, etc. will not be great in the kingdom of heaven. Scripture tells us these things, and they are true at the same time that it is ONLY through grace we are saved and grace is given to sinners.
If this thread reports scripture accurately it is not a time waster, and the accurate reporting is the only important thing. The person reporting scripture happens to be a 93 year old woman who has spent countless hours, months, years deep in the study of scripture. I don't give a fig what you think of me, and I care deeply that you check my reporting of scripture. God is important, I am not.
that is a good question.
like this- gentiles never had the law, Paul said so in His letter to the Romans. the Acts 15 council, in the letter they drafted , did NOT say keep the Sabbath, and when John said He was " in the Sprit on the Lord's Day ". he did NOT say Sabbath, a different greek word is there.
I could go on and on, but, maybe you can explain why folks like you think that Sabbath keeping is required for Christ Followers when the N.T. does NOT say so.
like this- gentiles never had the law, Paul said so in His letter to the Romans. the Acts 15 council, in the letter they drafted , did NOT say keep the Sabbath, and when John said He was " in the Sprit on the Lord's Day ". he did NOT say Sabbath, a different greek word is there.
I could go on and on, but, maybe you can explain why folks like you think that Sabbath keeping is required for Christ Followers when the N.T. does NOT say so.
What people need to do is understand which ordinances were done away with the cross.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
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Accurate reporting means understanding the difference between Israel and the Church AS GOD AS REVEALED. But your OP was not accurate.
Here is what is accurate:
1. We are adopted as children of God, not into Israel.
2. We are grafted into believing Israel, "the good olive tree".
3. We are placed in the Body of Christ (the Church) where there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles.
4. All the promises to redeemed and restored Israel are different from the promises to the Church.
Here is what is accurate:
1. We are adopted as children of God, not into Israel.
2. We are grafted into believing Israel, "the good olive tree".
3. We are placed in the Body of Christ (the Church) where there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles.
4. All the promises to redeemed and restored Israel are different from the promises to the Church.
My hope is not to be contentious and I'm still trying to fully understand your line of thinking, as it as served me well in the past but...
On the contrary, the real Jew is one inwardly; and true circumcision is of the heart, spiritual not literal; so that his praise comes not from other people but from God.
Romans (Rom) 2:29 CJB
I read several translations and they all agree with the CJB. I would say, according to this, we are spiritual Jews, eh?
On the contrary, the real Jew is one inwardly; and true circumcision is of the heart, spiritual not literal; so that his praise comes not from other people but from God.
Romans (Rom) 2:29 CJB
I read several translations and they all agree with the CJB. I would say, according to this, we are spiritual Jews, eh?
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I do not consider you contentious at all. No problem.
In (Rom. 1:17) Paul has made a statement that "the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." He has much to say about this. He is going to pick up again with this in (Rom. 3:21). But he digresses at the moment to explain how the wrath of God is revealed. (Rom. 1:18) And this takes you all the way to (Rom. 3:20).
The wrath of God is said to be against those 'who hold the truth in unrighteousness'. So from (Rom 1:18-3:20) Paul explains how the world, consisting of Gentiles and Jews, hold the truth in unrighteousness.
So, in (Rom. 1:18-32) Paul shows how the whole Gentile world knows the truth but have rejected that truth, with terrible wrath upon them.
In (Rom. 2:1-16) Paul is addressing the moral man who agrees with what he has said in (1:18-32) and sees himself as above such conduct. Paul assures him that he is not above such conduct and though he presents an outward morality, he is just as guilty and thus holds the truth in unrighteousness, and the wrath of God is upon him also.
In (Rom. 2:17-3:20) Paul is addressing the Jew. The Jews trust they are in good shape because they have the law of God. But Paul tells them they break the Law all the time, so just being a Jew and having the Law doesn't matter. They are just as guilty and they hold the truth in unrighteousness and the wrath of God is upon them.
It is during this that Paul makes the statement that "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Paul is not saying to these Jews that the Gentiles who are inwardly right with God and have the circumcision of the heart in the spirit become Jews. He is telling the Jews, that the true Jew will have this circumcision of the heart in the spirit.
In other words, Paul is not saying the Gentile believers become Jews. He is saying those who are Jews by birth but are not right inwardly, are not Jews. Their claim to being Jews and having the Law is null and void. The true Jew is the one who is Jew by birth and has a right heart toward God.
Quantrill
In (Rom. 1:17) Paul has made a statement that "the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." He has much to say about this. He is going to pick up again with this in (Rom. 3:21). But he digresses at the moment to explain how the wrath of God is revealed. (Rom. 1:18) And this takes you all the way to (Rom. 3:20).
The wrath of God is said to be against those 'who hold the truth in unrighteousness'. So from (Rom 1:18-3:20) Paul explains how the world, consisting of Gentiles and Jews, hold the truth in unrighteousness.
So, in (Rom. 1:18-32) Paul shows how the whole Gentile world knows the truth but have rejected that truth, with terrible wrath upon them.
In (Rom. 2:1-16) Paul is addressing the moral man who agrees with what he has said in (1:18-32) and sees himself as above such conduct. Paul assures him that he is not above such conduct and though he presents an outward morality, he is just as guilty and thus holds the truth in unrighteousness, and the wrath of God is upon him also.
In (Rom. 2:17-3:20) Paul is addressing the Jew. The Jews trust they are in good shape because they have the law of God. But Paul tells them they break the Law all the time, so just being a Jew and having the Law doesn't matter. They are just as guilty and they hold the truth in unrighteousness and the wrath of God is upon them.
It is during this that Paul makes the statement that "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Paul is not saying to these Jews that the Gentiles who are inwardly right with God and have the circumcision of the heart in the spirit become Jews. He is telling the Jews, that the true Jew will have this circumcision of the heart in the spirit.
In other words, Paul is not saying the Gentile believers become Jews. He is saying those who are Jews by birth but are not right inwardly, are not Jews. Their claim to being Jews and having the Law is null and void. The true Jew is the one who is Jew by birth and has a right heart toward God.
Quantrill
The reference was... in spirit not in letter (not literally) tells me that clarification goes for all, because there would be no need to say not literally (letter) if he was talking to only the Jewish community, right? I feel adding the letter or literal component is key to understanding or to knowing the hearts of all men He is after. But still make a good arguement. Here is my problem, or confusion on this debate that always leaves me perplexed, where I struggle to connect the dots.
The message is brought to the gentiles via the Jews. They reject, then to the gentiles. I understand Gentiles will and are key to bringing His ppl back to Him. I know from Zaceriah there will come a time when the gentiles will...
thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"
I think we are starting to see this happening now.
Where I get confused in these discussions is...
Isn't the message to Jews and gentiles, to all, the exact same...Faith in Yeshua and righteousness (right standing) in Him, alone, that Yud Heh Vav Heh's Son within is our only hope in this fallen world and our corruptable bodies? What is it exactly that you believe is the difference at this point and how it affects all our future hopes? Does this speak to end times or ... My transparency of my ignorance is blatant, lol, but I'm so open to understanding.
The message is brought to the gentiles via the Jews. They reject, then to the gentiles. I understand Gentiles will and are key to bringing His ppl back to Him. I know from Zaceriah there will come a time when the gentiles will...
thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"
I think we are starting to see this happening now.
Where I get confused in these discussions is...
Isn't the message to Jews and gentiles, to all, the exact same...Faith in Yeshua and righteousness (right standing) in Him, alone, that Yud Heh Vav Heh's Son within is our only hope in this fallen world and our corruptable bodies? What is it exactly that you believe is the difference at this point and how it affects all our future hopes? Does this speak to end times or ... My transparency of my ignorance is blatant, lol, but I'm so open to understanding.
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Is it that the ten men from each nation will take the one Jew declaring God is with the Jews a reference to the New Haven and New Earth and the Jews are all who believe Yeshua?
I believe, have always believed this to be so, even before I became accustomed to the Hebrew name for our Savior the Reedemer of Yah………...Yeshua. All blessings...
I believe, have always believed this to be so, even before I became accustomed to the Hebrew name for our Savior the Reedemer of Yah………...Yeshua. All blessings...
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Concerning this matter you can disagree and still get to go to heaven.
But here again, the contrast is between different types of Jews. One observes the law and letter but his heart and spirit are not right. One observes the law and letter and his spirit is right. The Jew who observes the law and letter and whose heart is right is the true Jew.
The Gentile believer comes into this same work of the heart and spirit. It doesn't make him a Jew. It just makes him saved also. It makes him part of the Church at this time.
Yes, the message to all at this time is believe on Jesus Christ as the Son of God, your Lord and Saviour. That is because at this time the Church age is still going on. Prior to this, this being the Church age, which began at Pentacost, the message was 'Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand'. (Matt. 3:1), (Matt. 4:17), (Matt. 10:7)
The importance of what I believe in this matter concerns God's promises to Israel. They are eternal promises. Thus the Church does not replace Israel. The Church is a distinctly new and different body of believers composed of Jew and Gentile. And usually those who believe we become Jews when we believe, also believe we replace Israel as the people of God. In other words, we become 'spiritual Israel'.
Both views are by well meaning believers. It does not affect our eternal state at all. But I believe it will affect our understanding here of the Bible. And isn't that what we want? It provides great pleasure, when you can't get through a door that is locked, to find the key.
It is my opinion that we are seeing the numbers of Christians diminish because we are getting near those last days you speak of. And I don't think it is just because the world is becoming more worldly. Though this works together with what God is doing as His timing is perfect. I believe the Jews in Israel are going to start becoming more and more conscience of their need for their God. Just as the Gentile world is starting to turn more and more away from God. Because there will come a time when 'all Israel shall be saved'. (Rom. 11:26). And again, 'all Israel' is the the Jew who is right with God at that time. The Church age will have ended by then and Israel will once again be a nation of believing Jews.
Quantrill
But here again, the contrast is between different types of Jews. One observes the law and letter but his heart and spirit are not right. One observes the law and letter and his spirit is right. The Jew who observes the law and letter and whose heart is right is the true Jew.
The Gentile believer comes into this same work of the heart and spirit. It doesn't make him a Jew. It just makes him saved also. It makes him part of the Church at this time.
Yes, the message to all at this time is believe on Jesus Christ as the Son of God, your Lord and Saviour. That is because at this time the Church age is still going on. Prior to this, this being the Church age, which began at Pentacost, the message was 'Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand'. (Matt. 3:1), (Matt. 4:17), (Matt. 10:7)
The importance of what I believe in this matter concerns God's promises to Israel. They are eternal promises. Thus the Church does not replace Israel. The Church is a distinctly new and different body of believers composed of Jew and Gentile. And usually those who believe we become Jews when we believe, also believe we replace Israel as the people of God. In other words, we become 'spiritual Israel'.
Both views are by well meaning believers. It does not affect our eternal state at all. But I believe it will affect our understanding here of the Bible. And isn't that what we want? It provides great pleasure, when you can't get through a door that is locked, to find the key.
It is my opinion that we are seeing the numbers of Christians diminish because we are getting near those last days you speak of. And I don't think it is just because the world is becoming more worldly. Though this works together with what God is doing as His timing is perfect. I believe the Jews in Israel are going to start becoming more and more conscience of their need for their God. Just as the Gentile world is starting to turn more and more away from God. Because there will come a time when 'all Israel shall be saved'. (Rom. 11:26). And again, 'all Israel' is the the Jew who is right with God at that time. The Church age will have ended by then and Israel will once again be a nation of believing Jews.
Quantrill
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