Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

[rlm68]

So in otheer words, You do not believe in eternal secruity.

Does yoru father kick you out of his family (or do you kick your kids out) when he says do not take a cookee. And you did (or something like this) and you did not think you did anything wrong?

Why do you hold God to a lower standard. That sad.

It's not about eternal security...because I know God wants me to be with Him forever.
It's about ME choosing to believe in God and having faith in Him.
God wants me to be saved, but it is all about what I want (do I want to believe in God, accept God, have faith in God)...
If I choose I do not want anything to do with God, God cannot GO AGAINST MY WILL!!

 

[Chester]

It's not about eternal security...because I know God wants me to be with Him forever.
It's about ME choosing to believe in God and having faith in Him.
God wants me to be saved, but it is all about what I want (do I want to believe in God, accept God, have faith in God)...
If I choose I do not want anything to do with God, God cannot GO AGAINST MY WILL!!

God can go against your will - He can do anything - but what would that gain Him? He wants your heart, not just you serving Him as a slave - He will woo and woo and love and love some more to capture your heart and your will.

 

[rlm68]

God can go against your will - He can do anything - but what would that gain Him? He wants your heart, not just you serving Him as a slave - He will woo and woo and love and love some more to capture your heart and your will.

AMEN, and my point exactly!!

 

[Argueless]

This concept of forgiving those who do you evil gets hard when it caused destruction of family. I lived that. My wife and I adopted 4 children and their birth father who in court said he wanted nothing to do with them ended up causing 3 of them to run away. In the end we had to give up those 3. Later all 3 ran away from him and ended up being psychopaths. They had no empathy for others and were very manipulative to get what they wanted to the extent of stealing and destruction of property of others including their siblings. 2 ended up in jail 1 or more times. Seeing this happen caused my wife, remaining daughter and me great pain. The blessing of the remaining daughter helped us through this pain. It took me months to forgive him.

Thank you for sharing us your story.

Unlike us, it really amazes me to see little children, how quickly they can say sorry and after being beaten or punished, how they easily forget and goes back to a loving relationship with you.

What I learned from this parable is that our merciful, just and loving God hears us whenever we ask for forgiveness for the sins we have committed. (Matthew 6:9-15, 1 john 5:14)

As servants of God who were justified by His Grace and mercy through FAITH in the One whom He has sent to suffer and DIE on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins, our LORD and Savoir Jesus Christ, it is our DUTY to fear Him and OBEY His commandments.(Ecclesiastes 12:13) And His command is to LOVE GOD and our brothers.

.. Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another AS HE COMMANDED US. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. 1 John 3:21-24

Those who believes in the Son of God must LOVE one another.

...We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God MUST also love his brother. 1 John 4:19-21

...This is how we know what love is:Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.1 John 3:16-18

"LOVE IS WALKING IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS." 2 john 1:6

If anyone CLAIMS to be saved by Grace through FAITH but does not OBEY God who gave us these commandments to LOVE, will that person be saved?

If we do not FORGIVE those who sinned against us, will God forgive us our sins? And if God will not FORGIVE us our sins, will we be saved?

To FORGIVE those who sinned against us is part of loving one another AS HE COMMANDED US TO OBEY.

So if anyone OBEYS GOD'S COMMANDMENTS and not just CLAIM to have FAITH ALONE, will he not be saved.

"As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain.2 Corinthians 6:1, Jude 1:4
... but HUMBLY accept the WORD planted in you." James 1:21

and...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Ephesians 5:6

 

[dcontroversal]

Why do you think Peter wept so bitterly as Luke indicates?
Because he had done Christ wrong. The scripture does not have to indicate Peter sought forgiveness, his sorrow and weeping bitterly is obvious he repented.

I have been sorrowful for things I have done that it caused me to weep like I assume Peter did. And during my time of weeping, I was very sorry for what I had done. To me, this by Peter is not only acknowledging he knew he did wrong, but weeping as he did, he clearly was sorry. That is as clear as it gets to repenting.

If Peter knew he was forgiven, there would be no need to cry in sorrow like he did. He clearly repented!!

One of the biggest problems with words on a page....everyone assumes they know something....you can lose the exclamation marks and then show me where I said for sure that Peter did not repent....and people weep daily over many errors, sins and or evil yet without repentance.....

 

[Quantrill]

Quantril, this would be double jeopardy. How can you ask God to forgive you for that which He has already remitted? As Hebrews says, "where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." There is no forgiveness outside of the blood of Christ. It is the only means by which remission/forgiveness is truly granted through faith (without the shedding of blood, there is no remission).

What you're teaching is known as "parental forgiveness" and it implies that the Lord holds our sins against us. At one point in time I was committing a sin and one day the Lord spoke to me (of that sin) and said, "I hold not these sins against you." I didn't ask for forgiveness, didn't confess my sin for forgiveness or anything of the sort. He wanted to let me know that He has forgiven me. That I stand redeemed and reconciled before Him, based upon His Son.

If we say that we must ask God to forgive us any sin, then Christ would have to go back on to the cross. That He will not do. There is no more offering for sin. He became the sacrifice, rose from the dead, and now sits on the Father's right hand. He has an eternal priesthood, whereby He is the mediator between God and man. His blood is sufficient for sin (all sin that could ever exist). This is why He did ONE sacrifice, and thats it. If it wasn't sufficient for all sin scripture teaches (in Hebrews) that He would have to suffer since the foundation of the world (being that He is the sacrifice for sin). However, praise God, His blood isn't common, it isn't like the blood of bulls and goats incapable of taking away sin, but has granted us remission (forever).

In respect to fellowship, sin is a hindrance upon our destiny. We do need to repent, yes, the Lord will address the elephant in the room if you're committing sin. He desires better for us. It is His process of sanctification, and He will continue to sanctify you. Yet, do not think for a moment that you're condemned in any respect. He remembers our sins no more, in that He doesn't hold them against us. He has made this a part of the new covenant. Its in the fine details! Is is gracious of Him, founded in the providence of Christ's sacrifice.

Because remittance is not forgiveness. I agree there is no forgiveness without the blood of Jesus Christ. So? There is no walk of sanctification without the blood of Jesus Christ. There is no being golorified without the blood of Jesus Christ.

No, what I am teaching is (1 John 1:9). You keep confusing justification with sanctification. I have been very clear that this is about your sanctification. It has nothing to do with your eternal life. That is secured. It does however, affect your walk here. So, no, I am not putting Christ back on the Cross.

Yes, we need to repent if we sinned against God. I have never indicated that we are condemned because we need to confess our sins. You are reading that in. Yes, God remembers our sins no more as He has dealt with them. That doesn't mean He doesn't know when you're sinning. He does. And He has given us the confession of our sins as a way to restore our walk with Him.

On this note of 'repentance', what do you do when God does not allow you to repent? Isn't (Heb. 6:1-6) clear that God may not allow it. (6:3) "And this will we do, if God permit," (4-6) "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened...if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance...." What now?

Quantrill

 

[preston39]

Nope.

Does not produce fruit

Does not mean hell. If it does Jesus contradicts himself. And he can not keep his own promise.

I wish yu who think you can lose salvation would see you are mocking God ay8ing he is unable to keep his promises. One which is that he hld us in his hands, and NO ONE ( we are someone) can snatch us.

If you think you can snatch yourself from Jesus hads, again, I think you do not Know who and what God is.

You asked God to do something in faith when he saved you.. He will keep that promise.

e...,
That is a pathetic accusation when you take away G-d's authority to...judge...after our earthly death...by declaring we can declare ourselves ...OSAS,,,,saved...when in fact the Bible teaches we are ...born again...while on this earth.

How can you....?...... I doubt G-d is very happy with you usurping His authority.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's not about eternal security...because I know God wants me to be with Him forever.
It's about ME choosing to believe in God and having faith in Him.
God wants me to be saved, but it is all about what I want (do I want to believe in God, accept God, have faith in God)...
If I choose I do not want anything to do with God, God cannot GO AGAINST MY WILL!!

Well let me help.

If you do not yet believe, repent and say yes to God. Recieve him and you will recieve the right to be called gods child

If you have believed in him, then trust that what he says about his children is true.

No one stops believing a person unless that person continually lets them down. God will never let you down, so if you really have faiht in him, you will never lose faith. The fact if you think you can shoudl make you wonder if you trust him at all..

 

[garee]

Can a true born again christian Deny Christ and if they cou;d why would they?

If he has begun the good work of salvation in us he will finish it till the end. We are to put zero confidence in our flesh .When we do deny Him in unbelief no faith. He will deny working in our heart and giving us His Sabbath rest . But in the end of the matter again if he has begun the good work he will finfish it represneting a work he perform in us.

2 Timothy 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV)

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers;

I have not looked at the last part of that verse. What do you think the meaning is as to "subverting of the hearers"?

 

[Hevosmies]

and people weep daily over many errors, sins and or evil yet without repentance.....

Yes! Paul talks about this here:

2 Cor 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

two kinds of sorrows there!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If he has begun the good work of salvation in us he will finish it till the end. We are to put zero confidence in our flesh .When we do deny Him in unbelief no faith. He will deny working in our heart and giving us His Sabbath rest . But in the end of the matter again if he has begun the good work he will finfish it represneting a work he perform in us.

2 Timothy 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV)

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers;

I have not looked at the last part of that verse. What do you think the meaning is as to "subverting of the hearers"?

The word in the greek is katastrophe, The word probably looks familiar. It means to destroy or subvert or to severely damage

I think the author is telling us not to fight (Strive) about words or arguing about foolish things which do not bring about gain for ourselves, but causes damage to the ones who are listening to the foolish disutes about non essentials.

And example I can think of is the earths age, when people get so heated in discusions with peole who do not believe as they do. And start to be seriously divided. it not nly causes no prophit or gain to the ones arging, but can destroy or be a catastrophe to the people listening who do not know God. Possibly causing them to walk away and never come back.

 

[rlm68]

Well let me help.

If you do not yet believe, repent and say yes to God. Recieve him and you will recieve the right to be called gods child

If you have believed in him, then trust that what he says about his children is true.

No one stops believing a person unless that person continually lets them down. God will never let you down, so if you really have faiht in him, you will never lose faith. The fact if you think you can shoudl make you wonder if you trust him at all..

LOL,
I am generalizing here. And No, I cannot see myself ever losing hope, faith, trust in God.

 

[rlm68]

One of the biggest problems with words on a page....everyone assumes they know something....you can lose the exclamation marks and then show me where I said for sure that Peter did not repent....and people weep daily over many errors, sins and or evil yet without repentance.....

The key is knowing that as a Jew 2,000 years ago before Christ came onto the scene, Peter was already saved through the LAW and yearly sin offering. So Peter already knew what it was to have your sins forgiven through burnt offerings. After being with Christ, Peter would have transitioned to understanding God wanted personal relationships. But at the time he denied Christ, he would have always known to repent via the LAW.

 

[dcontroversal]

The key is knowing that as a Jew 2,000 years ago before Christ came onto the scene, Peter was already saved through the LAW and yearly sin offering. So Peter already knew what it was to have your sins forgiven through burnt offerings. After being with Christ, Peter would have transitioned to understanding God wanted personal relationships. But at the time he denied Christ, he would have always known to repent via the LAW.

The bolded is false...NO one was saved that way ever......O.T. believers looked forward in faith to the cross....sorry...law keeping drivel and sacrifical animals did not save one soul.............

 

[rlm68]

The bolded is false...NO one was saved that way ever......O.T. believers looked forward in faith to the cross....sorry...law keeping drivel and sacrifical animals did not save one soul.............

Yes, they had their hopes upon the one day coming Messiah, indeed!!

And I see what you're doing by adding the shed BLOOD of Christ. But, from Moses to the prophets, they were indeed saved. David confirms that within the Book of Psalms. After all, the LAW was for them. Christ opened the doorway for the Gentiles.

 

[BenFTW]

Because remittance is not forgiveness. I agree there is no forgiveness without the blood of Jesus Christ. So? There is no walk of sanctification without the blood of Jesus Christ. There is no being golorified without the blood of Jesus Christ.

No, what I am teaching is (1 John 1:9). You keep confusing justification with sanctification. I have been very clear that this is about your sanctification. It has nothing to do with your eternal life. That is secured. It does however, affect your walk here. So, no, I am not putting Christ back on the Cross.

Yes, we need to repent if we sinned against God. I have never indicated that we are condemned because we need to confess our sins. You are reading that in. Yes, God remembers our sins no more as He has dealt with them. That doesn't mean He doesn't know when you're sinning. He does. And He has given us the confession of our sins as a way to restore our walk with Him.

On this note of 'repentance', what do you do when God does not allow you to repent? Isn't (Heb. 6:1-6) clear that God may not allow it. (6:3) "And this will we do, if God permit," (4-6) "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened...if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance...." What now?

Quantrill

Where do you get this idea that God is waiting for you to ask for forgiveness to be good with Him again (i.e., parental forgiveness)? Where in the NT epistles of Paul, for example, do you see any mention of what would be an extremely important doctrine (to restore fellowship through sin confession)? In all of these epistles so much emphasis is placed upon our walk, walking in the Spirit, and who we are in Christ (as children of God, redeemed, forgiven, etc) and how it is we are dead to sin and alive unto God. No mention in our walk about the confession of sin to receive forgiveness, on a fellowship level.

Where I believe you err, is that what you assume is a transaction by which your confession grants you forgiveness is that confession grants you transparency, and permits the Lord to let you know He forgives you (not because of your confession) but because you are forgiven in Christ. I know, you're screaming right now about sanctification, and fellowship but such a teaching is contradictory to the reconciliation that Christ purchased through His blood. He tore the veil in two, no barrier between man and God.

Sin cannot be a barrier between you and God, because it has been remitted. It may need addressing, especially if its of a habitual nature hindering progress towards your destiny, and revealing your ignorance to the victory God has granted you under grace. The Lord wants the best for us, we are after all His children. He will chastise so that we may develop character. Yet, I have no qualms of being transparent before God as it is a fellowship. However, we, the Lord and I, are reconciled and no sin robs me of what Christ has purchased for me through His suffering. The Lord isn't waiting for me to ask for forgiveness so that He can speak to me, He will just speak to me and what needs addressing will be addressed. He knows when I am sorry in my heart, He knows us through and through.

 

[Quantrill]

Where do you get this idea that God is waiting for you to ask for forgiveness to be good with Him again (i.e., parental forgiveness)? Where in the NT epistles of Paul, for example, do you see any mention of what would be an extremely important doctrine (to restore fellowship through sin confession)? In all of these epistles so much emphasis is placed upon our walk, walking in the Spirit, and who we are in Christ (as children of God, redeemed, forgiven, etc) and how it is we are dead to sin and alive unto God. No mention in our walk about the confession of sin to receive forgiveness, on a fellowship level.

Where I believe you err, is that what you assume is a transaction by which your confession grants you forgiveness is that confession grants you transparency, and permits the Lord to let you know He forgives you (not because of your confession) but because you are forgiven in Christ. I know, you're screaming right now about sanctification, and fellowship but such a teaching is contradictory to the reconciliation that Christ purchased through His blood. He tore the veil in two, no barrier between man and God.

Sin cannot be a barrier between you and God, because it has been remitted. It may need addressing, especially if its of a habitual nature hindering progress towards your destiny, and revealing your ignorance to the victory God has granted you under grace. The Lord wants the best for us, we are after all His children. He will chastise so that we may develop character. Yet, I have no qualms of being transparent before God as it is a fellowship. However, we, the Lord and I, are reconciled and no sin robs me of what Christ has purchased for me through His suffering. The Lord isn't waiting for me to ask for forgiveness so that He can speak to me, He will just speak to me and what needs addressing will be addressed. He knows when I am sorry in my heart, He knows us through and through.

Strange you ask where I get the idea of a daily confessing of sins for the forgiveness of sins when (1 John 1:9) is staring you in the face. I gave you other verses before that you did not respond to. Remember? In the Lords prayer, (Matt. 6:11), Jesus taught his disciples to pray 'forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. This is a daily prayer. 'give us this day our daily bread'.

I also gave you the perfect example from Jesus Christ in (John 13:4-10). I see you did not pay attention to it. In these passages Jesus Christ is washing the disciples feet. They are disciples of his, and are already saved, except Judas. Peter rejected this idea of Jesus washing his dirty feet. (13:8) Jesus told him that if can't wash his feet then Peter will have no part with Him. (13:9) To which Peter replied, wash all of me. (13:9) To which Christ replied, no you have already been washed and are clean. You need only to wash your feet. (13:10) "Jesus saith unto him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet...."

This speaks to the daily cleansing as the believer walks in the world. He is saved, washed, but in his walk in this world he is stained with the dirt and evil of this world which involves his own sins also. He needs daily to wash his feet, or rather to have Jesus Christ wash his feet.

This is no new teaching. Paul said in (Eph. 5:25-26) "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word'. See the same order. Christ gave himself for it. Washed completely. That He might cleanse it. Washing of the feet daily. Just as (1 John 1:9) says. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

You say your sin may need addressing. Well, that is what I have been saying. That is what (1 John 1:9) and the other verses I have given are saying. Why not believe them? You say the Lord knows what is in your heart. So what? He knows but wants you to confess it. It is for your benefit, not his. Why pray at all? The Lord knows. Why repent? The Lord knows.

Concerning repentance I see you ignored my question. What do you do when God doesn't allow you to repent? (Heb. 6:3,6)

Quantrill

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes, they had their hopes upon the one day coming Messiah, indeed!!

And I see what you're doing by adding the shed BLOOD of Christ. But, from Moses to the prophets, they were indeed saved. David confirms that within the Book of Psalms. After all, the LAW was for them. Christ opened the doorway for the Gentiles.

They were not saved by the sacrificial system and or any law keeping drivel <--Hebrews/Romans..........your dualistic bolded drivel above is false......and in all honesty proves you really do not know what you are talking about......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The key is knowing that as a Jew 2,000 years ago before Christ came onto the scene, Peter was already saved through the LAW and yearly sin offering.

No one was ever saved by the law. The law was never given to save anyone. Sin offering NEVER caused one sin to be eternally forgiven. Unless you think the author of Hebrews is wrong..

So Peter already knew what it was to have your sins forgiven through burnt offerings.

Well know he owuld not. Because the law condemns. If Jesus did nto die. All. OT saints would be lost right along with the rest of us. Because there would be no salvation

After being with Christ, Peter would have transitioned to understanding God wanted personal relationships. But at the time he denied Christ, he would have always known to repent via the LAW.

You miss the whole point of Jesus when he returned three times asking peter if he loved him. And all three times, (a time for each denial) peter could not say he agape loved Jesus, Yet jesus still said feed his people.

Gods forgiveness is as a father forgives his child. Unconditional. The only condition required. Was the cross.. The law showed this.. Sadly, Like most jews. It seems you did not get that part either.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The bolded is false...NO one was saved that way ever......O.T. believers looked forward in faith to the cross....sorry...law keeping drivel and sacrifical animals did not save one soul.............

Thats why david declared. Sacrifice and burnt offering you did not desire. He understood they could never remove sin.

Sadly. Many jews and many even today have yet to understand this basic truth.