Non-core beliefs

[Adam77]

I've commented about this in other threads but thought it worthy of a thread of its very own.

One of the things I find fascinating is how, for some people, non-core beliefs become inextricably linked to their faith.

For example, some people claim that a mathematical derivation of the age of the Earth purely using the Bible yields a result of 6,000 years or so.
Some people accept this as the actual age of the Earth.

Other people also feel that they've discovered something else numerical in the Bible.
Examples:
1. 144,000 people will go to heaven.
2. The date/year that Jesus will return.

Such derivations are of course completely fallacious.

Without even looking at external physical evidence, a simple application of rational thought should set alarm bells ringing...

If you calculate the age of the Earth NOW to be 6,000 years, then in 10 years time your calculation should yield 16,000 years.
But it doesn't!
How do I know?
Because the information you're using to make the calculation hasn't changed, if only the Bible is used.
You'd still get the same result of you calculate the age of the Earth (purely using the Bible) in 10,000 years in the future or 5,000 years in the past.

In other words, this calculation produces a number that doesn't alter with time, as one would expect when calculating age.

But such beliefs are, firstly, non-core and, secondly, beyond the scope of the information and story that the Bible is meant to convey.

The Bible also tells us to keep our wits about us.

So why is it that such blatant untruths become inextricably linked to some people's faith, to the extent that additional stories are created to support the beliefs (e.g. Satan planted fossils to trick us).

It isn't just numeric beliefs either.

In more happy clappy churches you tend to get a lot of 'faith healers' on the speaking ring, for example.
In these types of churches, the more wild the story you're willing to accept without question, the stronger your faith - or so the culture leads you to believe.

A more general view of this leads to the generalised question of when is a belief part of the core religion or part of the culture of the people?

 

[Adam77]

Thanks for approving, admin.

 

[p_rehbein]

The earth is FLAT, and relatively young..........well, when compared to SOME of the Members here

 

[maxwel]

A more general view of this leads to the generalised question of when is a belief part of the core religion or part of the culture of the people?

This questioned is stated in such an usual way that it doesn't sound like something a Christian would say.

So... are you a Christian?
I can't simply check your profile because you have it hidden so no one can see it.


...

 

[Adam77]

This questioned is stated in such an usual way that it doesn't sound like something a Christian would say.

So... are you a Christian?
I can't simply check your profile because you have it hidden so no one can see it.


...

I've been asked this before when I've asked a pertinent question.

Yes, I'm a Christian.

 

[Adam77]

This questioned is stated in such an usual way that it doesn't sound like something a Christian would say.

So... are you a Christian?
I can't simply check your profile because you have it hidden so no one can see it.


...

I've been thinking about your question quite deeply, and I've answered it above.

I've arrived at the conclusion that I disagree with you.

You said that I've asked the question in such a way that it "doesn't sound like something a Christian would say".
Can you tell me what you mean by this please?

Is it the manner in which I've articulated my point?
My use of language is exacting and specific. This is a good thing.

Is it the fact that I've presented my thoughts in a logical way?
The Bible calls on us to be sceptical and not believe everything we're told.

 

[Hungry]

I've commented about this in other threads but thought it worthy of a thread of its very own.

One of the things I find fascinating is how, for some people, non-core beliefs become inextricably linked to their faith.

For example, some people claim that a mathematical derivation of the age of the Earth purely using the Bible yields a result of 6,000 years or so.
Some people accept this as the actual age of the Earth.

Other people also feel that they've discovered something else numerical in the Bible.
Examples:
1. 144,000 people will go to heaven.
2. The date/year that Jesus will return.

Such derivations are of course completely fallacious.

Without even looking at external physical evidence, a simple application of rational thought should set alarm bells ringing...

If you calculate the age of the Earth NOW to be 6,000 years, then in 10 years time your calculation should yield 16,000 years.
But it doesn't!
How do I know?
Because the information you're using to make the calculation hasn't changed, if only the Bible is used.
You'd still get the same result of you calculate the age of the Earth (purely using the Bible) in 10,000 years in the future or 5,000 years in the past.

In other words, this calculation produces a number that doesn't alter with time, as one would expect when calculating age.

But such beliefs are, firstly, non-core and, secondly, beyond the scope of the information and story that the Bible is meant to convey.

The Bible also tells us to keep our wits about us.

So why is it that such blatant untruths become inextricably linked to some people's faith, to the extent that additional stories are created to support the beliefs (e.g. Satan planted fossils to trick us).

It isn't just numeric beliefs either.

In more happy clappy churches you tend to get a lot of 'faith healers' on the speaking ring, for example.
In these types of churches, the more wild the story you're willing to accept without question, the stronger your faith - or so the culture leads you to believe.

A more general view of this leads to the generalised question of when is a belief part of the core religion or part of the culture of the people?

I too have pondered such accuracy of Biblical accounts and have made this conclusion; If questioning part of the Bible causes you too question the validity of the entire Bible then leave it alone. Personally I think the story of Creation and Eden have meanings not teachable to the carnal learner. To them everything has to be concrete and finite, black or white. Just like Christ taught with parables and abstract spiritual lessons, in opposition to Moses. If people really want to know God they have to understand Him. We do that by questioning.

 

[Adam77]

I too have pondered such accuracy of Biblical accounts and have made this conclusion; If questioning part of the Bible causes you too question the validity of the entire Bible then leave it alone. Personally I think the story of Creation and Eden have meanings not teachable to the carnal learner. To them everything has to be concrete and finite, black or white. Just like Christ taught with parables and abstract spiritual lessons, in opposition to Moses. If people really want to know God they have to understand Him. We do that by questioning.

Excellent viewpoint.
I do disagree that you should leave alone an aspect of the Bible that makes you question further.
As you say, Jesus asks us to question, so I personally think a better approach would be to try and understand.

I should clarify though that some people's 'little extras' don't put me off in any way or make me question the Bible as a whole.

When God had his word translated into every language I don't think this was just the written or spoken language.
I think God's word reaches into our individual lives and situations, and speaks to us wherever we may be.
It has the ability to lead us home from wherever we are when we are called.

I just think that such 'little extras' are blatantly not part of the message, and like you I cannot understand why people not only believe them, but allow them to be so intricately linked to their core faith.

To be honest it's silly that for some people a blatant untruth about the age of the Earth forms part of their faith in Jesus.

 

[Adstar]

I have no problem with people believing that the earth is about 6000 years old..
I do have a Big problem if they then put forward the teaching that if you do not believe the world is 6000 years old you are damned..

The 144,000 being the number of people to have eternity with God can be easily countered using the very scripture used in the same book.. But again i have not heard anyone state that our salvation is dependant on us affirming that only 144,000 will have eternity with God..

The date/year that Jesus will return can only ever be speculation because the Bible makes it clear that no man shall know the hour or the day of the return of Jesus.. But again i have not heard anyone come forward with a date here or on other religous forums and state that people must believe that their date is the correct day or they will be damned..

As for faith healers and other manifestations of the gifts i never rely on signs and wonders.. I wait to see what dopctrines they are preaching.. What doctrines they affirm.. All the signs and wonders are irrelevant to me because i know there can be fake signs and wonders.. Even signs and wonders by the power of satan..

2 Thessalonians 2: KJV
8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"

 

[Adam77]

I have no problem with people believing that the earth is about 6000 years old..
I do have a Big problem if they then put forward the teaching that if you do not believe the world is 6000 years old you are damned..

The 144,000 being the number of people to have eternity with God can be easily countered using the very scripture used in the same book.. But again i have not heard anyone state that our salvation is dependant on us affirming that only 144,000 will have eternity with God..

The date/year that Jesus will return can only ever be speculation because the Bible makes it clear that no man shall know the hour or the day of the return of Jesus.. But again i have not heard anyone come forward with a date here or on other religous forums and state that people must believe that their date is the correct day or they will be damned..

As for faith healers and other manifestations of the gifts i never rely on signs and wonders.. I wait to see what dopctrines they are preaching.. What doctrines they affirm.. All the signs and wonders are irrelevant to me because i know there can be fake signs and wonders.. Even signs and wonders by the power of satan..

2 Thessalonians 2: KJV
8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"

I'm afraid I disagree.

Faith is trust.
Trusting that Jesus is lord and saviour is part of the relationship.

Faith is not an invitation to believe absolutely anything, or an invitation to lay down your God given gift of considered thinking.

Believing in something that is not Biblical, not to mention blatantly false, is not faith.
It's stupidity in all honesty.
What else can it be described as.

I'm not berating the people that believe these things, but their trust that absolutely anything presented to them must be true.
This is a direct contravention of Jesus's instruction to be sceptical and exercise due diligence.

 

[Adam77]

Any other views on this?
I just don't know how to process or view the fact that people allow false non-core beliefs (as I call them) to become part of their faith.

 

[p_rehbein]

Faith is not an invitation to believe absolutely anything, or an invitation to lay down your God given gift of considered thinking.

So, I'm guessing your logical mind has a wee bit of a problem with the Virgin Birth and the Holy Trinity? BOTH of which must be taken on FAITH......???

Seems I remember a Scripture that just might serve you well in the future.........

“Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.”

and, here's another....;

1 Corinthians 3:19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

I am not impressed with folks who try to impress others with their wisdom

 

[Adam77]

So, I'm guessing your logical mind has a wee bit of a problem with the Virgin Birth and the Holy Trinity? BOTH of which must be taken on FAITH......???

Seems I remember a Scripture that just might serve you well in the future.........

“Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.”

and, here's another....;

1 Corinthians 3:19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

I am not impressed with folks who try to impress others with their wisdom

You've misunderstood what I said.

I said faith is trust and part of the relationship with God/Jesus, not an invitation to essentially cease thinking.

If you see faith as basically that, an invitation to lay down your God given ability to exercise considered thinking and perception, how do you hope to keep your wits about you and exercise due diligence as Jesus told us to do?

You're implying that anybody with faith should believe anything they're told by anybody.

Is this what the Bible says...?

I'm not trying to impress anybody by the way.
All I'm doing is exercising thought, something we're all capable of doing and something the Bible instructs us to do.

 

[Noose]

You are trying to remove a speck in people eyes, why don't you remove the forest in your eyes first, in so doing you'll be able to see the speck clearly.
We all fall short in one way or another but God will perfect us all.

 

[JaumeJ]

No one may approache the Father as a philosopher, an intellectual, a scientist of any kind and never as His equal.

If we have not turned and become as children, it is likely there is no kinship with our Father. Praise God, He is worthy, not we.

 

[Dino246]

Any other views on this?
I just don't know how to process or view the fact that people allow false non-core beliefs (as I call them) to become part of their faith.

People don't believe things that they know are false. They believe things that are, in their understanding, true or, in the case of cognitive dissonance (which is unfortunately common) they believe things that are inconsistent with other things they believe, and won't put the effort in to examine what they believe.

As for holding to non-core beliefs, everyone including you does so. Beliefs on secondary matters should be held... but held lightly. There is nothing wrong with holding a view on, for example, Calvinism vs. Arminianism, but considering a fellow believer as inferior because they hold a differing view is just divisive. I strongly suspect that we are all wrong about something or other, no matter how diligently we have studied.

 

[JaumeJ]

Making up terms like "core beliefs" is probably alright for some, but it smacks of confusing the plain talk availed in the Word.

It also reminds me of Scientology when they make up their own vocabulary. Understand when this is done it is not really something inovative other than it is replacing another known and practical word in our vocabulary.

Instead of a possession, the Scientologist would say "a havingness."

Instead of a deed or chore, a scientologisst would say, "a doingness."

People who have conceived of denominational separations oftime add new vocabulary or useage of known vocabulary in order to impress others.

The Bible and its word usage in all languages and translations has enough mystery and good usage of vocabulary for most folks.

 

[preacher4truth]

Making up terms like "core beliefs" is probably alright for some, but it smacks of confusing the plain talk availed in the Word.

OK, you've asserted this as confusing and caste a negative light on it.

What examples do you have to substantiate your claim, and how in your example can you show it does this against the "plain talk availed in the Word?"

People who have conceived of denominational separations oftime add new vocabulary or useage of known vocabulary in order to impress others.

Not sure I'd pretend to know the hearts of others or their motives as in the above. What new vocabulary have these denominations added? (Scientology and other cults aside)

 

[p_rehbein]

You've misunderstood what I said.

I said faith is trust and part of the relationship with God/Jesus, not an invitation to essentially cease thinking.

If you see faith as basically that, an invitation to lay down your God given ability to exercise considered thinking and perception, how do you hope to keep your wits about you and exercise due diligence as Jesus told us to do?

You're implying that anybody with faith should believe anything they're told by anybody.

Is this what the Bible says...?

I'm not trying to impress anybody by the way.
All I'm doing is exercising thought, something we're all capable of doing and something the Bible instructs us to do.

Really? Not trying? Let us review your comment #6:

Is it the manner in which I've articulated my point?
My use of language is exacting and specific. This is a good thing.

Is it the fact that I've presented my thoughts in a logical way?
The Bible calls on us to be sceptical and not believe everything we're told.


Not for nothing, but that sounds a wee bit prideful......

What amuses me is that someone would actually search the Interweb to find a Christian Site, join that Site, and then proceed to reveal to everyone through the use of their exacting and specific language how parts of the Word of God are no more than fairy tales at best, and outright lies at worst. Not sure that is something a Christian should aspire to........is it?

When Scripture tells us to discern the spirits, that does not mean we are to question the Word of God, but question those who translate it in a way that is not in keeping with the Gospel of Christ.

NOW, you show me the Scripture where God said: Go ye forth and use the logic and wisdom, through the use of exacting and specific language, and prove to my children that parts of My Word are no more than fairy tales. Show me that Scripture, and I will sing your praises...............BUT, if you can't...............well..........

 

[Kaps89]

I've commented about this in other threads but thought it worthy of a thread of its very own.

One of the things I find fascinating is how, for some people, non-core beliefs become inextricably linked to their faith.

For example, some people claim that a mathematical derivation of the age of the Earth purely using the Bible yields a result of 6,000 years or so.
Some people accept this as the actual age of the Earth.

Other people also feel that they've discovered something else numerical in the Bible.
Examples:
1. 144,000 people will go to heaven.
2. The date/year that Jesus will return.

Such derivations are of course completely fallacious.

Without even looking at external physical evidence, a simple application of rational thought should set alarm bells ringing...

If you calculate the age of the Earth NOW to be 6,000 years, then in 10 years time your calculation should yield 16,000 years.
But it doesn't!
How do I know?
Because the information you're using to make the calculation hasn't changed, if only the Bible is used.
You'd still get the same result of you calculate the age of the Earth (purely using the Bible) in 10,000 years in the future or 5,000 years in the past.

In other words, this calculation produces a number that doesn't alter with time, as one would expect when calculating age.

But such beliefs are, firstly, non-core and, secondly, beyond the scope of the information and story that the Bible is meant to convey.

The Bible also tells us to keep our wits about us.

So why is it that such blatant untruths become inextricably linked to some people's faith, to the extent that additional stories are created to support the beliefs (e.g. Satan planted fossils to trick us).

It isn't just numeric beliefs either.

In more happy clappy churches you tend to get a lot of 'faith healers' on the speaking ring, for example.
In these types of churches, the more wild the story you're willing to accept without question, the stronger your faith - or so the culture leads you to believe.

A more general view of this leads to the generalised question of when is a belief part of the core religion or part of the culture of the people?

So I'm a 'new' Christian and did something called an Alpha course that is a very basic introduction to the faith. I have a home church and have recently been spending more time in bible study and with other Christians.

As a new Christian I've found that I actively try and seek time alone with God as an individual rather than in a group or with other people. I feel that this helps centre me and leaves me less open to what you describe. If I'm ever in doubt I head straight for the Bible.

T